Old Question -- Any New Answers?

[Luvya]

That is not true. God has said yes to many of my prayers.

Good for you. I don’t even doubt that you actually believe what you say. But your testimonial means nothing to me. Millions of people keep praying to God to alleviate the pain, suffering and misery. They pray with faith in their heart, and nothing happens. Earthquakes keep happening, disasters keep striking, people perish indiscriminately, good people have horrible tiems, really evil people have a great life… does not look like that God CARES.

Now, it is easy to ensure that God will fulfill what you pray for: “pray for something that will happen anyhow”, like pray for warm weather in the summer, and pray for cold weather in the winter… you will get a very good track record of your prayers. But if you pray for something that is not likely to happen anyhow…

God has provided a planet with everything that is needed to cloth, shelter, and feed the entire population. Yet by the greed of man people are naked, homeless, and starving.

I don’t know which planet are you on? Because it cannot be Earth, that is for sure.

Also that is not an excuse. If people cannot provide the help, even when they try (and try very hard) God still does not interfere. Miners are stuck underground, they die a horrible, slow death, their families are suffer. People put all their efforts into a rescue effort, try to save them… and what God does? Nothing.

 

[Pieman333272]

Luvya, you still haven’t presented a logically deductible form of the problem of evil, even after I agreed to all your axioms. Are you able to present one? Or is it only your opinion?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=

Luvya;7949566]
Good for you. I don’t even doubt that you actually believe what you say. But your testimonial means nothing to me. Millions of people keep praying to God to alleviate the pain, suffering and misery. They pray with faith in their heart, and nothing happens. Earthquakes keep happening, disasters keep striking, people perish indiscriminately, good people have horrible tiems, really evil people have a great life… does not look like that God CARES.

All the bad that you write about has come about because of mans disobedience.

Now, it is easy to ensure that God will fulfill what you pray for: “pray for something that will happen anyhow”, like pray for warm weather in the summer, and pray for cold weather in the winter… you will get a very good track record of your prayers. But if you pray for something that is not likely to happen anyhow…

Like a person lying in coma not able to breath without a ventilator, bleeding internally, That they be healed? That the Dcotors have said we are losing him get to the hospital now he’s dieing.
And guess what he lives. Does God answer all prayers in that situtation the same? No. but in my case in at that time he said yes. Three years earlier when My granmother was dying from a stroke He said no and took her home to him. The year prior to that when my other Grandmother was dieing fron cancer he said no and took her home to him. But on that day with my Brother he said yes and healed his body.

I don’t know which planet are you on? Because it cannot be Earth, that is for sure.

What do we need that is not provided by the Earth that we are on?

Also that is not an excuse. If people cannot provide the help, even when they try (and try very hard) God still does not interfere. Miners are stuck underground, they die a horrible, slow death, their families are suffer. People put all their efforts into a rescue effort, try to save them… and what God does? Nothing.

In almost every case of those miners it has been shone that the safety standards were not met by the comany. Greed again cutting corners to make more money. Man abusees his fellow man and God is suppose to fix it and let allow free will? God protected them from being injured in the process of the resecue. Do you not see the paridox? God is suppose to make everything perfect at the same time not inferre with the free will of man. Food is sent to starving people in poor countries and the currupt goverments keep it from getting to those that need it.

Aid is sent to people in disaster areas, but they do not get it because it not the kind of aid they want. It like the parent that tells the child do not touch the stove because its hot and will burn you. The child then touches the stove and is mad at the perent because it got burned.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=bigquests;7947801]I am quoting the words of Jesus in the gospel of Luke in the version I quoted. No, no one is asking God to give him/her everything, just not give a scorpion when one asks for an egg, to paraphrase Jesus.

How does Gods answer of no equal giving a scorpion?

And no, I wouldn’t necessarily believe everything on YouTube as real, but if someone alleges a ‘miracle’, I would sure insist on some real 21th century evidence.

And what might that be? Look at your hand think about all the parts to just one hand. it is a miricule that it does what it does. And the eye same thing/ Evey man, woman, and child on thins planet is a miracule. I prayed to God to cure the pain in my feet, Then I saw a man that had no legs.

