Old Yeller in Paradise

[nobody]

batteddy,

Thank you for your interesting thoughts. The one thing I have to comment on, though (and I know I’ll get blasted as a bleeding-heart), is that I’ve never heard candle wax shriek in pain as it melted. I don’t think a straight comparison can be made.

Peace.

 

[batteddy]

Personally, I don’t see the big deal in simply accepting what the Fathers of the Church took for granted, i.e. the terrestrial Paradise still exists, and that Enoch and Elijah are waiting there to come back to earth as the “two witnesses” during the reign of the Antichrist.

But, it is all still terrestrial paradise…it is man that has fallen, not matter.

It is Man’s State-of-Being that is fallen, and un-paradisical: a glorified human would enjoy the current world as paradise (except for the occurences of sins of other humans which they would mourn).

Do Jesus and Mary (glorified), and Elijah and Enoch (unglorified but preserved until the end of time) because of their special condition, need to live in some special “place”? Does “where” this place is matter?

I tend to see Elijah and Enoch as being kept in suspended animation somewhere by God. Frozen, “asleep”, perhaps conscious of somethings, but generally just in waiting. It doesn’t really matter if this is on some planet somewhere, or in their own little bubbles of space outside of our dimension and universe. The point is their state of being: preservation and suspended animation…not “where” this is happening.

And with Jesus and Mary, because they are glorified, it also doesn’t really matter “where” they are. It matters “how” they are, and the answer is Ressurected and Glorified. It is their state of being (ressurected and glorified) that makes their bodies “in heaven”, because heaven is a state of being, not a place. They probably exist in their own little bubble of space outside creation, waiting in glory of their return at the end of time, but hypothetically they could exist on any planet or anything, even a cold barren planet, because to an immortal glorified person…the whole Creation is still paradise.

 

[nobody]

batteddy:

And with Jesus and Mary, because they are glorified, it also doesn’t really matter “where” they are. It matters “how” they are, and the answer is Ressurected and Glorified. It is their state of being (ressurected and glorified) that makes their bodies “in heaven”, because heaven is a state of being, not a place. They probably exist in their own little bubble of space outside creation, waiting in glory of their return at the end of time, but hypothetically they could exist on any planet or anything, even a cold barren planet, because to an immortal glorified person…the whole Creation is still paradise.

Hold on there.

“I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of **Heaven **and earth…”

Heaven is a part of creation. It is not “outside creation”.

Peace.

 

[batteddy]

I just meant that if they were outside the material universe, not necessarily having the accident of “place” because they existed in a way that made them not relative to anything else spatially.

Of course their bodies would still be creations. And of course the state of being they would be in would be the created grace and glory of heaven.

 

[Matt16_18]

JiimG:

Maybe meat was not eaten in Eden. But any particular plant, once eaten, can’t regrow itself. The tomato I eat today, is gone forever, just as is the cow that provided yesterday’s steak.

You can pluck a tomato off a tomato plant without killing the tomato plant. You can eat an apple from an apple tree without killing the apple tree.

If there was no death in Eden, does that apply to plant death as well as to animal death? Does it apply to bacterial death? Didn’t Adam and Even need good bacteria in their intestines just as we do?

How do you conceive of the terrestrial Paradise? Do you think that when Adam and Eve lived in paradise they had to suffer from poison ivy, biting insects, amoebic dysentery, bodily sickness of every sort – in short, did Adam and Eve suffer from everything that causes us physical pain in this fallen world, except the pain of death?

 

[JimG]

Matt16_18:

How do you conceive of the terrestrial Paradise? Do you think that when Adam and Eve lived in paradise they had to suffer from poison ivy, biting insects, amoebic dysentery, bodily sickness of every sort – in short, did Adam and Eve suffer from everything that causes us physical pain in this fallen world, except the pain of death?

Nope. Before the Fall, they had the preternatural gifts which protected them from suffering and death. I’m not sure whether they even had to eat; so I don’t know if they had normal intestinal bacteria or not. If they ate plants, I would think so. But it’s not a matter that anyone can really know for sure.

Anyway, the idea of Adam and Eve living in Paradise before the Fall does not, for me, particularly contadict the idea of biological evolution, or of cosmological evolution.

 

[Matt16_18]

batteddy:

First, we are Fallen, so our emotions are not in harmony with all goodness.

