On the Tiber’s Shore II

[rlmcc83]

Thank you, @whatistrue. However, I think my foreseeable future will involve being Protestant.

 

[whatistrue]

Self preservation is in my best interest right now.
I do find it interesting how no one (not just on this board, but others as well) has said that I absolutely need to stay married and make things work

In my mind, the first sentence in that excerpt is the key to that attitude. If you are thinking in terms of self preservation, that implies (to me at least) that there is an element of fear involved. I obviously don’t know your full situation, and may be reading something into it that isn’t there, but if you are living in fear of or about your spouse, that is not healthy to me, and the Church does not require staying together (the marriage bond is a different issue than being physically together, and one that can only be addressed by a Tribunal) if you are at risk.

 

[OddBird]

I second that.

I’m in the exact same place, @rlmcc83, and one of the things we’re working on in spiritual direction is my recognizing that my marriage has an unhealthy dynamic going on, that the fear I feel shouldn’t exist in a healthy couple (just to be clear, it’s psychological stuff, not physical abuse I’m talking about here). We’re both responsible for the way we are now, and I, at least, have to do my bit to put a stop to this – but I’m going into it with open eyes, aware that it could either break our relationship or mend it for the best.

 

[humbleseeker]

For all of you struggling in your “swim”, just know that all of us on this side of the Tiber are pulling for you. Your witness and perseverance makes me appreciate my faith even more and I thank God we have those willing to sacrifice so much trying desperately to come home to the Catholic Church. Even if you can’t make it fully, know that you are all brothers and sisters in Christ and hopefully, through God’s grace, we can stand together one day on Heaven’s eternal shore.

 

[rlmcc83]

FYI, I need to be clear that I am not in a situation where I fear for my life. However, he is a very difficult personality, which causes problems. The self-preservation I talk about is mostly financial. I work full time, but am not paid well, and due to some circumstances out of my control that probably won’t change for awhile. My parents were divorced, and I realize as an adult that it affected me more that I realized, and I don’t want my daughter growing up the same way.

 

[Donald_S]

I do find it interesting how no one (not just on this board, but others as well) has said that I absolutely need to stay married and make things work. No one has told me to get a divorce, but I don’t get any encouragement to stay married, either.Especially considering how pro-marriage the Catholic Church is, I find this interesting.

Being pro-marriage doesn’t automatically equal anti-divorce. Divorce is not intrinsically evil. We don’t always find ourselves in ideal situations and there are times where divorce is acceptable. I can only recommend you speak individually to a priest if you end up considering divorce. I won’t advise you to stay or to leave because it’s a decision only you can make.

Something to consider: are you raising this concern because you want someone to say yes? No judgment intended, regardless of your answer.

 

[rlmcc83]

Something to consider: are you raising this concern because you want someone to say yes? No judgment intended, regardless of your answer.

I want someone to say yes. Because there is no alternative. I have to stay married. I do not have the money or the resources to get divorced and instigate a custody battle that I would surely lose due to my depression and lack of resources. For better or for worse, I chose this man, now I need to pay for it.
I just wish I could find out why I am so drawn to a church that clearly does not see the goodness in me or my family.
I should probably just leave. I am too much of a downer for this board. I need to learn to just walk away and go where I’m wanted.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I just wish I could find out why I am so drawn to a church that clearly does not see the goodness in me or my family.
I should probably just leave. I am too much of a downer for this board. I need to learn to just walk away and go where I’m wanted.

First of all, you’re not a downer, you’re a human being.

Second, pray for your husband & daughter that they would come into the Church with you.

Third, maybe you can get good Catholic literature that’s easy to read. If you have them in the house, maybe God will touch your husband’s heart that way. St. Augustine & St. Ignatius of Loyola were converted through good Catholic reading.

Sending you a (virtual) hug.

 

[gohjedrek]

It’s the kindness of God that leads us to repentance.
I go to daily Mass because I find the kindness of God there; it’s become air I have to breathe. It’s the only way I’ve found the strength to deal with family trauma. I just want to be near Him.
It may seem I’m boasting about my works; actually it’s 100% God giving Himself to me.

I’m sure all of the Protestants in my life think I’ve gone crazy. I have so thoroughly believed transubstantiation that I actually believe I can go be with Jesus every day. If it’s not true I really do belong in a mental hospital.

There is beauty to daily mass, a form of spiritual discipline that rewards one with the peace out of the world. This is probably one of the big reasons why I am drawn to the church. You can have outside-church activities as a protestant but it never really adds up to being able to go to church to worship daily.