 

[Luvya]

Luvya, you still haven’t presented a logically deductible form of the problem of evil, even after I agreed to all your axioms. Are you able to present one? Or is it only your opinion?

I am sorry. It seemed that your asked me a question in your last post, this one: “Right. I’m saying, if I actually offer a sufficient explanation but cannot confirm that it is actually the case, does that or does that not pass by your radar?” To which I replied: “How could I know without seeing it? Let’s give it a try. I will do my best to see your points as you intend them.” So I was under the impression that you wish to give me more information. You also said: “I’ll need to look it over again, but I have to be quick here for possible enhancements. I’ll post that later.” That was also a reason why I was waiting.

Looks like I was mistaken. Let me get back into my mindset, and present the axioms - just to be safe.

 

[Luvya]

All the bad that you write about has come about because of mans disobedience.

Nonsense. “Disobedience” is not a big deal. It does not merit to be chased out of the house. It does not give the parent the excuse not to feed that child or take care of it.

Like a person lying in coma not able to breath without a ventilator, bleeding internally, That they be healed? That the Dcotors have said we are losing him get to the hospital now he’s dieing. And guess what he lives.

The doctors were wrong in their prediction. There are so many problematic cases, so many diagnoses, that some of them bound to go into a remission by themselves.

Does God answer all prayers in that situtation the same? No.

So there is no need to assume that he does.

In almost every case of those miners it has been shone that the safety standards were not met by the comany.

Baloney. Next time you will say that the tsunami in Japan was attributed to some greed. Get real.

God is suppose to make everything perfect at the same time not inferre with the free will of man.

I don’t consider the “free will” of criminals “sacrosanct”. We interfere with that “free will” on a daily basis,and there is nothing wrong with it. There is no excuse for a benevolent deity. A benevolent person does not seek excuses, does not try to outsource the helping hand, does not care who or what caused the problem, a benevolent person goes and HELPS. Especially if it does not cost him anything.

 

[Pieman333272]

I am sorry. It seemed that your asked me a question in your last post, this one: “Right. I’m saying, if I actually offer a sufficient explanation but cannot confirm that it is actually the case, does that or does that not pass by your radar?” To which I replied: “How could I know without seeing it? Let’s give it a try. I will do my best to see your points as you intend them.” So I was under the impression that you wish to give me more information. You also said: “I’ll need to look it over again, but I have to be quick here for possible enhancements. I’ll post that later.” That was also a reason why I was waiting.

Looks like I was mistaken. Let me get back into my mindset, and present the axioms - just to be safe.

For the first one, I didn’t want to distract the point by me posting a sufficient explanation before you posted the form of the argument I wanted. I think I did the part where I looked it over again, remember? I commented on instant vs better jobs of fixing evil?

 

[tonyrey]

Not relevant. Tony said that having positive knowledge about God’s existence would rob us of our free will.

False! Being compelled to believe in God’s existence does not entailing believing in everything else against our will…

 

[tonyrey]

We would know that God exists, that is for sure. But we would not be compelled to love or worship God. So our “free will” would still be there.

If you’re not an idiot you wouldn’t just ignore the fact that He exists!

 

[razredge]

The same question has been asked on another thread: Creationism and life in general.

The answer? Coercive miracles would defeat the purpose of giving us free will.

No, that’s ridiculous - canonization is based on these ‘coercive miracles’

The simple reason is that God intervenes only on very rare occasions.

 

[Luvya]

False! Being compelled to believe in God’s existence does not entailing believing in everything else against our will…

This is what you said: “Coercive miracles would defeat the purpose of giving us free will.” “Coercive miracles” would give us actual, positive proof that God exists - and that would make our free will “purposeless”. So now you say that we would still have free will, but it would be purposeless? But it gets worse… see below:

If you’re not an idiot you wouldn’t just ignore the fact that He exists!

Wow. Right above you argue that having positive knowledge about God’s existence would make our free will puposeless. Now you argue that only an idiot would ignore that God’s existence is a fact. Here is your syllogism:

1. We know as a fact that God exists (unless we are idiots ).
2. If one has a positive knowledge about God’s existence, then his free will beccomes purposeless.
3. Therefore the free will of the non-idiot people is now purposeless. (Idiots may still have a purpose for their free will?)

