Oklahoma Execution Botched

[Coatimundi]

Do murderers escape prison and murder again?

The answer is of course yes.

I admit to being uninformed, which may explain why I can not think of any instances of this happening. Could you tell us about some cases when this occurred in the US (or other Western country, if you live there)

 

[Hopey]

Rin,
We have in our town a penal farm, correctional facility. It has now, within 2 years, had riots in it that have resulted in deaths of other inmates. They say it is due to gangs (high percentage of opposing gang members in the facility).

The reason I mention this is our family is actively involved in trying to help, offering education to the prisoners. They are not just thrown in but offered education, continuing (college), etc.

What makes our situation, rehabilitate, different than those in the UK regarding offering education?

Our situation has become so serious that the cost to undo the damage done to the facility (they actually took over a pod for a day or so - criminals) that it would be cheaper to just build another instead of fixing the remaining one and what our adjoining city who uses it is considering.

What are you doing differently that we are not? That is the burning question in my mind.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Didn’t this man shoot a 19 year old woman and bury her alive imagine how she felt as she slowly suffocated he even confesses that he heard her screaming and crying sorry I’m going Old Testament and saying
Exodus 21:12-14 12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

Here’s a video of his confession and some details of his crime

I know as catholics we should be against capital punishment but imagine if this girl was your child he buried alive would you feel sympathy for him he suffered maybe 30 minutes of a heart attack this girl suffered much more. Even his own mother shouldn’t feel sympathy she should feel immense shame for what her son did
God forgive me for being uncharitable and not having sympathy

-As Catholics we should be against the unjust usage of capital punishment. Capital punishment itself is not immoral, it is the justness or unjustness of its usage that makes it moral or immoral.
-Not having sympathy or little sympathy for this man is perfectly natural, but our faith calls us to rise above what is natural.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

And I believe this is a related question.

What makes America different than virtually all developed countries in the world who have done away with Capital Punishment.

What is it about America which, regarding Capital Punishment, in the same catagory as China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea etc etc.?

Shallow caricature of a complex issue to allow for a comparison of one country with a vastly different country in order to prove one’s argument? Well the UK does share an obsession with tea along with China, SA, and most of the other ME countries, soccer with SA and most of the other ME countries, and is a monarchy like SA. The fact that the UK’s history and culture are vastly different than these other countries doesn’t matter since the all love their tea right? No, that can’t possibly be a factor. It’s the tea that makes these other countries “less developed” and “bad actors.” I guess if the UK wants to be “developed” and a “good guy” it needs to outlaw tea.

 

[Rin]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the UK, hasn’t it been shown that police are not recording all crimes and also giving out a LOT of warning before an arrest (50 in some cases)?

I am all for looking at better ways of doing this. But I would like accurate information and if in fact what we consider criminals are being caught/something done.

I don’t know that much about the UK, but it would not surprise me if the police gave out a lot of warnings before making an arrest, at least in some cases.

Where I live, I think crimes like possession of drugs in small amounts generally won’t lead to arrest, and if they do, it’s mainly to have the offender’s blood drawn and so on. If it’s “only” possession, they may give a fine, which would also give a criminal record - handy for later encounters. But often, especially if it’s cannabis, they simply confiscate the drugs and go on. I think the only times possession of drugs for personal use leads to jail time, is if it is combined with other crimes.

The same would go for most petty crime - offenders are rarely arrested, and when they are, they’re let go within a few days (but obviously summoned later if it goes to trial). For smaller crimes, I think prison is rarely used unless there are aggravating circumstances - generally a fine or social service will do. The latter is basically involuntary volunteering, in substitute of jail. If the offender doesn’t show, it will be converted to jail time.

And I believe this is a related question.

What makes America different than virtually all developed countries in the world who have done away with Capital Punishment.

What is it about America which, regarding Capital Punishment, in the same catagory as China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea etc etc.?

