On the Number of Sins which God Pardons No More

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TheTrinitySaves said:
Judgment of Condemnation:

Judgment in this passage is referring to condemning (“pronouncing” judgment on a person’s soul). We are not the “Judge” to pronounce condemnation on anyone (not even ourselves). Only God can do that. The Church, for example, never pronounces “anyone” in hell. And even in the assessment of a person declared a saint, it is done by special dispensation granted to the Church by her authority of the “keys”. But even with this authority, we need to note that it is never applied to judging a person in hell. **If the Church, who has the authority of the keys will not judge a person to condemnation, how can we? We are never to judge a person’s state of soul. **Jesus tells us that we will receive ourselves the judgment of soul that we place on others if we attempt this usurpation of God’s sovereignty.

They will not judge anyone specifically, but they do have the power to announce hitler in hell, they just do not want to go down that road.
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OK–now you really have me confused. Isn’t the above what everyone posting on this thread been saying to you? I bolded a couple of the things you said above–isn’t this contrary to what you have been saying with regard to Hitler on this thread–indeed in the post below the one I am quoting you once again say you’ve determined Hitler to be there [hell].

How does this square with what you have written above? Above you write “we are never to judge a person’s state of soul”–yet isn’t that what you have done with regard to Hitler? You write “we are not the ‘judge’ to pronounce condemnation on anyone (not even ourselves). Only God can do that.” If this is true how is it that you can state Hitler is in hell–by stating that aren’t you doing what you state only God can do? You have me confused. This seems contradictory doesn’t it?

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Can you honestly not the differentiate between killing 5 million and one person? And do you honestly think it takes the same amount of evil? No. Killing 5 million innocent lives is 5x worse then killing 1 innocent life.
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Well, actually, if we’re going by sheer math, it’s 5 million times worse. My question is, what is the number that puts one out of reach of God’s mercy? Is it in the thousands range, the millions, what? I propose to you that if one committed one murder and went to their grave hardened and unrepentant, his soul would be in far worse shape than the one who killed many hundreds but repented. Obviously it would be more difficult to repent for so much. Obviously it would be easier to repent of one grave crime than so many. But with God, all things are possible.

-Fr ACEGC
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
catholiclifeministries.org/2014/10/30/heaven-hell-purgatory-and-adolf-hitler/
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Referring to the article you linked, it also explicitly stated that Hitler was still able to repent and even went into a hypothetical story of him in Purgatory. So the very article you’re citing against Hitler being able to be redeemed EXPLICITLY states he may very well be in Heaven or on his way to it.

And then in your next post you say you have certain knowledge that Hitler is in hell, but you’re not the Church nor are we to judge a person’s fate. (Another theme of the article.)
 
Reepicheep said:
…What is the difference between asking God’s forgiveness and asking God’s mercy?

God does not play gotcha with us. If we repent He forgives.
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The difference is that with forgiveness one is truly sorry for his deeds, while for mercy one is only scared of hell and not truly sorry for their sins.
 
Reepicheep said:
‘That sort of rhetoric’ is not the teaching of Mother Church. You are engaging in the Straw Man fallacy; invent wrong claims, pretend they are what your opponent is saying, then refute your own words in the other guy’s mouth.
If Hitler was saved it was not because he was Catholic (supposing he was). It was because he repented. If your atheist neighbor is in hell it is not because he was atheist but because he committed mortal sins and refused to repent.
And it is part of the teaching of Mother Church that those who do not know of Jesus or who mistakenly rejected what the thought He is, may still be saved because they followed the best they knew and would have accepted Jesus had they known.
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Ok, I am trying to have a civil discussion on church teachings while you seem intent on throwing accusations of me lying. Their is no need to make a baseless accusation of me inventing words and putting them in your mouth.
 
Reepicheep said:
What do you do with a prisoner already sentenced to life in prison who keeps attacking the guards and fellow prisoners?
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You put the prisoner in solitary, not execute him. And if we caught Hitler we would have executed him, he is to far gone and committed to many crimes.
 
MarkInOregon said:
OK–now you really have me confused. Isn’t the above what everyone posting on this thread been saying to you? I bolded a couple of the things you said above–isn’t this contrary to what you have been saying with regard to Hitler on this thread–indeed in the post below the one I am quoting you once again say you’ve determined Hitler to be there [hell].

How does this square with what you have written above? Above you write “we are never to judge a person’s state of soul”–yet isn’t that what you have done with regard to Hitler? You write “we are not the ‘judge’ to pronounce condemnation on anyone (not even ourselves). Only God can do that.” If this is true how is it that you can state Hitler is in hell–by stating that aren’t you doing what you state only God can do? You have me confused. This seems contradictory doesn’t it?

The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Hello,

The power to condem is given to us through the church, but the church chooses not to use it in case they make a mistake and condemn someone who is actually in heaven.
 
Austere said:
Hello my friends,
I know many of you may have heard and read this sermon yourselves, and after reading it myself, does the Church profess this as doctrine? That God Himself assigns to each person a number of sins they are within the limit of committing and should they surpass this limit, they will be forgiven no more? Does St. Alphonsus de Liguori wish us to take this sermon to heart as if WE did have a certain limit to the number of sins we were allowed to commit and living with that idea in mind? If anyone would kindly relay the Church’s opinion on this matter, it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you very much.
God bless you.
:thankyou:
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Not the RCC.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
You put the prisoner in solitary, not execute him. And if we caught Hitler we would have executed him, he is to far gone and committed to many crimes.
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How many is too many? Please cite Scripture or Church teaching.

