On Day One of Synod 2015, conservatives strike first

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But it seems to me a Catholic ought to know very well that receiving Communion while in a state of mortal sin is itself a grave sin. The teaching is very clear, so what would be the point?
The teaching may be clear but its application, not so much. For example, one can believe stealing $99 is a venial sin but stealing $100 is grounds for a mortal sin. I don’t believe God works on this kind of binary system. The Church has always taught confession to absolve sin.
 
But the Church allows couples to receive if they are permanently abstaining from relations although still living together. They don’t have to demonstrate their celibacy to anyone for this to happen
Yes, this is the case now. Those in a second marriage who are abstaining from sexual relations can receive communion. So one wonders why the issue is even being discussed, since the remedy is already available.

However, I thought that the proposals were directed at the situation of those in an invalid second marriage who were not abstaining, and that the proposal was to find a way for them to be admitted to communion without obtaining an annulment. If that is not the proposal, then the matter is already solved.

One might of course, leave the matter entirely up to the conscience of the individuals involved. But that too has its dangers. Already, with the way that communion is currently distributed, there is present an implicit expectation that everyone will receive, which puts a certain pressure to receive even unworthily. Perhaps the Synod needs to examine whether perhaps too many are receiving without properly recognizing the Body and Blood.
 
One might of course, leave the matter entirely up to the conscience of the individuals involved. But that too has its dangers. Already, with the way that communion is currently distributed, there is present an implicit expectation that everyone will receive, which puts a certain pressure to receive even unworthily. Perhaps the Synod needs to examine whether perhaps too many are receiving without properly recognizing the Body and Blood.
That’s precisely the reality.
 
But this is not true in the case of communion for the remarried. The state of the soul does not bar communion, but the objective fact of divorce and remarriage, which may or may not reflect sin on the soul.
Perhaps the first step could be a language one in the sense of not automatically referring to such a couple as ‘adulterers’ as a matter of course? The justice system has line that divides murder from manslaughter in order to determine the fate of a killer. Just thinking.
 
Perhaps the first step could be a language one in the sense of not automatically referring to such a couple as ‘adulterers’ as a matter of course? The justice system has line that divides murder from manslaughter in order to determine the fate of a killer. Just thinking.
You mean like adultery in the first degree? Or second degree?

Maybe we can extend this to stealing in the first degree, or gossip in the second degree?

I don’t believe God works in a binary or digital system. But to each his own, I guess.
 
You mean like adultery in the first degree? Or second degree?

Maybe we can extend this to stealing in the first degree, or gossip in the second degree?

I don’t believe God works in a binary or digital system. But to each his own, I guess.
It depends on how you are defining, digital or binary.

While it is true that Hell has varying levels of punishment, and Heaven has increasing levels of Beautific Vision, the existence of only those two ends is ‘binary’, is it not?
 
The teaching may be clear but its application, not so much. For example, one can believe stealing $99 is a venial sin but stealing $100 is grounds for a mortal sin. I don’t believe God works on this kind of binary system. The Church has always taught confession to absolve sin.
It has. I noted in the comment that if a person were in an objective state of mortal sin, it should be addressed at the pastoral level. For instance, if such a person were to reveal to the pastor, whether in confession or otherwise, that they were in an obstinate state of mortal sin as the result of adultery, then the pastor would know it and could properly address it. But really, I think that the teaching that a person in the state of mortal sin should not receive Communion is clear and ought to be known by any Catholic.
 
Was Christ not pastoral when He used such language?
We don’t take the bible literally. We look to the Church to help us. Otherwise like the Protestants we could use Christs words to approve of divorce.

Matt 19 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

You could say His pastoral approach was more reflected by Luke 12 47-48

47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
 
You mean like adultery in the first degree? Or second degree?

Maybe we can extend this to stealing in the first degree, or gossip in the second degree?

I don’t believe God works in a binary or digital system. But to each his own, I guess.
Murder and manslaughter aren’t degrees of the one crime, they are distinct, the latter done without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. That makes a difference to the consequences.
 
