Once a Catholic...always a Catholic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Priscilla_Ann
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
So basically I can pray to anyone I want, as long as I think they are in heaven? I don’t see that in scripture either.

Did Jesus or the apostles ever pray to anyone other than God?
Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
 
Few notes:
  • I am not sure what you believe regarding Salvation, but as I know most non-Catholics believe that once you believe in God, you will be saved - meaning that you will be in Heaven when you die.
So, if you are to believe in that, then you would have no problem knowing your grandma is in Heaven.

On the other hand, if you don’t know if your grandma is in Heaven. Then, I give you the following scenario:

Let me ask you this. When you run out of money and you need some help, would you run out on the street asking strange people to let you borrow some? the worst, would you like to ask a poor man on the street for money. Or would you prefer to run to someone whom you know they will be able to help? - your parents, your uncle, etc…

Same thing with praying and asking the Saints. I know for sure Virgin Mary is Heaven. I know for sure the disciples are in Heaven. Thus, I ask them to pray for me.

Now, about praying to the saints for intercession. There are many answers to this, but let me use your own “Sola Scriptura” idea to answer you:

In Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
“Prayers of the saints” does not indicate the people on earth are praying to the saints in heaven. It indicates that when we are in heaven, we will be praying to the Lord.

Actually, I do believe that we can know if we have eternal life, and that when we pray, God hears us:

1 John 5:13-15 says:

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us --whatever we ask – we know that we have what we asked of him”

When I know that God hears me, why would I pray to anyone else? How can you know for certain that your “saints” are in heaven? If you pray to a dead relative, can you know that they are in heaven? Do you wait for the Catholic Church to tell you who you can pray to?

If I am in trouble, I will pray to Jesus…who I KNOW is in heaven, without a doubt. I know that Jesus is in heaven and he hears me. I also know that he is the one mediator between God and men.
 
“Prayers of the saints” does not indicate the people on earth are praying to the saints in heaven. It indicates that when we are in heaven, we will be praying to the Lord.
Praying and praising - can you give me good definitions on the two? I will continue discussing further this part once you help me define the terms.
Actually, I do believe that we can know if we have eternal life, and that when we pray, God hears us:

1 John 5:13-15 says:
Of course, God always hears us and every Christian shares this belief. Thanks be to God for this!
When I know that God hears me, why would I pray to anyone else? How can you know for certain that your “saints” are in heaven? If you pray to a dead relative, can you know that they are in heaven? Do you wait for the Catholic Church to tell you who you can pray to?
I know Virgin Mary and the Saints are in Heaven, and that’s why I prefer to ask them for their intercession. For my relative, I pray for them instead.

The same thing, what makes it different when you ask your friends to pray for you and we ask Virgin Mary to pray for us?

If you say they are dead and therefore they can’t hear us. However, God is God of the Living not of the dead. Do you believe Abraham is dead?
If I am in trouble, I will pray to Jesus…who I KNOW is in heaven, without a doubt. I know that Jesus is in heaven and he hears me. I also know that he is the one mediator between God and men.
Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship. I have no doubt that when I am trouble, I would pray to Him for He is God; at the same time, I have friends who are in Heaven praying for the same purpose … not to mention I also ask my buddies on earth to pray for me too.

What do you think of Moses? Did God talk to Moses’ people when they were out of Egypt? or did God talk to Moses?

Thanks for your discussion.
 
Praying and praising - can you give me a good definitions on the two? I will continue discussing further this part once you help me define the terms.

Of course, God always hears us and every Christian shares this belief. Thanks be to God for this!

I know Virgin Mary and the Saints are in Heaven, and that’s why I prefer to ask them for their intercession. For my relative, I pray for them instead.

The same thing, what makes it different when you ask your friends to pray for you and we ask Virgin Mary to pray for us?

If you say they are dead and therefore they can’t hear us. However, God is God of the Living not of the dead. Do you believe Abraham is dead?

Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship. I have no doubt that when I am trouble, I would pray to Him for He is God; at the same time, I have friends who are in Heaven praying for the same purpose … not to mention I also ask my buddies on earth to pray for me too.