-Fr ACEGC
 
OneSheep said:
Hello, and Welcome to the Forum TS!

I want to thank you for making this thread a very interesting read. There have been a lot of very good points made from many directions, and I hope to bring a new angle into this, something we are not considering up to this point.

First of all, I want to commend you for including Hitler’s victims as part of the loved people of God. It is obvious that you care about the atrocities, and your conscience is well-formed in that you detest what happened. Because of this well-formed conscience, you would emotionally shun any of such hurtful acts, and you are compelled to correct such wrongs.

What I would like to add to this thread is that it is part of the human condition that we project our own feelings and views upon God. Therefore, the question of “Does God forgive Hitler?” is centered on the question “Do I forgive Hitler?”.

Of course, one may have a tremendous revulsion to the latter question. “I have no right to forgive him”, “He does not deserve forgiving”, “It is none of my business”, “some people are unforgivable” etc. But the Gospel is very clear on the issue:

New International Version
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Mark 11:25

So, if we hold anything against Hitler (and anyone of informed conscience should!) we are called to forgive him. But how do we forgive?

There is more to be gleaned from the Gospel on this issue, but I have written enough for now. It is worth noting the story of Eva Kor, who though Jewish has taken a more Christian approach to Hitler and the Nazis than the majority of Christians.

Thoughts? 🙂
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Hello,
Yes the bible is clear on the issue, however obviously it was written before hitler. If it was written after Hitler I believe they would have changed their tune when Mark witnessed the terrible acts of hitler.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Yes I believe in true repentance. True repentance is realizing that your prior actions were truly wrong and asking god for forgiveness out of the bottom of your heart. True repentance is not begging for gods mercy out of a fear of going to hell. The benifets of true repentance apply to humans in ALMOST all situations. Repentance gives us hope and awe of Gods tremendous mercy for us. However there are some situations where the sinner has gone to far or it is to late. Even if he does repent he has caused to much pain and ignored suffering for two long for it to be considered valid. Hitler is that example (Very rare, only a handful of the worst have acheived this)
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TheTrinitySaves said:
  1. Yes, but this is not absolute, obviously mortal sins are to a degree depending on how evil the sin is. (SSM vs Murder)
  2. Yes, there is a amount of sins that is very large that will put you over. specifically murder as the sin though, not just any type sins. only murder and other heinous acts.
  3. No there is no reference, but its what she believes.
    4. Hitler is the only one I have determined to be there..
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You stated handful so i assumed you believed there were others that you knew of.
Thanks for taking the time to respond
 
Jesus already knew about Hitler when he spoke those words and inspired Mark’s writing. The tune was already prepared.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
No, No he diid not.
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Jesus knew the time, date and manner of His own death. And that He would rise again.

Jesus knew beforehand that Peter would betray Him, and foretold the manner of Peter’s own execution.

Jesus knew, before either of them died, that the good thief would be in Heaven with Him.

Jesus foretold that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.

Yet somehow He didn’t know about Hitler? We’re talking about omniscient God here.

And what about Stalin? By all accounts many more millions died under Stalin’s regime than Hitler’s. Yet Hitler is the one you are certain is condemned to Hell?
 
LilyM said:
Jesus knew the time, date and manner of His own death. And that He would rise again.

Jesus knew beforehand that Peter would betray Him, and foretold the manner of Peter’s own execution.

Jesus knew, before either of them died, that the good thief would be in Heaven with Him.

Jesus foretold that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.

Yet somehow He didn’t know about Hitler? We’re talking about omniscient God here.

And what about Stalin? By all accounts many more millions died under Stalin’s regime than Hitler’s. Yet Hitler is the one you are certain is condemned to Hell?
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We all have free will, Jesus cannot force us, or create us to turn to evil. That would be predestination my friend. I have not studied stalins crimes in the fullest extent as hitlers, but i may possibly determine him to hell, however he had children and may have been revealed to the mercy of god through them.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
We all have free will, Jesus cannot force us, or create us to turn to evil. That would be predestination my friend. I have not studied stalins crimes in the fullest extent as hitlers, but i may possibly determine him to hell, however he had children and may have been revealed to the mercy of god through them.
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Ok, I don’t know what your logic is but if you look back through your posts there seems to be large inconsistencies in what you are saying. On one hand, we can’t judge a person’s soul…on the other hand, you personally have declared that a person is in hell. If the Church has no authority to declare someone condemned, how do you?

You cannot “determine” anyone to be in hell. Not even the Church can so I don’t know where you think you have this power from. You have not been able to cite any Church teaching t back up your remarks.

My only thought at this point is that you are trolling to “watch the catholics defend Hitler” or some such thing.
 
edward_george said:
How many is too many? Please cite Scripture or Church teaching.

-Fr ACEGC
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TheTrinitySaves said:
You have just commited the line drawing fallacy my friend.
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You claim Hitler must be condemned because he committed too many sins.
Someone asks you: how many is too many?
You reply that he is committing ‘the line drawing fallacy’.

If there is no line between ‘too many’ and ‘not too many’ then how can you say Hitler committed too many sins?
If there is such a line but you do not know where the line is drawn how can you say Hitler must be on the wrong side of the line?
If you do know where the line is drawn why is it wrong to ask you how you know this?
And why is it wrong to ask you to cite evidence when you have complained of others that they do not offer evidence?
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Hello,
Yes the bible is clear on the issue, however obviously it was written before hitler. If it was written after Hitler I believe they would have changed their tune when Mark witnessed the terrible acts of hitler.
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…?

Is not Scripture inspired by God? Did God not know Hitler would happen?
 
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