Was Christ not pastoral when He used such language?
I do not know where Jesus called anyone an adulterer. I know one place where He told a woman that the man she was with was not here husband, but He was in a rather unique position to know such things. I see appealing to the authority of Jesus on this issue to be a stretch, as He never addressed it.

I think it best to stick with what the Church teaches, and what is pastoral. It is also wrong to say that an idea like Cardinal Kasper’s is the pastoral approach, lest we lose sight of the very pastoral nature of canon law as it stands now. Everything the Church does is pastoral, in that the primary purpose is salvation.
 
Yes, this is the case now. Those in a second marriage who are abstaining from sexual relations can receive communion. So one wonders why the issue is even being discussed, since the remedy is already available.

However, I thought that the proposals were directed at the situation of those in an invalid second marriage who were not abstaining, and that the proposal was to find a way for them to be admitted to communion without obtaining an annulment. If that is not the proposal, then the matter is already solved.
From what I had heard, the situation whether those abstaining or those not… has presented as a theological conundrum at the parish level. The ‘remedy’ of celibacy does not seem to fit since the second marriage is a living entity even if not sacramental.
 
It depends on how you are defining, digital or binary.

While it is true that Hell has varying levels of punishment, and Heaven has increasing levels of Beautific Vision, the existence of only those two ends is ‘binary’, is it not?
Our final destination can be binary, but sin is not. the Church has never taught that all sin is the same.
 
Not wishing to possibly upset anyone, I have only alluded to what I see as the actual teaching concerning a second marriage and adultery, but here it is from the Douay-Rheims translation from the Vulgate:

“But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away committh adultery.” --Matthew 5:32

“And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and he that shall marry her committeth adultery.” Matthew 19:9

“And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.” Mark 10:11-12

“Every one who putteth away his wife and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband, committeth adultery.” Luke 16:18

The sole reference to the one “put away” committing adultery is found in Matthew 5:32, and here the husband who puts her away “maketh her to commit adultery”. Look carefully at the wording in both Matthew 19:9 and Luke 16:18 in particular. What might this really mean?
 
The bottom line is a sin should be called a sin. Jesus told the woman caught in adultary to “sin no more”. Currently it seems that people want to completely get rid of the word and the concept of “sin”, in the name of false mercy. That is diasterous.
 
From what I had heard, the situation whether those abstaining or those not… has presented as a theological conundrum at the parish level. The ‘remedy’ of celibacy does not seem to fit since the second marriage is a living entity even if not sacramental.
Indeed, that is precisely the problem. And one can not solve it without solving the problem of “what do we do about the first marriage?” One must either presume it to be valid or not valid.
 
Not wishing to possibly upset anyone, I have only alluded to what I see as the actual teaching concerning a second marriage and adultery, but here it is from the Douay-Rheims translation from the Vulgate:

“But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away committh adultery.” --Matthew 5:32

“And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and he that shall marry her committeth adultery.” Matthew 19:9

“And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.” Mark 10:11-12

“Every one who putteth away his wife and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband, committeth adultery.” Luke 16:18

The sole reference to the one “put away” committing adultery is found in Matthew 5:32, and here the husband who puts her away “maketh her to commit adultery”. Look carefully at the wording in both Matthew 19:9 and Luke 16:18 in particular. What might this really mean?
I’m sure the synod fathers will be aware of this. The questions they are addressing will be to do with a very distinct group and not across the board… those who have had a conversion of faith, are participating fully in Parish life and raising their children in the faith. If a relationship has brought to people to that point of faithfulness, it is worth examining what that means. If the Petrine privilege recognises that the safety of the soul is reason enough to declare a broken marriage null, you’d think that a marriage drawing the couple closer to the Church must have something good to examine for meaning.
 
Currently it seems that people want to completely get rid of the word and the concept of “sin”, in the name of false mercy.
I have not seen where anyone has suggested this, or is wanting to do this. I think this is more of a misconception than a real problem.
 
Murder and manslaughter aren’t degrees of the one crime,
They are if you look at the commandment as a whole, no?

I guess it depends on how you want to look at it. Is this the “weaseling and maneuvering our way in confession” such as the comedian Fr. Sarducci once suggested?
 
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