What do you think of Moses? Did God talk to Moses’ people when they were out of Egypt? or did God talk to Moses?

Thanks for your discussion.
What do I think of Moses? He was friend of God.

Exodus 13:11 says:

“The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend…”

When we believe and obey, we are called friends of Jesus.

John 15:13-15 says:

“Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my father, I have made known to you.”

Again, it is obvious that we can and should go directly to Jesus…the one mediator.

Thank you all for the discussion. You have all helped to strengthen my faith. I have early church service in the morning, so I need to get to bed.

P.S. Don’t forget to set your clocks ahead tonight.

God Bless!

PA
 
Priscilla Ann,

I was “lurking” here and following this thread.

I just have to chime in to tell you something of my personal experience.

My folks were Catholic (albeit not very strong Catholics) and I was born and raised in the Church until I was 16. Then I left. Getting stoned with my friends was much more important than some God I can’t even see.

Something happened to me a few years back (too many details to talk about here) that made me believe in God; really for the first time.

But the question remained: Which Christian Church should I go to?

I’m going to be brutally honest here; If it were not for the Catholic Church, I would not believe anything written in the Bible. I might not even have believed in Jesus for that matter. God? Sure! But Jesus? He could have just been some dude with a cool philosophy on life.

I refuse to believe that Christ The Lord was so inept that he left Christianity in a state of complete confusion, or that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write down what needs to be revealed in a manner that may be loosely defined by anyone that can read.

It was the Catholic Church that decided what books belong in The Bible, and the Catholic Church that has protected it throughout the ages.

I used to confuse “feelings” with “conviction.” Now I know the difference.

Anyway…

God Bless!

†
 
What do I think of Moses? He was friend of God.
Now, you answer it to yourself. So are the Mother of the Lord and the saints! 😉
When we believe and obey, we are called friends of Jesus.
I am God’s child also, and so are the Saints. This makes us a huge family. What family members do for each other. They pray for each other. 😉
Again, it is obvious that we can and should go directly to Jesus…the one mediator.
You are not getting it. Of course, we pray to Him.

Tell me few things:

1- Do you ever ask your family to pray for you?
2- You haven’t answered me the other questions regarding when you are in Heaven, you pray to God
What is your point of praying to God if you are in Heaven?
3- Is He the God of the dead?

It seems like we both benefit from each other on this discussion. 😉
P.S. Don’t forget to set your clocks ahead tonight.
God Bless!
PA
Thanks!
God bless!
 
You are a very gracious and kind person. You are honest in your posts, without condemning those who believe differently.

My husband’s very devout evangelical family gave me a hunger to study the Bible. (Ironically, my husband had joined the Catholic Church when we married.) His parents and sisters had a relationship with Jesus Christ that went far beyond religious practices. I desperately wanted to experience the kind of relationship they had with Jesus Christ. I prayed and searched the scriptures for truth. The rest was the work of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless You!

PA
Thank you Priscilla Ann, for your very kind words.

I am glad you have developed a hunger to know more about the bible. I appreciate the thirst that only grows stronger the more it is fed by the Word.

May I suggest something, since it appears that you honestly don’t know where in the scriptures one can find support for the various teachings of the Church. Please, spend much time in prayer, asking the Holy Spirit for guidance when you explore how the Church responds to the many questions I know you have.

By all means, read scripture, read scripture and again read scripture, but even more so, read all of scripture, for we must not leave out a single iota, nor add a single word. Scripture can never contradict itself, although at first glance this may appear to be the case. When we are unable to reconcile two scriptures, we are wise to humbly accept that we might need a guide to the meaning of scripture, as the Eunich Phillip needed a teacher.

And when reading all of scripture, we need to understand just what all of scripture means. I took a little time to take a look at some of your previous posts and I believe it was in your posts that I saw questions regarding why the Catholics have more books in the OT. We follow the Canon the Jews of Christ’s time used. These books, which were dropped from the Christian Bible by Martin Luther, were first removed from the Jewish Canon well after the time of Christ. Some have suggested that it was because they contain so many references to Christ’s coming that they were removed from the Jewish Canon. There are numerous quotes of these scriptures in the New Testament.

