On Enoch's and Elijah's salvation

[MarcoPG]

Your basing your conjectures on biblical interpretation that may be faulty. Why twist yourself into a pretzel trying to justify something that is not even being said in Scripture?

Remember death in Scripture does not always mean physical death, but spiritual death.

No one has escaped death, not Jesus, nor his mother, nor any person that ever lived.

You get into trouble when you try to exempt people from death for whatever reason.

I know the Church has not explicitly defined that the Virgin Mary died, but neither does the Church anywhere deny it. In fact it is ancient tradition that Mary died, and even Pope JPII expressed his opinion that she did in fact die.

Now to say that the Virgin Mary never died at least has SOME basis because she was exempted from Original sin, and never sinned either. But we don’t have any Church teaching or even opinions to this effect with Elijah or Enoch. If anyone deserves to be exempt from Death, it is St. John the Baptist, as Jesus Himself said that NO man born of woman was greater than he!

But then, what about this tradition (or mere supposition?) that Enoch and Elijah are still “mortally” alive?

And what is your opinion? I know you already answered, but an opinion is what it is, and the fact that the Church didn’t define on the subject gives you a possibility of questioning things.

I don’t think I am having faulty exegesis just because I suppose some things. I am trying to find a way to understand. Sometimes, we have to twist our minds like pretzels to get closer to the answer. It is an attempt to better understand the mysteries, knowing we cannot fully.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

MarcoPG:

I don’t think I am having faulty exegesis just because I suppose some things. I am trying to find a way to understand. Sometimes, we have to twist our minds like pretzels to get closer to the answer. It is an attempt to better understand the mysteries, knowing we cannot fully.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My contention is that one’s opinion regarding a slight mention in Scripture (as Enoch is mentioned only slightly in some few places) should not be contrary to Church doctrine at the very least.

We know for a fact from Church Doctrine that all of mankind has inherited Original Sin, with the exception of Jesus and the Virgin Mary. That means all the rest of mankind has inherited the effects of Original Sin, which is death.

Even with Jesus and the Virgin Mary, we know for a fact that Our Lord died, and the Church has an ancient tradition (both East and West) of the death (dormition) of the Virgin Mary. That means that according to the best teaching of the Church, ALL HAVE DIED.

That is why our exegesis should be informed by our Church’s doctrines.
Now some have conjectured various bizarre circumstances to allow for the literal understanding of some difficult places in Scripture. But my view is that there is probably no need for such tortured logic to validate difficult passages, but rather to infer a more spiritual or allegorical interpretation.

 

[MarcoPG]

It would certainly easier to say they have died.

But the ones who stick to the theory that they are bodily (meaning mortally) alive (non glorified in any way) surely know Church doctrines on death.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

It would certainly easier to say they have died.

But the ones who stick to the theory that they are bodily (meaning mortally) alive (non glorified in any way) surely know Church doctrines on death.

That’s an assumption I would not be inclined to make.

 

[MarcoPG]

That’s an assumption I would not be inclined to make.

Sure if they do, it would be hard to maintain such a view on the passages of Genesis and Kings.
That the Church Fathers like saint Augustine may support this view (of Enoch and Elijah being still mortally alive) is also a difficulty.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Sure if they do, it would be hard to maintain such a view on the passages of Genesis and Kings.
That the Church Fathers like saint Augustine may support this view (of Enoch and Elijah being still mortally alive) is also a difficulty.

The difference is that the Church has solemnly defined a lot of things since the time of St. Augustine. Your statement was if they “stick to this theory” meaning of course, theologians today.

 

[MarcoPG]

The difference is that the Church has solemnly defined a lot of things since the time of St. Augustine. Your statement was if they “stick to this theory” meaning of course, theologians today.

Exactly, and they could reuse Augustine…in spite of the fact that Jesus said John the Baptist is that Elijah who had to come.

 

[PJM]

=MarcoPG;12349300]The thing is, th merits of Christ were applied to Mary before she came to the world. How does that deny to Enoch or Elijah to have the same grace?