Secondly, morally speaking, no one is claiming that animal death is good or bad, just neutral … from a cosmic perspective, animal death is naturally good.

Agreed, the emotions of the children of the wrath are not in harmony with all goodness because of the Fall.

My point is about the morality of fallen humans enjoying the spectacle of animals fighting to death – watching pit bulls fight to the death with bulls, watching dogs fight to the death with other dogs, watching bears and bulls maul each other in a pen, etc.

If animal death was in nature before the Fall, then animal death is intrinsically good, since God declared everything that he created before the Fall to be good. If animal death is intrinsically good, then there is nothing immoral about enjoying watching animals fight to the death as a sport. The fact that most people in our society now find these death sports morally repugnant would only indicate that their emotions are not in harmony with all goodness. The truly enlightened Christian would take delight in watching the spectacle of a dogs fighting to death with an enraged bull, since he is watching something intrinsically good!

Humans were not meant to die, but death itself is still good and beautiful taken simply in and of itself, because it exists, and all that exists is good because it is of God.

Where does scriptures teach that the bodily death of a human is “good and beautiful “? The Bible that I read says that bodily death is a punishment for sin, and that death is the enemy of God: God said, `You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’"
Gen 3:3

For the wages of sin is death …
Romans 6:23

And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth … I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die.
Gen 6:13 & 17

Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.

Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Whoever steals a man, whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Whoever lies with a beast shall be put to death.

My heart is in anguish within me,
the terrors of death have fallen upon me.
Psalm 55:4

Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
Psalm 45:14

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15:24-26

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14

 

[Matt16_18]

batteddy:

Humans were not meant to die, but death itself is still good and beautiful taken simply in and of itself, because it exists, and all that exists is good because it is of God.

… God did not make death,
and he does not delight in the death of the living.
For he created all things that they might exist,
and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them;
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
For righteousness is immortal.

But ungodly men by their words and deeds summoned death;
considering him a friend, they pined away,
and they made a covenant with him,
because they are fit to belong to his party.
Wisdom 1:13-15

 

[batteddy]

The sin that causes death is bad, but the punishment comes from God and is therefore good. Sin is the enemy of God. Death is a weapon God uses to COMBAT sin. It is therefore good.

St. Francis:

The Canticle of the Sun by Francis of Assisi
Most high, all powerful, all good Lord! All praise is yours, all glory, all honor, and all blessing. To you, alone, Most High, do they belong. No mortal lips are worthy to pronounce your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures, especially through my lord Brother Sun, who brings the day; and you give light through him. And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendor! Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars; in the heavens you have made them, precious and beautiful.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air, and clouds and storms, and all the weather, through which you give your creatures sustenance.

Be praised, My Lord, through Sister Water; she is very useful, and humble, and precious, and pure.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brother Fire, through whom you brighten the night. He is beautiful and cheerful, and powerful and strong.

Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth, who feeds us and rules us, and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Be praised, my Lord, through those who forgive for love of you; through those who endure sickness and trial. Happy those who endure in peace, for by you, Most High, they will be crowned.

Be praised, my Lord, through our Sister Bodily Death, from whose embrace no living person can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Happy those she finds doing your most holy will. The second death can do no harm to them.

Praise and bless my Lord, and give thanks, and serve him with great humility.

 

[batteddy]

Notice that in his poem, St. Francis mentions as subjects of the stanzas giving God praise a)the heavenly bodies, b)the basic elements of earth, water, wind, and fire, and c)man. The exact three same material things St. Thomas Aquinas said would remain at the end because they are incorruptible

Francis does not even mention animals, though he loved them, because theology knew that they were naturally corruptible beings, and just particular combinations of more basic and incorruptible matter.

 

[batteddy]

The truly enlightened Christian would take delight in watching the spectacle of a dogs fighting to death with an enraged bull, since he is watching something intrinsically good!

A truly holy man would take as much delight in the dog fight as he would in any pursuit…if he saw it alone, and other men were not there becoming stirred up by it. He would take no particular delight, but he would as much as he takes delight in anything else. He would find the spectacle neutral and wisely know it was as good as everything else God had made.

The dog fight is only bad because of the passions stirred up in the people who watch. It is bad because it entangles people in created pleasures with a particular violently lustful intensity. It does not detatch them from the flesh and the world, certainly.