But even if you choose at this time to stick to the Protestant Bible, because it is what you have become comfortable with reading, there is ample evidence there to help you find support for the teachings of the Church.

God Bless,

CARose
 
We are called by God to love one another. Death does not end this love. I pray for the souls in purgatory especially my family because I love them. The saints in heaven listen to us because they love us. I have a great love for Mary. I have felt her love for me. Try praying the Rosary with an open heart. I think you might be surprised.
 
We are called by God to love one another. Death does not end this love. I pray for the souls in purgatory especially my family because I love them. The saints in heaven listen to us because they love us. I have a great love for Mary. I have felt her love for me. Try praying the Rosary with an open heart. I think you might be surprised.
Yes, Suzie. To God, Love is so important that if one has faith without love, that faith is no good. At the end, we know love will be lasting forever. There is no reason to say there is no love between those in Heaven and on earth. We also know that when we love someone and care for that person, we love God.

Thanks Suzie for reminding the prayer of the rosary. Loving Mary is to love God.
 
We are called by God to love one another. Death does not end this love. I pray for the souls in purgatory especially my family because I love them. The saints in heaven listen to us because they love us. I have a great love for Mary. I have felt her love for me. Try praying the Rosary with an open heart. I think you might be surprised.
Wow, your the first Protestant who pray for the souls in purgatory, and pray the rosary… I’m amazed.
 
Leaving the Catholic Church is a sin? Which of God’s ten commandments does that violate?
I would have to say the first one.
He created a church for us.
To know that church then leave it is focusing more on self than on God. There is only one God.

The thread does make me think of the formal process to *enter *the Catholic Church.
I find it interesting that Catholics will put you through a class for a year before allowing you to join. The point is to make sure you understand what the Church is and teaches *before *you make that decision.
However, if I went to any other church, I’d be considered a member immediately even if I didn’t know all that that church teaches.

michel
 
I refuse to believe that Christ The Lord was so inept that he left Christianity in a state of complete confusion, or that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write down what needs to be revealed in a manner that may be loosely defined by anyone that can read.
Bravo! 👍
 
Priscilla Ann:
Leaving the Catholic Church is a sin? Which of God’s ten commandments does that violate?
Luke 10:1-16.

1 And after these things the Lord appointed also other seventy-two: and he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come. 2 And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send labourers into his harvest. 3 Go: Behold I send you as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes; and salute no man by the way. 5 Into whatsoever house you enter, first say: Peace be to this house.

Here the Lord Jesus appoint 72 disciples and instructs them.

6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. 7 And in the same house, remain, eating and drinking such things as they have: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Remove not from house to house. 8 And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say to them: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 10 But into whatsoever city you enter, and they receive you not, going forth into the streets thereof, say:

11 Even the very dust of your city that cleaveth to us, we wipe off against you. Yet know this, that the kingdom of God is at hand. 12 I say to you, it shall be more tolerable at that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgement, than for you. 15 And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.

16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, **despiseth him **that sent me.

**Since the Catholic Church maintains its Apostolic Succession from the Apostles, reject the teachings of the Catholic Church by leaving the Bride of Jesus Christ is a sin, which can be repented through reconciliation.

Since I do not know what is in your heart, and I don’t, only God will determine if he will forgive you for leaving His Church. I on my part shall pray for you.**
 
Just as the Catholic Church states in the CCC:

**Wounds to unity **

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

**Toward unity **

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:
  • a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
  • conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
  • prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
  • fraternal knowledge of each other;283
  • ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
  • dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
  • collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.
 
This still does not indicate that we are to pray to anyone other than the Lord. I will pray to the Lord alone. Jesus is my mediator.
You still have not shown where in the Scriptures it says not to ask for the prayers of others.

I already know that Christ who is both human and Divine, is the bridge between Man and God. That passage says nothing prohibiting us from asking fellow Christians to pray to God for us.

That is what I’m looking for, the one that says “Do not ask others to pray to for you.”

The Catholic belief that we can pray for others and ask them to pray for us is not opposed or prohibited in the Scriptures.