And also, when I mean glorified, if not totally, I mean somehow, in some sort, so that they could go up to heaven, whatever heaven that may be.

To be in heaven wth a mortal body - but keep in mind, no roblem with being there physically - is for me an contradiction. Enoch and Elijah have sinned. They do not have to die, but then it is a grace; I don’t see any other source of grace that Jesus Christ for them to receive such a reward.

God cannot change. What God Ordained at the advent of Original Sin HAD TOO be paid for by the Earthly presence of Christ; and His Passion, Death and RESURRECTION.

One of the KEY fruits of this series of sacrificial events was the REOPENING of the Gate to heaven which prior was locked.

Could Christ / God have done differently? Sure. But did he: NO!

It was NOT a matter of grace offered, received and rightly applied; rather it was a matter of Divine Justice:thumbsup:

Additionally; the Old Testament times were not a period of “Grace” but rather “the Law”

READ Isiah 55 and not how God’s ways are so much greater than our own.

God Bless you,

Patrick.

 

[MarcoPG]

PJM, I agree with what you say, but how can question like the following receive the following answer then? Do you mean the the merits of Christ could not be applied to them? Why not

How could Enoch have been taken up into heaven before Jesus freed the souls in limbo?

How could Enoch have been taken up into heaven before Jesus died on the cross and brought every soul who ever lived from limbo to heaven?

Answer

First of all, Jesus didn’t take every soul who ever lived into heaven, only those who had died in God’s friendship, in the state of grace. Secondly, while it’s true that the Old Testament indicates that Enoch as well as Elijah were taken into heaven prior to the atonement and the harrowing of hell, it was still through the merits of Christ’s future passion and death that they were able to go there. Just as the Blessed Virgin was preserved from all stain of sin by the merits of Christ’s future passion applied to her at the time of her conception, in the same way God could bring Enoch and Elijah into heaven by the same future merits of Christ.

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff

 

[PJM]

=MarcoPG;12357453]PJM, I agree with what you say, but how can question like the following receive the following answer then? Do you mean the the merits of Christ could not be applied to them? Why not

How could Enoch have been taken up into heaven before Jesus freed the souls in limbo?

How could Enoch have been taken up into heaven before Jesus died on the cross and brought every soul who ever lived from limbo to heaven?

Answer

First of all, Jesus didn’t take every soul who ever lived into heaven, only those who had died in God’s friendship, in the state of grace. Secondly, while it’s true that the Old Testament indicates that Enoch as well as Elijah were taken into heaven prior to the atonement and the harrowing of hell, it was still through the merits of Christ’s future passion and death that they were able to go there. Just as the Blessed Virgin was preserved from all stain of sin by the merits of Christ’s future passion applied to her at the time of her conception, in the same way God could bring Enoch and Elijah into heaven by the same future merits of Christ.

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff

FYI:

The most egregious error of Protestantism regarding Salvation is confusing what God COULD have chosen to do and what God actually DOD choose to do

God can do any good thing. What he did for Enoch was a VERY good thing; but there was in an absolute sense no need for God to make an exception for him. Limbo of the Fathers was not hell; or purgatory. There was no pain of suffering beyond the desire for the Beatific Vision; which they knew would happen.

As time does not exist for God; time also did not exist for them. So they did not suffer; only longed for: .The Core issue here is Divine Justice.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[MarcoPG]

FYI:

The most egregious error of Protestantism regarding Salvation is confusing what God COULD have chosen to do and what God actually DOD choose to do

God can do any good thing. What he did for Enoch was a VERY good thing; but there was in an absolute sense no need for God to make an exception for him. Limbo of the Fathers was not hell; or purgatory. There was no pain of suffering beyond the desire for the Beatific Vision; which they knew would happen.

As time does not exist for God; time also did not exist for them. So they did not suffer; only longed for: .The Core issue here is Divine Justice.