Good question, and I don’t really have a good answer. But I think it is systemic - for it to change, the whole system has to change. Obviously, asking the criminals to change isn’t going to work, which is why I think the system has to change.

Also remember that Europe wasn’t always like it is now. We’ve had our fair share of being “hard on crime” too (the most extreme example probably being mandatory death sentence for petty theft in the UK, if I remember right from my history lesson), and it didn’t really work well. Rehabilitation rates and the general crime rates have improved since the systems were changed, and I doubt this is a coincident. It is worsening in some countries now due to larger social and economic inequality, but if those countries try to handle that by reverting how we handle crime, I think it’ll get even worse, since the groups in question will then feel even more marginalized.

Rin,
We have in our town a penal farm, correctional facility. It has now, within 2 years, had riots in it that have resulted in deaths of other inmates. They say it is due to gangs (high percentage of opposing gang members in the facility).

The reason I mention this is our family is actively involved in trying to help, offering education to the prisoners. They are not just thrown in but offered education, continuing (college), etc.

(…)

What are you doing differently that we are not? That is the burning question in my mind.

As above, I’m not really sure. But from what I’ve gathered, prisons as well as correctional facilities in the States tend to house a big amount of people, and in the case of prisons, often tightly packed. I think this may play a role.

Most correctional facilities like you describe only host like 10-15 “clients” here. They often have more employees than “clients”. While prisons obviously have higher capacity than that, they’re generally a lot smaller than in the States too. Even our highest capacity, high security prisons probably would be considered small elsewhere. Now obviously we are a small country, about six million or so, but if we compare to a similar state in the US, I would not be surprised if there were not only bigger, but more, prisons compared to here.

In addition there’s of course the thing about material standards and activities. While I won’t cry if a mass murderer doesn’t get to watch the last episode of Grey’s, I’m not opposed to giving him or her a TV based on good behavior. Generally, if there’s incentive to act well, most people will act well; even those who have committed murder. Prisons here have better facilities than in most countries, but if the prisoner violates rules, they’re still put in solitary or lose single privileges. Obviously, if your choice is between a “hotel room” and a solitary cell, you’ll prefer the hotel room… The same goes for activities - if you can choose between doing something fruitful (handiwork, academic studies, vocational training) or staring out a tiny window in a solitary cell, most people will choose the former.

So basically I think it comes down to smaller facilities and quality of life IF you behave well. On a societal scale, I also think comes down to the fact that incarceration is “rare” - a minority of cases end with it. Most sentences are conditional, even for things like burglary. Unless the perpetrator makes another offense, he or she will never see the inside of a prison wall. Sometimes they’re also obliged to see a probation officer at specific intervals. In addition, the “volunteer”-style sentences I mentioned above are used a lot, and they’re generally done in businesses or organizations which do work that is good for society. The perpetrator generally won’t even see another criminal while serving time. So out of the more “common” first-time offenses, few end up in prison, which again means they don’t meet seasoned criminals during their first sentence. For many, that sentence then becomes their only sentence.

 

[ringil]

Shallow caricature of a complex issue to allow for a comparison of one country with a vastly different country in order to prove one’s argument? Well the UK does share an obsession with tea along with China, SA, and most of the other ME countries, soccer with SA and most of the other ME countries, and is a monarchy like SA. The fact that the UK’s history and culture are vastly different than these other countries doesn’t matter since the all love their tea right? No, that can’t possibly be a factor. It’s the tea that makes these other countries “less developed” and “bad actors.” I guess if the UK wants to be “developed” and a “good guy” it needs to outlaw tea.

No it is a valid question.

Tea, soccer, et al. are not societal structures. Capital Punishment is a huge construct with social implications related to societal attitudes towards crime, punishment, rehabilitation, justice, etc etc.

The fact that the US shares company with nations which, I presume, most of us don’t consider developed, or even a desirable place to live.

This says SOMETHING.

I am asking. What does it say.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

No it is a valid question.