But a perfectly holy mystic, who had ascended mount carmel, who had calmed his passions, who had “nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, and even on the Mount nothing” as St. John of the Cross said…could watch the fight alone with a benign acceptence, referring it all to the glory of God.

It is the actions of the men involved which make dog fighting disgusting. The disordered passions that are stirred up. The concupiscence aroused. The entanglement in the flesh.

Consider this: if the exact same spectacle is watched in the wild, not in a ring, but on a nature special or something, for scientific purposes, or for being awed at the Circle of Life…its not bad, even if it is two dogs fighting. At least I don’t think so. Then it is just matter shifting from one form to another. The circle of life to the glory of God. I am awed when I see a lion take down an impala on the Discovery Channel or whatever, and see it all as a reflection of the glory of God.

The reason that I am disgusted when I see the exact same events happening in a ring, is because of the disordered and violently intense fleshy passions stirred up in the humans involved. The sin they are commiting, not through the actual cruelty to the animals…which is morally neutral…but through the sadistic pleasure they are delibrately entertaining. Through their stirring up and entanglement in the fleshy passions and the world, instead of turning their minds to heaven. But thats the same reason I don’t like people using drugs, or gambling, or dancing…even though all these things could be morally neutral…it is the entangling passions that they stir up that makes them bad, not the actions themselves.

 

[Matt16_18]

batteddy:

The sin that causes death is bad, but the punishment comes from God and is therefore good.

Chastisements from God are indeed good, because the chastisements are done out of love.For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.
Heb 12:6

Sin is the enemy of God. Death is a weapon God uses to COMBAT sin. It is therefore good.

The changed behaviour that God’s chastisements bring about is what is good. But death itself is NOT intrinsically good. Death is the enemy of God, and God is going to cast Death into the lake of fire at the end of the world. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Cor 15:24-26

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 Everything that God created is good, and God did not create death. Death is a parasite upon the good that entered into the world because of the sin of Adam.… God did not make death,
and he does not delight in the death of the living.
For he created all things that they might exist,
and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them …
Wisdom 1:13-14

Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin …
Romans 5:12

… creation was subjected to futility … creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God
Romans 8:20-21

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Matt16_18:

I did a lot of hunting when I was younger, and I have seen grown men cry when their favorite hunting dog was killed.

Old Yeller, if you recall, takes place in a rural setting. You are arguing that the death of pets is intrinsically good. Our subjective response to the death of a beloved pet should be joy, not grief, if our emotions are in harmony with that goodness.

This earth is the fallen world where man suffers along with the animals. It is certainly not the paradise where Adam and Eve dwelt before the Fall.

So … even after creation is restored, Travis might still have to blast Old Yeller if he gets infected with the hydrophobee. I’ll bet St. Francis is bummed out that the new earth isn’t much different than the old earth.

What saint ever spoke about the new heavens and the new earth as a place tainted by death and decay? Not one that I am aware of. I am still waiting for you to supply the evidence that this is not a novel interpretation of scriptures. Show me a Church Father or a saint that believed what you believe!

I am with you I do not believe for one second that the animals died in the garden:nope: I do not believe they will suffer in heaven either.Flame me if you want but the lion will lay next to the lamb and I believe heaven will be wonderful,God made no junk, including animals.

 

[batteddy]

newadvent.org/summa/316401.htm

This article from Aquinas’s Summa is a good, orthodox, view of death and original sin…the traditional scholastic view of death (including of animals, see objection 2).

And if you look at the reply to objection1 you will see that Aquinas believed the human body to be naturally subjected to corruption, and that it was only a preternatural gift of God subordinating the mortal matter of their bodies to the immortal form of their soul which stopped them from dying. When they lost the grace of God, this preternatural gift was taken away, and their body reverted to being given over to death, as this article clearly admits the animals already were. Because their bodies are composed of contraries, they are simply combinations of more basic matter that come together for a time, and then go back to take on other forms in the circle of life. You are too sentimentally attached to animals and fleeting things of this world. Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but his Word shall not.

 

[Matt16_18]

batteddy:

… if you look at the reply to objection1 you will see that Aquinas believed the human body to be naturally subjected to corruption, and that it was only a preternatural gift of God subordinating the mortal matter of their bodies to the immortal form of their soul which stopped them from dying. When they lost the grace of God, this preternatural gift was taken away, and their body reverted to being given over to death, as this article clearly admits the animals already were.