God Bless you,
Patrick

But m problem is not if it was necessary, it is how? Similar to Mary’s grace, so by Christ’s future merits, just at the end of their lives, so that what they experienced wasn’t death and wasn’t before Christ? Because without Hebrews, it would be a bit too much to say they did not die. And that they did not taste death, it probably means a spiritual one.

 

[Nita]

No one has escaped death, not Jesus, nor his mother, nor any person that ever lived.

You get into trouble when you try to exempt people from death for whatever reason.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.

and

(Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm )
Return of Enoch and Elijah
The belief that these two men, who have never tasted death, are reserved for the last times to be precursors of the Second Advent was practically unanimous among the Fathers, which belief they base on several texts of Scripture. (Concerning Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6; Sirach 48:10; Matthew 17:11; concerning Enoch see Sirach 44:16) If, by God’s Divine will Elijah and Enoch are returned to earth to fulfill a role in the end times, then they may yet experience physical death.

 

[MarcoPG]

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.

and

(Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm )
Return of Enoch and Elijah
The belief that these two men, who have never tasted death, are reserved for the last times to be precursors of the Second Advent was practically unanimous among the Fathers, which belief they base on several texts of Scripture. (Concerning Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6; Sirach 48:10; Matthew 17:11; concerning Enoch see Sirach 44:16) If, by God’s Divine will Elijah and Enoch are returned to earth to fulfill a role in the end times, then they may yet experience physical death.

But I must say I agree with Ambrose who speaks of spiritual death. And they may return anyway. But tell me how you reconcile the fact that everyone dies, and the fact that they will have to experience physical death. Even if all the fathers agreed, it would not be defined. Ans simply, how do you explain that they still live outside of this world?

 

[Nita]

But I must say I agree with Ambrose who speaks of spiritual death.

Of course there is spiritual death & Elijah and Enoch experienced it – they were born in the state of original sin.

And they may return anyway. But tell me how you reconcile the fact that everyone dies, and the fact that they will have to experience physical death.

Physical death is the separation of our immortal soul from our mortal body. At some time they either have been, or in the future at the general resurrection, will be separated from their mortal body. And, that is death. They are not going to spend eternity in a mortal body. And we just plain don’t know when or how God is going to have them undergo that change.

Even if all the fathers agreed, it would not be defined. Ans simply, how do you explain that they still live outside of this world?

How are they still alive, simply?? Easy and very simple, by God’s Divine will and power.

 

[MarcoPG]

Of course there is spiritual death & Elijah and Enoch experienced it – they were born in the state of original sin.

What I meant by this is that they got eternal life.

Physical death is the separation of our immortal soul from our mortal body. At some time they either have been, or in the future at the general resurrection, will be separated from their mortal body. And, that is death. They are not going to spend eternity in a mortal body. And we just plain don’t know when or how God is going to have them undergo that change. How are they still alive, simply?? Easy and very simple, by God’s Divine will and power.

Is that logic to keep them alive in a mortal body when the scripture says they were taken up? I am not denying God’s Will, but here God’s will would be very peculiar knowing how He ordained things for mankind.

 

[Nita]

Is that logic to keep them alive in a mortal body when the scripture says they were taken up? I am not denying God’s Will, but here God’s will would be very peculiar knowing how He ordained things for mankind.

His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not ours! (cf. Isaiah 55:8)

God did lots of “peculiar” things according to our thinking!!!
(Eg. Jonah in the belly of a whale;
having Peter get the temple tax from the mouth of a fish; …)

That might make an interesting thread – “Unusual ways God chose to accomplish His Will”

 

[Nita]

Is that logic to keep them alive in a mortal body when the scripture says they were taken up? I am not denying God’s Will, but here God’s will would be very peculiar knowing how He ordained things for mankind.