Tea, soccer, et al. are not societal structures. Capital Punishment is a huge construct with social implications related to societal attitudes towards crime, punishment, rehabilitation, justice, etc etc.

The fact that the US shares company with nations which, I presume, most of us don’t consider developed, or even a desirable place to live.

This says SOMETHING.

I am asking. What does it say.

It’s not a valid question because your entire point hinges on the US, SA, China, N. Korea, and Iran all sharing one aspect in common. It would be valid if the US had some sort of deeper cultural/social linkage to these other states than just that they all use capital punishment.

But, let’s go with the shallow caricature. The UK and SA are both monarchies, both have had a long history of involvement with other states in the ME, both have the drinking of tea as a major social/cultural norm, both share a cultural/social norm concerning the sport of soccer, and the UK not the US is the historic state that SA turns to in garnering the education of its ruling class and for foreign advisors. Congrats, the UK is much more of a bad guy than the US because as I have shown it has more in common with a bad guy (SA) than the US does.

If you really want to link the usage of capital punishment in the US with these other countries, you need to show how the US is similar in practice, legal grounding, historic usage, etc in regards to capital punishment with these other states. You then also have to show how the impact of the differences in the above can be controlled for or discounted in order to prove your argument.

It’s also odd that Japan, yet another country that can be shown through a broad, shallow comparison to be closer in character to the UK than the US, wasn’t mentioned on your original list.

 

[Ender]

Imposition of a just penalty does not, in itself, reduce human dignity.

Exactly in the same way that fines and imprisonment do not imply a disregard for personal property or freedom, neither does the death penalty suggest a disregard for human dignity. To the contrary, if these things were not seen as good they would not constitute punishments, and the greatest punishment is to deprive someone of the greatest good.

The question is whether capital punishment is an appropriate and just consequence for the commission of a heinous act.

If capital punishment was not an appropriate and just punishment the church would not have recognized a state’s right to impose it. The fact that the church has always recognized that right demonstrates that she has never found this punishment to be unjust.

This is the Church’s considered judgement on the issue, it is not the final word. It isn’t incorrect. It is a compelling argument, but it isn’t a doctrine of the Church.

True, it is a prudential argument that in this particular case capital ought not be used for practical, not doctrinal, reasons. I don’t accept, however, that this is “the Church’s considered judgement” because the “church” doesn’t make such judgments, individuals do.…prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. (Cardinal Dulles)
Ender

 

[minkymurph]

What I don’t get about lethal injections is at Dignitas in Switzerland they just give you something to drink and you die quickly and peacefully.

I believe Hemlock did the job for Socrates. Why can’t they get the drug right for lethal injections?

 

[GEddie]

What I don’t get about lethal injections is at Dignitas in Switzerland they just give you something to drink and you die quickly and peacefully.

I believe Hemlock did the job for Socrates. Why can’t they get the drug right for lethal injections?

Or just a huge overdose of cocaine?

I mean, it’s not like evidence lockers all over NA aren’t full of the stuff.

That would also eliminate the “suffering” aspect, since those who pay to use it aren’t paying to “suffer.”

The problem is that many lifetime drug users have bad veins.

In which case, like a friend once said, “everybody has a neck.”

Bring the nooses out of the Western museums.

Or, since we as a nation are too squeamish for that, I have a gentler proposal: just let everybody breathe!

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Rin]

What I don’t get about lethal injections is at Dignitas in Switzerland they just give you something to drink and you die quickly and peacefully.

I believe Hemlock did the job for Socrates. Why can’t they get the drug right for lethal injections?

There are some stories of things going horribly wrong in Dignitas clinics too, with people dying after hours of suffering, with little to no intervention due to legal matters. I’m not sure if this was when they tested other methods of suicide, or drugs not working as they should, but the “speed and peacefulness” of euthanasia is largely propaganda.