 

[razredge]

Wow. Right above you argue that having positive knowledge about God’s existence would make our free will puposeless. Now you argue that only an idiot would ignore that God’s existence is a fact. Here is your syllogism:

1. We know as a fact that God exists (unless we are idiots ).
2. If one has a positive knowledge about God’s existence, then his free will beccomes purposeless.
3. Therefore the free will of the non-idiot people is now purposeless. (Idiots may still have a purpose for their free will?)

Yes, tony has argued himself into a corner again. The only way of reconciling the problem is to believe in a non-interventionist God.

His statement on ‘coercive miracles’ is simply false by the way, as believers in apparitions like Fatima or Lourdes base their faith in these events precisely on such ‘coercive miracles’.
I mean by definition it wouldn’t be much of a miracle if it isn’t ‘coercive’

 

[vz71]

His statement on ‘coercive miracles’ is simply false by the way, as believers in apparitions like Fatima or Lourdes base their faith in these events precisely on such ‘coercive miracles’.
I mean by definition it wouldn’t be much of a miracle if it isn’t ‘coercive’

Is your problem with the arguments placed solely on this definition of miracle?
If so, I believe you are mistaken.

One need only argue with someone that disbelieves a well documented miracle to understand that they are not necessarily coercive.

 

[bigquests]

That is not true. God has said yes to many of my prayers. My mothers loves me very much, but at a point in my life were in was not living be her rules and the way she saw that was right she kicked me out of the house. it was the best thing for her to do for me.
I love my brother very much, and he had no were to go I took him in. He would not live by my rules I put him out.

God has provided a planet with everything that is needed to cloth, shelter, and feed the entire population. Yet by the greed of man people are naked, homeless, and starving.
People need to realize that the ills of the world are our doing not Gods. If we want a perfect World we have to live as he told us.

No, if we lived in a perfect world we would WANT to live as He wished us.

God could have made is with a strong tendency to do good, but still have free will. Not with a strong desire to do evil.

 

[bigquests]

=

All the bad that you write about has come about because of mans disobedience.

Like a person lying in coma not able to breath without a ventilator, bleeding internally, That they be healed? That the Dcotors have said we are losing him get to the hospital now he’s dieing.
And guess what he lives. Does God answer all prayers in that situtation the same? No. but in my case in at that time he said yes. Three years earlier when My granmother was dying from a stroke He said no and took her home to him. The year prior to that when my other Grandmother was dieing fron cancer he said no and took her home to him. But on that day with my Brother he said yes and healed his body.

What do we need that is not provided by the Earth that we are on?

In almost every case of those miners it has been shone that the safety standards were not met by the comany. Greed again cutting corners to make more money. Man abusees his fellow man and God is suppose to fix it and let allow free will? God protected them from being injured in the process of the resecue. Do you not see the paridox? God is suppose to make everything perfect at the same time not inferre with the free will of man. Food is sent to starving people in poor countries and the currupt goverments keep it from getting to those that need it.

Aid is sent to people in disaster areas, but they do not get it because it not the kind of aid they want. It like the parent that tells the child do not touch the stove because its hot and will burn you. The child then touches the stove and is mad at the perent because it got burned.

…any details on the miracle involving your brother…?

 

[bigquests]

Here’s a link regarding Pellicer, an alleged ‘cure’ of an amputee in rural Spain in the 17thc.

skeptoid.com/episodes/4247

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

FONT=“Verdana”]
Good for you. I don’t even doubt that you actually believe what you say. But your testimonial means nothing to me. Millions of people keep praying to God to alleviate the pain, suffering and misery. They pray with faith in their heart, and nothing happens. Earthquakes keep happening, disasters keep striking, people perish indiscriminately, good people have horrible tiems, really evil people have a great life… does not look like that God CARES.

I realize that not only mine, but no ones testimonial will mean anything to you. You have set it in your mind that because God does not work things the way you think they should work then he is either not real or does not care or can not do anything about it. In stead of prayers to change the world poeple need to pray to chang themselves. I think you really have to ask to individual about if they have a great or terrible life. Power, wealth and fame do not make a great life niether do the lack of them make for a horrible life.