I understand that Adam and Eve had the preternatural gift of bodily immortality in the terrestrial Paradise. Animals too had this gift. There was no death in the terrestrial Paradise before the Fall. The terrestrial Paradise still exists, a region untouched by the corruption of decay and death.

You are too sentimentally attached to animals and fleeting things of this world. Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but his Word shall not.

Scriptures explicitly says that ALL creation will be set free from the bondage to decay at the Second Coming of Christ. Death will be cast into the lake of fire, the saints will receive immortal glorified bodies, and the rest of the physical creation will be RESTORED to the state it was in before the Fall.

Since ALL creation will be set free from the bondage of decay and restored to its original state, we therefore know that there was no animal that was subject to the bondage of decay BEFORE the Fall.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

ARTICLE 12
“I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING”

VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042** At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men. “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”

**1045 ** For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been “in the nature of sacrament.” Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, “the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community. The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. [Rom 8:19-23.]
1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, “so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,” sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.​

 

[batteddy]

At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.

You see, it says the cosmos only attains its destiny through man. Which means it is only glorified inasmuch as man is glorified. That is to say, the cosmos has not fallen absolutely like man has, it is just that their last end, the service of man, has fallen from supernatural to natural, and so in a way their purpose has relatively fallen. But nothing objectively happened to the cosmos on account of man’s sin…only subjectively inasmuch as their end (man) went from supernatural to natural.

The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, “so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,” sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.

Aquinas in his Summa once again addresses this. Of the Final Conflageration which shall kill off the remaining people on earth, and cleanse the elements for the new world, he says the following:

Since the world was, in a way, made for man’s sake, it follows that, when man shall be glorified in the body, the other bodies of the world shall also be changed to a better state, so that it is rendered a more fitting place for him and more pleasant to look upon. Now in order that man obtain the glory of the body, it behooves first of all those things to be removed which are opposed to glory. There are two, namely the corruption and stain of sin–because according to 1 Cor. 15:50, “neither shall corruption possess incorruption,” and all the unclean shall be without the city of glory (Apocalypse 22:15)–and again, the elements require to be cleansed from the contrary dispositions, ere they be brought to the newness of glory, proportionately to what we have said with regard to man. Now although, properly speaking, a corporeal thing cannot be the subject of the stain of sin, nevertheless, on account of sin corporeal things contract a certain unfittingness for being appointed to spiritual purposes; and for this reason we find that places where crimes have been committed are reckoned unfit for the performance of sacred actions therein, unless they be cleansed beforehand. Accordingly that part of the world which is given to our use contracts from men’s sins a certain unfitness for being glorified, wherefore in this respect it needs to be cleansed. In like manner with regard to the intervening space, on account of the contact of the elements, there are many corruptions, generations and alterations of the elements, which diminish their purity: wherefore the elements need to be cleansed from these also, so that they be fit to receive the newness of glory.

Aquinas only believed that the material universe had fallen inasmuch as its purpose, man, had fallen. He admits that corporeal things cannot contract the stain of sin, and only are made impure inasmuch as “places where crimes have been commited are reckoned unfit for the performance of sacred actions therein”. He thus sees no real consequences for matter from our sin, only relative, subjective consequences based on us falling and thus their purpose falling.

 

[batteddy]

Since ALL creation will be set free from the bondage of decay and restored to its original state, we therefore know that there was no animal that was subject to the bondage of decay BEFORE the Fall.

First, there is generally a difference seen between Original Innocence, and the state of mankind after the Second Coming. Before the Fall we were not yet glorified or in the beatific vision. It is generally thought that eventually, perhaps when the correct number of people were born, then we would pass from the paradise of Original Innocence (where the body is immortal but not glorified, where sex could still be had and food was still necessary, where we had grace but not yet the Beatific Vision) to Glory, which is what we will have after the second coming of Christ. Incarnational theology generally viewed this transition as being at the coming of Christ even if we had not fallen, those who believe that he would not have come if we had not fallen are a bit more vague as to when this transition would take place.