That said, obviously, when supervised by a doctor, there is less chance of basic things going wrong, like the drugs going into surrounding tissue instead of the blood vessel, and so on. There’s also less chance of miscalculation of dose, and so on. But then doctors aren’t allowed to directly participate in an execution, due to their oath. How (some) doctors can justify euthanasia under that oath is beyond me, but not a reason for having them do executions too.

I think, however, that even if a doctor administered the drugs, it wouldn’t be more humane than older methods. They may look “worse”, but they’re really only worse to watch. Which is a consideration I really oppose - if the people wants executions, then let them have executions, not something masquerading as a medical procedure. In addition, if someone if sentenced to death by their peers, then the peers should be present for the execution. Since the jury represents the people, I actually think the execution should be public, for the people to see; if the people can’t stomach watching one, then they have no business demanding it. But at the very least, the entire jury should be in the witness room, and if they’re not (of course except when a jury member is dead or incapacitated), the verdict should not be carried out.

Lastly, there should be no carpet to draw when things go sour. This custom of covering up what’s happening so not even the appointed observers can see what’s going on protects the correctional facility, and no one else. It removes the entire point of having observers. And if witnesses can’t stomach watching it when it goes sour, they have no business to be there. If the jury was made to be there, and couldn’t stomach watching it, they had no business passing such a verdict.

I think I’ve made my view on the death penalty clear earlier, but I actually mean this: If a country wants to have the death penalty, I respect public decapitations more than I do private quasi-medical “death liturgies”.

 

[minkymurph]

There are some stories of things going horribly wrong in Dignitas clinics too, with people dying after hours of suffering, with little to no intervention due to legal matters. I’m not sure if this was when they tested other methods of suicide, or drugs not working as they should, but the “speed and peacefulness” of euthanasia is largely propaganda.

That said, obviously, when supervised by a doctor, there is less chance of basic things going wrong, like the drugs going into surrounding tissue instead of the blood vessel, and so on. There’s also less chance of miscalculation of dose, and so on. But then doctors aren’t allowed to directly participate in an execution, due to their oath. How (some) doctors can justify euthanasia under that oath is beyond me, but not a reason for having them do executions too.

I think, however, that even if a doctor administered the drugs, it wouldn’t be more humane than older methods. They may look “worse”, but they’re really only worse to watch. Which is a consideration I really oppose - if the people wants executions, then let them have executions, not something masquerading as a medical procedure. In addition, if someone if sentenced to death by their peers, then the peers should be present for the execution. Since the jury represents the people, I actually think the execution should be public, for the people to see; if the people can’t stomach watching one, then they have no business demanding it. But at the very least, the entire jury should be in the witness room, and if they’re not (of course except when a jury member is dead or incapacitated), the verdict should not be carried out.

Lastly, there should be no carpet to draw when things go sour. This custom of covering up what’s happening so not even the appointed observers can see what’s going on protects the correctional facility, and no one else. It removes the entire point of having observers. And if witnesses can’t stomach watching it when it goes sour, they have no business to be there. If the jury was made to be there, and couldn’t stomach watching it, they had no business passing such a verdict.

I think I’ve made my view on the death penalty clear earlier, but I actually mean this: If a country wants to have the death penalty, I respect public decapitations more than I do private quasi-medical “death liturgies”.

I don’t agree with capital punishment but beheading is supposed to be the most humane. I believe in Saudi they stitch the head back on before they return the body to the relative for burial.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t agree with capital punishment but beheading is supposed to be the most humane. I believe in Saudi they stitch the head back on before they return the body to the relative for burial.

Possibly the most frightening for the condemned, though.

 

[Rin]

I don’t agree with capital punishment but beheading is supposed to be the most humane. I believe in Saudi they stitch the head back on before they return the body to the relative for burial.

I think long-drop hanging is by many supposed to be the most humane method if executed properly, but then there’s a lot of room for failure due to the importance of placement of the noose and length of the rope. So yes, given the beheading is either done by someone well trained in using a sword, or by a properly functioning guillotine, it’s probably the most humane.

