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Reepicheep
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If Jesus did not, the Father did. Would the Father have allowed falsehood into Scripture, represented as truth?
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OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning TS,
Thank you for continuing your appropriate arguments.
Jesus’ contemporaries were subject to some terrible acts, and there had been a history of heinous cruelty from Roman overseers. And think of this, who suffered more as Jesus hung on the cross? Was it Him, or was it His Mother? Is there a person on Earth who can stomach the torture and death of their own child with any less anguish than those who experience genocide? Yet, we can be certain that Mary forgave. I can admit that the Holocaust was among the worst of genocides (note: the OT Israelis also participated in genocide), but all of this relative-evil is beside the point.
The point is, we project upon God our own views, and holding onto condemnation is not the holiness we are called to. The invitation to forgive is an invitation to holiness. As witnessed by Eva Kor, holding onto grudges and contempt enslaves us. Every human who holds onto hatred of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Pinochet, etc is enslaved by their own resentment.
Note: Mark was quoting Jesus. You are not saying that Jesus would have changed His call to forgive, right?
We are invited to forgive Hitler if we hold anything against him. We will not know of his repentance, it cannot be known, but as Jesus forgave the unrepentant from the cross, He sets a new precedent, and He shows us the Father. Yes, Our Father loves us unconditionally, and forgiveness is a work of love, of mercy, so His forgiveness too, is unconditional. When one forgives Hitler, one knows that the Father does also. (Note: this does not mean that Hitler ultimately chose to be with Him, we cannot know that.)
Jesus from the cross presents to us the means by which we can forgive those we hate/resent. He says “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”. With these simple words He communicates an understanding of the mindset of those who crucified, they did not know what they were doing. They were blind and ignorant.
Understanding Hitler begins with “removing the post from our own eye”, it begins with painfully admitting that all of us are ignorant, and all of us are capable of the kind of blindness that makes genocide possible.
One can begin with the question, “What reasons for murdering people did Hitler have in his mind?” Of course, we have great aversion to the question. Forgiveness is not an easy path to take.
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TheTrinitySaves
Guest
Ok, I am trying to have a reasonable discussion on scripture and church teaching while you seem intent on throwing insults and personal jabs at me. If this is how you treat all people on the forum whom you disagree with, you may need to rethink the responses you seem so eager to spew out.
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Usagi
Guest
Horrible acts of mass murder were already well known in Jesus’ time. Granted, there had been nothing on the sheer industrial scale of the Holocaust, but Mark and Jesus (even with only His learned human knowledge) would have had plenty of examples of human atrocity to hand when those words were spoken and later written.
I am simply pointing out that there are large inconsistencies in your arguments. Ones that I would normally associate with someone who isn’t serious about the actual argument. If I’m wrong I apologise. You seem to be saying contradictory things. I am honestly curious to know where you get this view from.
By the way, I didn’t actually insult you.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
The statement above seems to contradict what you said in the earlier post I was asking about, and the Church does not give that power to us individually–she doesn’t really even claim it for herself.
Regarding judging a persons soul you wrote: “We are not the ‘judge’ to pronounce condemnation on anyone (not even ourselves). Only God can do that.” Given this how can you condemn Hitler–i.e. categorically declare him to be in Hell? That is usurping what only God can do. You can certainly express an opinion on the matter–something along the lines of it seems unlikely that he repented and as such is probably in hell (probably what most of us believe), but what you have been claiming seems to go far beyond that–i…e you know for a fact that he is in hell because he was beyond the reach of Gods mercy. I think you’ve been provided with the evidence that anyone can truly repent and find salvation up to the moment of their death no matter what they have done in this life.
You further wrote: “If the Church who has the authority of the keys will not judge a person to condemnation, how can we? We are never to judge a person’s state of soul.” Given that you said this–why do you persist in judging the state of Hitlers soul by condemning him to hell? Aren’t you doing what you say we are never to do?