From the Summa:

In the state of innocence man had an animal life requiring food; but after the resurrection he will have a spiritual life needing no food. In order to make this clear, we must observe that the rational soul is both soul and spirit. It is called a soul by reason of what it possesses in common with other souls–that is, as giving life to the body; whence it is written (Genesis 2:7): “Man was made into a living soul”; that is, a soul giving life to the body. But the soul is called a spirit according to what properly belongs to itself, and not to other souls, as possessing an intellectual immaterial power.
Thus in the primitive state, the rational soul communicated to the body what belonged to itself as a soul; and so the body was called “animal” From ‘anima’, a soul; Cf. 1 Cor. 15:44 seqq.], through having its life from the soul. Now the first principle of life in these inferior creatures as the Philosopher says (De Anima ii, 4) is the vegetative soul: the operations of which are the use of food, generation, and growth. Wherefore such operations befitted man in the state of innocence. But in the final state, after the resurrection, the soul will, to a certain extent, communicate to the body what properly belongs to itself as a spirit; immortality to everyone; impassibility, glory, and power to the good, whose bodies will be called “spiritual.” So, after the resurrection, man will not require food; whereas he required it in the state of innocence.

Thus Aquinas believed there were to be two stages, a stage where we were immortal but still had an animal life and where there were still animals and plants and where we could have babies, and eat, and drink…and then a stage where we were glorified and had a purely spiritual life that needed none of these things, and where there would be no more animals or plants, only the basic elements, the heavenly bodies, and us…and this is the stage we will be at after Christ’s second coming.

Second, Aquinas admits that after the transition to glory (in our case at the second coming) there would indeed be no more decay. And how would this happen? By the absence of mixed bodies. By the breaking down of all combinations of matter (except the human body united to the human soul) into their basic, incorruptible constituents. Indeed he saw there as being no more decay, but it was not because animals would not die…but rather because there would be no more animals, because he sees animals as Naturally corruptible!

Therefore it will be impossible for anything to be the subject of that renewal, unless it be a subject of incorruption. Now such are the heavenly bodies, the elements, and man. For the heavenly bodies are by their very nature incorruptible both as to their whole and as to their part: the elements are corruptible as to their parts but incorruptible as a whole: while men are corruptible both in whole and in part, but this is on the part of their matter not on the part of their form, the rational soul to wit, which will remain incorrupt after the corruption of man. on the other hand, dumb animals, plants, and minerals, and all mixed bodies, are corruptible both in their whole and in their parts, both on the part of their matter which loses its form, and on the part of their form which does not remain actually; and thus they are in no way subjects of incorruption. Hence they will not remain in this renewal, but those things alone which we have mentioned above.

 

[batteddy]

Finally, as a proof that traditional scholastic theology believes that animals would have died even before the fall, and that our fall did not objectively effect them, is another quote from the Summa:

In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. **For the nature of animals was not **changed by man’s sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede’s gloss on Gn. 1:30, say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon.

 

[nobody]

batteddy:

not through the actual cruelty to the animals…which is morally neutral

The CCC does not agree with you on this.

 

[batteddy]

The CCC does not agree with you on this.

Yes it does.

It says:

It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.

Which is exactly my position as stated above. It is contrary to HUMAN dignity to cause needless animal suffering. It is not the animals who are truly the victims or suffer the results, it is the HUMANS who have inordinate, violent passions stirred up in them and have their dignity therefore compromised. Not the animals in and of themselves, but only as the cruel acts relate to HUMANS.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

The scholastic theologians condemn the infliction of needless suffering on animals, chiefly because of the injurious effects on the character of the perpetrator

. Thus St. Thomas, in his Summa Contra Gentiles (Book II, 112), after refuting the error that it is not lawful to take the lives of brutes, explains the import of the above-mentioned texts of Scripture. He says that these prohibitions are issued either

lest anyone by exercising cruelty towards brutes may become cruel also towards men; or, because an injury to brutes may result in loss to the owner, or on account of some symbolic signification.Elsewhere (Summa Theologica I-II:102:6 ad 8um) he states that God’s purpose in recommending kind treatment of the brute creation is to dispose men to pity and tenderness for one another.

It is not that animals suffering is intrinsically bad, it happens in the wild all the time…even in Eden…and was good. Things eat things, end of story. BUT to cause it needlessly, for some sick pleasure, degrades the HUMAN, not the animal.