I wasn’t actually aware they stitch the head back on, it’s at least better than where (or when, rather) families get a headless corpse.

In either case, I’m obviously no big fan of Saudi Arabia, and I by no means wish to see public executions in the States. But I mean what I said; I’d much rather see public executions than the current circus. Not least because I think that a population which demands executions, also should have to witness them.

 

[Hopey]

I think long-drop hanging is by many supposed to be the most humane method if executed properly, but then there’s a lot of room for failure due to the importance of placement of the noose and length of the rope. So yes, given the beheading is either done by someone well trained in using a sword, or by a properly functioning guillotine, it’s probably the most humane.

I wasn’t actually aware they stitch the head back on, it’s at least better than where (or when, rather) families get a headless corpse.

In either case, I’m obviously no big fan of Saudi Arabia, and I by no means wish to see public executions in the States. But I mean what I said; I’d much rather see public executions than the current circus. Not least because I think that a population which demands executions, also should have to witness them.

In Saudi, they execute in a public square on Fridays, if there is one schedule. If you are a foreigner and in the vicinity, they will drag you to the front to watch - so you will know what their punishment is. But, also there, there is no such thing as being taken care of in prison/jail. Food is brought by family friends. The ones that go missing are the scariest as those I do believe involve torture.

But, what a strange country we will be in when there is no more death penalty but legalized euthanasia and the killing of the unborn. If we get there, we are on the right path, I can see life sentence prisoners fighting for their right to die by euthanasia. We will be totally upside down then and I don’t think any amount of “gun control” will keep those from becoming more murderous especially for vengeance as the courts will likely let people walk, or short sentence due to no money for housing them etc. I think then it will be worse than the wild west was - undeveloped.

 

[Peter_Plato]

-As Catholics we should be against the unjust usage of capital punishment. Capital punishment itself is not immoral, it is the justness or unjustness of its usage that makes it moral or immoral.
-Not having sympathy or little sympathy for this man is perfectly natural, but our faith calls us to rise above what is natural.

This is very much in line with where I stand on the issue.

This aspect of “just usage” is beginning to enlighten one of the reasons I am generally opposed to the practice of capital punishment, and that isn’t because I think capital punishment is inherently unjust. There is a reason why all men, at least in our current state, are mortal. God, who is Justice Itself, has definitively determined that capital sin justly merits capital punishment - thus we all have a sentence of death hanging over us. That cannot be unjust given that it has been handed down by the Just Judge.

I don’t believe the call for capital punishment need necessarily arise from a lack of sympathy since, in the core of my being there lives a deep realization that had I, myself, wantonly murdered an innocent human being, a sentence of execution would be a just one. That realization is purely from a sense of justice and not vengeance, since it seems to make little sense to accuse myself of being vengeful against myself.

What does give pause, however, is the certain knowledge that human beings are to a large or small extent a product of their culture and upbringing. At least some moral failures are moral failures that we all bear some responsibility for. It is that admixture of evil influences in the formation and upbringing of young children that is, at least, in part responsible for the capital moral crimes of individuals.

To what extent these mitigate culpability is an open question and no doubt differs from individual to individual guilty of these types of crimes. It is the fact that the social, moral and psychological causes of these kinds of heinous acts are so little understood and taken into account that makes the issue of just punishment a difficult one, especially when being applied universally as if all cases are presumed to be the same in these important respects.

If some unspeakable and traumatic abuse suffered in childhood, unknown to the legal system, triggered this kind sadistic behaviour later in life, to what extent is the perpetrator justifiably held to be responsible?

This is not an argument against capital punishment per se, but it does raise serious concerns about how we determine culpability in individual cases. The unknowns are not so much whether innocent victims are convicted by judicial error or malfeasance - though these do occur - but rather whether authentic culpability is within the capacity of the judicial system to determine.

 

[Hopey]

This is very much in line with where I stand on the issue.