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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TheTrinitySaves
Guest
After careful thought and deliberation of the following evidence, and using the arguements presented to me during this discussion I have changed my views on the matter. Only God can unilaterally delcare someone in Hell, and unless he sent a divine revelation to human we can not judge someone to be in hell, (even Hitler). However the posters have failed to convince me that athiests go to hell if they die atheists. That seems excessively harsh and far to compelx for the wisdom of God who truly knows whether or not their is evil in our hearts regardless of whether someone believed in him at the time of death. Thanks again
Peace.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
This is why we have these discussions–to try and help each other understand Church teaching. We have all struggled/continue to struggle with various teachings. It’s why we come here in an attempt to help each other.
I am not sure anyone has argued that atheists go to hell simply because they are atheists. Though this is probably a topic for another thread–and I’m sure if you search you can probably find one. The Church teaches: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church, but who never the less seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation” See Lumen Gentium 16 and the CCC paragraphs in the 840’s I think. It would seem to me this leaves open the door to the possibility that they could be saved in a way known only to God–but as I say this is a complex topic deserving it’s own thread.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Reepicheep
Guest
I do not believe that atheists go to hell simply for being atheists.
I do not see any evidence that the Church claims atheists go to hell simply for being atheists.
Nor do I see anyone posting to this thread who claims that atheists go to hell simply for being atheists.
I do see evidence that the Church teaches that any who persevere in seeking truth and righteousness can be saved no matter how mistaken their beliefs.
Personal note: of my two best lifetime friends one is an atheist and the other was an atheist for many years. I never despaired of their salvation. The still-atheist seems to me to be a good person honestly seeking to do right. The once-atheist is in my opinion right now, a better Christian than I am.
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TheTrinitySaves
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From the knowledge I have gained I think you’re a very good christian.
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inocente
Guest
Yes. The limit is zero.
We are all sinners, condemned, unclean, none of us is deserving, we all need Grace, or Christ’s sacrifice was for nothing.
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fbl9
Guest
Are you saying after a person becomes a christian and they commit one sin they will not be forgiven that sin?
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inocente
Guest
The opposite. You cannot earn redemption.As as Catholic, you surely accept the following?
catholic365.com/article/2893/in-reality-before-the-lord-we-are-all-sinners-and-all-in-need-of-forgiveness-all-of-us.html
catholic.com/tract/the-forgiveness-of-sins
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Reepicheep
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The limit to the number of sins we are permitted is zero.
As as Catholic, you surely accept the following?
catholic365.com/article/2893/in-reality-before-the-lord-we-are-all-sinners-and-all-in-need-of-forgiveness-all-of-us.html
catholic.com/tract/the-forgiveness-of-sins
There is no limit to the number off sins one may be forgiven provided that one sincerely repents.
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fbl9
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Nothing has been implied about permitting, but committing
My take of the OP is; Upon creating a new soul does God say well soul X I know you will commit 5,000 sins but after the 4,774th time I will forgive you no more.
i understand inocente’s answer to say after just one sin we will not be forgiven any more.
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fbl9
Guest
you think you are confused
As as Catholic, you surely accept the following?
catholic365.com/article/2893/in-reality-before-the-lord-we-are-all-sinners-and-all-in-need-of-forgiveness-all-of-us.html
catholic.com/tract/the-forgiveness-of-sins
your post makes no connection to what i asked of you. where o where did i say anything about earning?
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Wesrock
Guest
Why? ill God refuse forgiveness for the 4,775th sin if the man truly repents and comes to God? Or are you saying that God knows when the man will no longer repent of his sins?
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fbl9
Guest
i saying i understand the premise to be that after the 4,775th sin God will not forgive.
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Wesrock
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And that doesn’t answer my clearly asked question. Why does God not forgive? Because the man doesn’t repent? Or because the man reached a limit, and even sincere repentance cannot avail him anymore?
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mVitus
Guest
It’s my take that fbl is seeking clarification about Inocente is saying, not arguing God doesn’t forgive.
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