I can confirm protestants deny transubstantiation, some have termed it to be an act of cannibalism. If it wasn’t true, then either early christians got it wrong or the reformers got it right. But the latter is definitely more historically inaccurate, since if that is the case why do the orthodox hold to a view close to transubstantiation.

 

[OddBird]

I can confirm protestants deny transubstantiation, some have termed it to be an act of cannibalism

Even though I’m on my way out of my Protestant tradition, I do feel a bit misrepresented here.

If you mean transubstantiation in the Thomist sense, then yes, that’s mostly true.

But if you mean in the wider sense of the Real Presence, then it’s not. Luther believed Christ was fully and totally present under both species, although he saw it as consubstantiation rather than transubstantiation.

Calvin wrote that at consecration, the “signifiers” – the species – change “signifieds” – not bread and wine any longer, but Body and Blood. That should ring a bell for anyone with a Thomist background, as Calvin himself had, and indeed, there are even reputable Catholic theologians, like Fr Sesbouë, who convincingly argue that what Calvin had in mind was actually quite close to the Thomist transubstantiation, only explained in non-Aristotelian terms (with “signified” and “signifier” respectively reformulating “substance” and “accident”).

(Poor Calvin has been misread by a wide part of the subsequent Calvinist tradition on many things, like the frequency of the Eucharist, originally celebrated four times a year as a “progression” from the yearly Easter duty. He was clear that this was temporary, out of pedagogical reasons, and that the long-term goal was communion each Sunday. Well, throughout the world, lots of Reformed communities still have communion four times a year, and get upset when told that’s not what Calvin intended…)

In my own current church, which belongs to the Reformed tradition, most people firmly believe in the Real Presence. And yes, we celebrate the Eucharist at each and every service, funerals and most weddings excepted.

It is true, though, that the Zwinglian tradition, and most of the evangelical tradition, simply see a symbolic act in the Eucharist, and sometimes virulently oppose the idea of Real Presence.

 

[gohjedrek]

I generally disagree with their concept of the real presence of the Eucharist. I met some Presbyterian Calvinist, who told me that transubstantiation is cannibalism, even though they believe in the spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. While they do hold to some degree of real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, whether they genuinely believe that the eucharist transforms into the literal body, blood, soul and divinity is a different story altogether.

The closest protestant eucharistic service I been to, has a 15-20 minutes long eucharist liturgy that is 80-85% similar in liturgy in the catholic church, however the difference is that the prayer for the eucharist after consecration, is that it may be to us the body and blood of Christ. There is a difference, because in the catholic liturgy, it may become the body and blood of Christ.

While everyone has some idea of the eucharist and might hold to real presence of christ, but transubstantiation is either a yes/no, rather than how close are you to the belief. As much as I want to sugar-coat theology, I like to be clear about transubstantiation, as that is a doctrine I genuinely agree with.

I think I showed you a link about this before, if you are concerned with how close each denomination eucharist is to transubstantiation. Then, it would be followed by orthodoxy, lutherans, calvinists and then zwingli in the order of their belief closest to transubstantiation.

 

[OddBird]

however the difference is that the prayer for the eucharist after consecration, is that it may be to us the body and blood of Christ.

As a Reformed pastor, the words I say are : “send your Holy Spirit on us, and on this bread and this wine, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ”.

(“So that it [i.e. our offering] may become for us the Body and Blood…” is also, by the way, the wording of the Roman Canon).

The only reason why I don’t believe transubstantiation happens when I say this is because I’m not ordained, and I’m Catholic enough to be conscious that my church does not have apostolic succession, and that I’m not valid matter anyway for receiving the sacrament of order. My colleagues have no such qualms, and believe their words to be performative.

 

[tuscany]

I want someone to say yes. Because there is no alternative. I have to stay married. I do not have the money or the resources to get divorced and instigate a custody battle that I would surely lose due to my depression and lack of resources. For better or for worse, I chose this man, now I need to pay for it.
I just wish I could find out why I am so drawn to a church that clearly does not see the goodness in me or my family.
I should probably just leave. I am too much of a downer for this board. I need to learn to just walk away and go where I’m wanted.

Rimcc83,
Dear one, I am so, so very sorry for the position you are in. God knows the reason for the difficulties you are facing, and He is also the one that is calling you. Keep going to Mass, keep reaching, He knows your heart.

Please, don’t leave, you are NOT a downer. You are a beautiful child of God, who’s heart is aching and troubled right now. Just as Jesus was innocent, betrayed and abandoned, He still picked up that cross and carried it. Right now, this is your cross to carry. Never forget that Jesus’ story didn’t end at His death on the cross, His story kept going, just as yours will. DO NOT GIVE UP.