Is there another teaching of the Catholic Church you think is opposed or prohibited in the Scriptures?
 
Here’s a few questions that provoke thought on asking those in heaven for prayer:

We know that those in heaven are forever praising God.

Do they still love us on earth? Or do they only love God?

How do they manifest their love for us on earth?

If they still love us on earth, are their hands tied as far as being able to do anything for us?

Do they cease to be aware of us in every way?
 
I just was reading the answers and the questions of the others and with the question it brought up an answer to everyone of the previous questions and it is an answer to all.

When Jesus came to earth 2000 + years ago, he found a mess.
The Jewish people had been adding on to everything that they could to make it harder for the people to come to God. They would even forget about the poor person who they saw by the side of the road, and that poor animal who had fallen into that hole on the sabbath, and to all of the poor, the sinners, the ones who had done the worst of the worst, He had forgiven even them.

Jesus told us that there are two commandments, and if everyone lived there life by the two commandments, they would get to heaven. Love thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole heart, and thy whole soul…and the second is like the first, Love thy neighbor as yourself. If you do these things, you will be doing things right. Jesus also said that one knows not the day or the time and always to be prepared.:rolleyes:
 
Then Moses led Israel forward from the Red Sea, and they marched out to the desert of Shur. After traveling for three days through the desert without finding water, they arrived at Marah, where they could not drink the water, because it was too bitter. Hence this place was called Marah. As the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “What are we to drink?” he appealed to the LORD, who pointed out to him a certain piece of wood.
Here in the desert the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. The Israelites said to them, “Would that we had died at the LORD’S hand in the land of Egypt, as we sat by our fleshpots and ate our fill of bread! But you had to lead us into this desert to make the whole community die of famine!”
Then the LORD said to Moses, "I will now rain down bread from heaven for you. Each day the people are to go out and gather their daily portion; thus will I test them, to see whether they follow my instructions or not.
Here, then, in their thirst for water, the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “Why did you ever make us leave Egypt? Was it just to have us die here of thirst with our children and our livestock?” So Moses cried out to the LORD, “What shall I do with this people? A little more and they will stone me!” The LORD answered Moses, “Go over there in front of the people, along with some of the elders of Israel, holding in your hand, as you go, the staff with which you struck the river. I will be standing there in front of you on the rock in Horeb. Strike the rock, and the water will flow from it for the people to drink.” This Moses did, in the presence of the elders of Israel.
Did Israel not implore Moses to intercede with God on their behalf?
“The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out.” While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.
Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: “Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty? Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?
Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?” The LORD replied, “If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” Abraham spoke up again: “See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes! What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?” “I will not destroy it,” he answered, “if I find forty-five there.” But Abraham persisted, saying, “What if only forty are found there?” He replied, “I will forebear doing it for the sake of the forty.” Then he said, “Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?” He replied, “I will forebear doing it if I can find but thirty there.” Still he went on, “Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?” “I will not destroy it,” he answered, “for the sake of the twenty.” But he still persisted: “Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?” “For the sake of those ten,” he replied, “I will not destroy it.” The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.
Here, Abraham not only intercedes for the people of Sodom, but SUCCEEDS in convincing God to spare some of it’s inhabitants.
 
Well, they’re a lapsed Catholic and a formal member of another faith, probably receiving communion in their new church. This means they’ve committed the sin of schism or heresy and probably violated Catholic teaching in loads of other ways.
Is it a sin to take Communion at your current church while you’re in the process of becoming Catholic. I have mentioned to Catholics that I’m still going once a month to the Baptist church because a not as perfect as the Eucarist Communion is better than nothing. Some have agreed with that and none have ever told me what I was doing was wrong.
 
Is it a sin to take Communion at your current church while you’re in the process of becoming Catholic. I have mentioned to Catholics that I’m still going once a month to the Baptist church because a not as perfect as the Eucarist Communion is better than nothing. Some have agreed with that and none have ever told me what I was doing was wrong.
At some point you will need to decide to break ties, the sooner the better. Even though only symbolic it implies that you are in union with that Christian Community and believe what they teach.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top