This aspect of “just usage” is beginning to enlighten one of the reasons I am generally opposed to the practice of capital punishment, and that isn’t because I think capital punishment is inherently unjust. There is a reason why all men, at least in our current state, are mortal. God, who is Justice Itself, has definitively determined that capital sin justly merits capital punishment - thus we all have a sentence of death hanging over us. That cannot be unjust given that it has been handed down by the Just Judge.

I don’t believe the call for capital punishment need necessarily arise from a lack of sympathy since, in the core of my being there lives a deep realization that had I, myself, wantonly murdered an innocent human being, a sentence of execution would be a just one. That realization is purely from a sense of justice and not vengeance, since it seems to make little sense to accuse myself of being vengeful against myself.

What does give pause, however, is the certain knowledge that human beings are to a large or small extent a product of their culture and upbringing. At least some moral failures are moral failures that we all bear some responsibility for. It is that admixture of evil influences in the formation and upbringing of young children that is, at least, in part responsible for the capital moral crimes of individuals.

To what extent these mitigate culpability is an open question and no doubt differs from individual to individual guilty of these types of crimes. It is the fact that the social, moral and psychological causes of these kinds of heinous acts are so little understood and taken into account that makes the issue of just punishment a difficult one, especially when being applied universally as if all cases are presumed to be the same in these important respects.

If some unspeakable and traumatic abuse suffered in childhood, unknown to the legal system, triggered this kind sadistic behaviour later in life, to what extent is the perpetrator justifiably held to be responsible?

This is not an argument against capital punishment per se, but it does raise serious concerns about how we determine culpability in individual cases. The unknowns are not so much whether innocent victims are convicted by judicial error or malfeasance - though these do occur - but rather whether authentic culpability is within the capacity of the judicial system to determine.

Somewhere along the way, they will be offered counseling and find out the only person they can change is themselves. They will find out that being taught X at home wasn’t good, and to some extent, it could be because of that.

At the end of the day, the only person we can change is ourselves and hopefully for them, the prison experience was enough to jolt them into reality and reform. Sometimes it isn’t.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Somewhere along the way, they will be offered counseling and find out the only person they can change is themselves. They will find out that being taught X at home wasn’t good, and to some extent, it could be because of that.

At the end of the day, the only person we can change is ourselves and hopefully for them, the prison experience was enough to jolt them into reality and reform. Sometimes it isn’t.

It is precisely the efficacy of the counseling that I question. Not because of lack of expertise, but because the perpetrators themselves, at least in some cases, may be lost to their own ability to express the depth of their debility. Just as virtually all human beings do not have a clear grasp of the nature of evil and sin within their own beings, these individuals are far less capable of understanding or overcoming it within themselves. That incapacity may be self-inflicted in some cases, but it is not necessarily in all.

 

[Hopey]

It is precisely the efficacy of the counseling that I question. Not because of lack of expertise, but because the perpetrators themselves, at least in some cases, may be lost to their own ability to express the depth of their debility. Just as virtually all human beings do not have a clear grasp of the nature of evil and sin within their own beings, these individuals are far less capable of understanding or overcoming it within themselves. That incapacity may be self-inflicted in some cases, but it is not necessarily in all.

I am listening, right now, to a Dr who has been treating in that setting who knows that the model that is being used is wrong as it is set up for a neurotic person. What he has found is character disorder with maybe some other things occurring. But that is why all of this counseling is not helping with them. What doesn’t help most of these is looking at them as a victim of circumstances only because that takes away their freedom, etc.

I agree about evil/sin. That is where our religious/lay people step up in lay ministry.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I admit to being uninformed, which may explain why I can not think of any instances of this happening. Could you tell us about some cases when this occurred in the US (or other Western country, if you live there)

You can simply google it for famous cases. There are plenty of less famous cases, but they are considered newsworthy and aren’t typically reported. That’s just for the U.S. The things that go on in the prison systems in other countries can be pretty wicked.