1 Corinthians 12:2-6
I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.
And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter.
About this person I will boast, but about myself I will not boast, except about my weaknesses.
Although if I should wish to boast, I would not be foolish, for I would be telling the truth. But I refrain, so that no one may think more of me than what he sees in me or hears from me

 

[MarcoPG]

His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not ours! (cf. Isaiah 55:8)

God did lots of “peculiar” things according to our thinking!!!
(Eg. Jonah in the belly of a whale;
having Peter get the temple tax from the mouth of a fish; …)

That might make an interesting thread – “Unusual ways God chose to accomplish His Will”

I am not comparaing our ways with HIS, but you can agree that given the knowledge of God that we have thanks to Scripture and the Magisterium, it doesn’t always help to say yes but He is God, we have to keep in mind some basics about death. If that doesn’t work for some like Enoch or Elijah, then it is a grace and here again, grace works in certain ways, not just God taking up people just because. So that’s my point. He sure can, but he acts logically.

 

[Nita]

I am not comparaing our ways with HIS, but you can agree that given the knowledge of God that we have thanks to Scripture and the Magisterium, it doesn’t always help to say yes but He is God, we have to keep in mind some basics about death. If that doesn’t work for some like Enoch or Elijah, then it is a grace and here again, grace works in certain ways, not just God taking up people just because. So that’s my point. He sure can, but he acts logically.

I’m not talking about what He can do, I’m talking about what He did do. He did take Enoch up without his tasting death. That is Scripture.
And what God does is “logical” in His thinking, even tho it may not be in yours/ours.

God’s justice exists along with His love and mercy. Those who have a problem grasping that, usually have problems with some of Our Lord’s parables. (Eg. prodigal son; workers in the field hired at various times of the day & still getting the same pay; …)

doesn’t always help to say yes but He is God

Whenever anything miraculous happens we always have to say it happens because “He is God” (because He wills it and He has the power to accomplish it).

If that doesn’t work for some like Enoch or Elijah, then it is a grace

Of course it is only by God’s grace that the translation of Enoch and Elijah took place.

we have to keep in mind some basics about death.

What basics are you talking about?

 

[MarcoPG]

I’m not talking about what He can do, I’m talking about what He did do. He did take Enoch up without his tasting death. That is Scripture.
And what God does is “logical” in His thinking, even tho it may not be in yours/ours.

God’s justice exists along with His love and mercy. Those who have a problem grasping that, usually have problems with some of Our Lord’s parables. (Eg. prodigal son; workers in the field hired at various times of the day & still getting the same pay; …)

Whenever anything miraculous happens we always have to say it happens because “He is God” (because He wills it and He has the power to accomplish it).

Of course it is only by God’s grace that the translation of Enoch and Elijah took place.

What basics are you talking about?

That is certainly Scripture, and in Scripture there is physical death, and spiritual death, bith potential for sin in live which we cannot see because only the soul is injured, and definitive death in hell.

God’s Grace and Mercy works together with Truth and Justice. With these parables of the Prodigal son, The two sons, etc. we see a certain pattern of repentence before grace can be received.
Only is we are in a state of grace, we don’t need so to speak to repent because we already do God’s will. It doesn’t mean we are perfect, but you understand that the soul is not in mortal sin. Now Elijah and enoch were surely in a state of grace as we may are, surely higher, but not different since they were sinners. Therefore it is difficult (not impossible) to say they didn’t die physically. If you say so, you have to argument.

Yes, it is because He is God, but because He is God, he doesn’t act illogically. Logos itself should answer that not because He is God he can do things which are not his will. and his will, as you say, is what he did, not what he could have done. Knowing what he does and how he does because of the order of the world and the state of mankond, then it is once again difficult to say Enoch and Elijah didn’t die and are still mortally alive.

What I call basics are:
All have sinned,
Jesus ascended and Mary was assumed. That is dogma, so
Before Jesus, no one goes to Heaven. If there is any way, it is a grace which has reasons, but it doesn’t surely mean those previledged people do not die, or remain mortally alive.
Jesus himself said Elijah already came in the person of John the Baptist. that was the return. Not the prophet himself, but the essence of what he did.
The transfiguration: Elijah is there, but appearing. What mortal body can appear? Even if God would make it appear, would that be logical?

It is true that the belief of the returning of those two figures was shared by many fathers, but a belief is no teaching, even if unanimous.

I hope you see why it is difficult for me to agree with you.