Blessed Mother, please intercede for us.
Hold the sorrowful-
Mother and love the weary, abused, neglected
or forgotten among us-
Give your aid to all needing help or healing-
Assist those who are sick, in pain or suffering-
Be with those needing peace-
Console the lonely or brokenhearted-
Comfort the lost, hopeless or fearful-
Guard the unborn-
Pray for those who are dying or who have died-
Touch those who do not yet see truth or have hardened hearts-
Help us be brave enough to let our hurt and anger go-
Show us the way to do the right thing-
Protect those who are in danger, and
Guide us from every evil.
May all who keep your sacred commemoration
experience the might of your assistance.
Amen

 

[whatistrue]

I do not have the money or the resources to get divorced and instigate a custody battle that I would surely lose due to my depression and lack of resources.

Where did you hear that you would surely lose? If it was from your husband (or one of his “friends”), that is a standard tactic to keep someone under “control”, and likely is greatly exaggerated or completely false.

In any case, even though I don’t know where you live, since it appears to be where Presbyterians can worship openly and a member would have some social status I assume that there will be private organizations (or even public agencies) that would be more than willing to help. As a male, I would not try to track such places down myself, even though I have done some work at one in the course of normal employment, but I am very sure that if you discreetly spoke to a female nurse or doctor at a reasonably large hospital, a female police officer, or a female firefighter or paramedic, they could at least tell you where to look or who to contact. I do not believe that you are helpless or that your situation is hopeless. Remember that there are several people all over the world who have heard your story and care about you and how your life turns out. You will likely never meet any of us, but we do care and wish you the best.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Reading your posts is incredibly inspiring…and it makes me feel rather wimpy as a confirmed Catholic who has not yet suffered even a fraction of the amount of loss that you may!!!

God bless you on this journey.

 

[Saturninia]

no one (not just on this board, but others as well) has said that I absolutely need to stay married and make things work. No one has told me to get a divorce, but I don’t get any encouragement to stay married, either.

I’ll encourage you to aim for both: practice being a Catholic and stay married—- as far as what you’re responsible for. If your husband leaves you over Catholicism, that’s his choice. You can’t force him to love you.

You and your spouse may or may not be spiritually compatible. You work at being respectful of each person’s walk with God, and give them space to do the same. Is that really something he can’t or won’t do?

If you truly submit yourself to the healing powers of the Church (everything you’re able to do now, which is fellowship, worship, adoration, penance, pilgrimage, retreats…) you’ll show everyone more love. How could he object to that?

If you stop moving towards the Catholic Church, because of him, seems like it’d result in resentment. He needs to respect your spiritual journey. There is no true love without respect.

You tell your husband you’re willing to do whatever you can to try to save the marriage; you keep your heart clean from unforgiveness and resentment. Then you let your husband stay or go as he chooses.

Also, as far as getting the strength to endure a bad marriage: confession. My priest let me go to confession before I was confirmed. Though he asked if I was indeed intending to enter full communion.

 

[TNMan]

Spoke with the wife. Went as planned. “Ok, mass it great, but there’s some really messed up theology there.” “It May have been good once, but it’s not now.” “I think you just aren’t happy with our current church and you like the allure of Catholicism.”

We’ll see how this continues to go, but feeling discouraged.

 

[Saturninia]

Get a catechism, give it to her and ask her to highlight everything she thinks is ‘messed up theology’.
It’s not hard to read. Covers every subject succinctly.
Then at least you’ll know what you do agree on.
She will see that the theology she’s already judged is quite comprehensive, rational and beautiful.

 

[TNMan]

That’s my hope. Thank you.

 

[gohjedrek]

If you adhere to the belief of transubstantiation where the bread and wine become the literal body and blood of Christ, then it’s definitely in line with Catholic teaching. If not, then it isn’t. It is rare to find a protestant church that adheres to transubstantiation without valid apostolic succession, I can think of my high anglican church, they do believe in this, even though they do not have valid apostolic succession.

As to consecration of the eucharist, apostolic succession is essential. I think that leaves you the question of whether after knowing all this, when will you take the next step? I actually spoke to a catholic who used to skip sunday mass to attend a protestant church and interesting thing was that, she did it for a couple of years in order for scholarship. After the few years, she realised it was wrong for her to skip obligation and she made the effort to go mass on Sunday and now she goes to mass everyday, even though her family is generally non-practising. Conscience will lead you to the right place eventually, even if the obstacles seem stacked against you.