Now, it is easy to ensure that God will fulfill what you pray for: “pray for something that will happen anyhow”, like pray for warm weather in the summer, and pray for cold weather in the winter… you will get a very good track record of your prayers. But if you pray for something that is not likely to happen anyhow…

Like what I just told you about my brother.

I don’t know which planet are you on? Because it cannot be Earth, that is for sure.

What do we need that the Earth does not provide?

Also that is not an excuse. If people cannot provide the help, even when they try (and try very hard) God still does not interfere. Miners are stuck underground, they die a horrible, slow death, their families are suffer. People put all their efforts into a rescue effort, try to save them… and what God does? Nothing.

Again in the case of most all mine colapes it can be traced to the oweners not following the safety regulations and cutting coners to save money and increase profits. Greed!
Case in point the Nuclear power planet in Japan they had ben told for tenn years that improvemnets and upgrades needed to be made to prevent such problems in just a case like what happened.

I am reminded in talks like this of a little stroy i once heard.

A man is sitting on his porch as flood waters rise. A woman floats by in a boat, asking if the man needs help. “No, thank you,” says the man, “I’m trusting in the Lord.” The waters rise higher, sending the man upstairs. A raft full of people floats by his second story window. “Get in,” they say, “there’s plenty of room.” “No thanks,” says the man, “I’m trusting in the Lord.” The flood waters keep rising, pushing the man up to the roof. A helicopter swoops in, lowering its ladder for the man. “Thanks anyway,” shouts the man, “I’m trusting in the Lord.” Finally, the man is swept away in the torrent and drowns. At the gates of Heaven, the man asks God, “Why didn’t you save me?” "What do you mean?’’ replies God, “I sent two boats and a helicopter.”

You seem to be under the impression that God should part the Red Sea every other day.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=Luvya;7949943]
Nonsense. “Disobedience” is not a big deal. It does not merit to be chased out of the house. It does not give the parent the excuse not to feed that child or take care of it.

so parents have to just deal with any and all behavior of their children? No matter what, The child can be physically and verbally abusive to the parents and other siblings. can steall from the entire family and others, distroy the family property. and the parents just have to deal with it.

The doctors were wrong in their prediction. There are so many problematic cases, so many diagnoses, that some of them bound to go into a remission by themselves.

Yeah I know doctors can be wrong they were going to send him home the next day when he went into the coma and stopped breathing around midnight. At 3 am they called the family to come back to the Hospital.

So there is no need to assume that he does.

And even less to assume he don;t

Baloney. Next time you will say that the tsunami in Japan was attributed to some greed. Get real.

Kind like all the effert that was devert from the help of people to fight the proplem with the nuclear plant theat could have been avioded.

I don’t consider the “free will” of criminals “sacrosanct”. We interfere with that “free will” on a daily basis,and there is nothing wrong with it. There is no excuse for a benevolent deity. A benevolent person does not seek excuses, does not try to outsource the helping hand, does not care who or what caused the problem, a benevolent person goes and HELPS. Especially if it does not cost him anything.

A man is sitting on his porch as flood waters rise. A woman floats by in a boat, asking if the man needs help. “No, thank you,” says the man, “I’m trusting in the Lord.” The waters rise higher, sending the man upstairs. A raft full of people floats by his second story window. “Get in,” they say, “there’s plenty of room.” “No thanks,” says the man, “I’m trusting in the Lord.” The flood waters keep rising, pushing the man up to the roof. A helicopter swoops in, lowering its ladder for the man. “Thanks anyway,” shouts the man, “I’m trusting in the Lord.” Finally, the man is swept away in the torrent and drowns. At the gates of Heaven, the man asks God, “Why didn’t you save me?” "What do you mean?’’ replies God, “I sent two boats and a helicopter.”
Just to repost it a good example. of course you do not see God in those type of things you waiting for the sea to part.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=bigquests;7952928]No, if we lived in a perfect world we would WANT to live as He wished us.

No if we lived in a perfect world we would do his will with out thinking about it would just come naturally. God made the world perfect, Sin by mans fall correupted it.

God could have made is with a strong tendency to do good, but still have free will. Not with a strong desire to do evil.

In the beginging with Adam and Eve the Tendancy for Good was much stronger, But with the first sin the tendancy for Sin has grown.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

…any details on the miracle involving your brother…?

what do you want to know?