Once Saved, Always Saved?

[DD2007]

Unfortunately, this attitude will not save you . This is simply complacency and is not demostrating final perseverance. You think you have done enough by simply believing these are just words. You need to demonstrate this faith with action. Jesus warned you in Matthew 7:21-23: . Clearly to Jesus, words are not enough. You need to do the will of his father.

I hope you will take all this to heart…

Christ is the one who saves. The verse you quoted is in reference to those who never really had faith but were in the Church, called, as opposed to chosen.

You can have assurance that Christ is trustworthy and be secure in His saving power. This in no way leads to complacency. Your good works come from the grace given you so they are what you actually want to do becasue of grace.

Your insistance on “complacency” is indicative that you believe in the depravity of man. If man wasn’t corupt why would he take advantage of salvation in order to comfortably do his own will? This betrays a knowledge that man’s desires are not the desire of God so with comfort he gets “complacent” in doing the things he doesn’t want to do…etc

Through grace the things of God become the things you love. You want to do them, you do not want to sin…etc So, for you to follow your desires at that point is to do the will God you become complacent to the things of the world if you are to become complacent…you are a new creation.

That is the difference.

 

[paul_c]

Christ is the one who saves. The verse you quoted is in reference to those who never really had faith but were in the Church, called, as opposed to chosen.

No, it is as says. If all you do is say you believe, rather than to demonstrate it by doing God’s will, you will be condemned. To read it any other way is to but word’s in Christ’s mouth.

You can have assurance that Christ is trustworthy and be secure in His saving power. This in no way leads to complacency. Your good works come from the grace given you so they are what you actually want to do becasue of grace

. We believe in Hope, the theological virtue by which we believe God will save the righteous. And we agree that if you are in the state of Grace, you will wish to do God’s will. But we also believe that is a matter of choice, not coersion. God wants us to come to him of our own free will, not because we are compelled to do so. And that is the essence of Love. Being forced is not love. Doing something without expecting anything is return because its the right thing to do is Love and that is what God is looking for.

Your insistance on “complacency” is indicative that you believe in the depravity of man. If man wasn’t corupt why would he take advantage of salvation in order to comfortably do his own will? This betrays a knowledge that man’s desires are not the desire of God so with comfort he gets “complacent” in doing the things he doesn’t want to do…etc

While man is not depraved by nature, he is obviously easily corrupted. Wouldn’t it be a great strategy for Satan to say through the reformers, " all you need to do is believe, you don’t really need to do anything for your salvation," thus misleading millions?

Through grace the things of God become the things you love. You want to do them, you do not want to sin…etc So, for you to follow your desires at that point is to do the will God you become complacent to the things of the world if you are to become complacent…you are a new creation.

I don’t disagree with this.

 

[DD2007]

No, it is as says. If all you do is say you believe, rather than to demonstrate it by doing God’s will, you will be condemned. To read it any other way is to but word’s in Christ’s mouth.

 

[reccanboy]

I find it interesting that the author of Hebrews makes an interesting argument against the sacrifices made under the Old Covenant, which helps us understand the perseverance of the saints.

Hebrews 10:1 *For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? *

The author comments that these same sacrifices can never make them perfect, for if they did, these sacrifices would have ceased.

Now, the important question is WHY the sacrifices would have ceased, which he answers: "because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins.

So there would be no need for more sacrifices, if this sacrifice perfected the people in a way that they would no longer have consciousness of sins, thus ceasing the sacrifice cycle.

 

[NotWorthy]

Have we not established that the good works you do are from faith? If you really have faith your works will demonstrate that. It is possible for you to do works that people consider good but in no way will they ever save you. You simply cannot in any way shape or form be saved by your works.

Would you please quit using this as an argument, for the Church has never taught it, and no one is arguing this.

What you seem to miss, is that James acknowledges that you can have faith, but without works, that faith will die. And this is the crux of the matter. Catholics understand that, in doing good works in a faithful manner, then our faith is strengthened. Catholics understand that this is why we are taught to do good works. Our Faith and our Works strengthen one another. But you can have Faith, and not have Works. It’s just that you have nothing feeding your Faith, and it will die.

 

[DD2007]

Would you please quit using this as an argument, for the Church has never taught it, and no one is arguing this.

What you seem to miss, is that James acknowledges that you can have faith, but without works, that faith will die. And this is the crux of the matter. Catholics understand that, in doing good works in a faithful manner, then our faith is strengthened. Catholics understand that this is why we are taught to do good works. Our Faith and our Works strengthen one another. But you can have Faith, and not have Works. It’s just that you have nothing feeding your Faith, and it will die.

Did you read any of paulc’s posts? He obviously believes that your works are required in addition to God’s grace for salvation. That was the conversation.

You don’t have to be taught to do good works. A person that has been given saving grace will want to do them.

 

[paul_c]

Did you read any of paulc’s posts? He obviously believes that your works are required in addition to God’s grace for salvation. That was the conversation.

You don’t have to be taught to do good works. A person that has been given saving grace will want to do them.

As Notworthy pointed out, we are not arguing that works without faith or without Grace will save you. I made that clear in my previous post.

You believe that works are required in addition to faith as well, don’t you? you said in your previous post:

If you really have faith your works will demonstrate that.

did you not? You further said,"

The reformers have always stated that faith without works is dead which means that if you don’t have works it proves that you don’t have salvation

. So, if this is true, the concept of Salvation by Faith alone is a farce and that works are indeed required. Does it not?

This also makes a farce of the OSAS concept. Because if you need to demonstrate your faith through works, you must persevere. Because under this concept, once you stop demonstrating your faith through works, you have demonstrated you really don’t have faith or saving grace and are not one of the elect. So OSAS and the entire TULIP concept become invalid.

 

[DD2007]

You believe that works are required in addition to faith as well, don’t you? you said in your previous post: did you not? You further said," . So, if this is true, the concept of Salvation by Faith alone is a farce and that works are indeed required. Does it not?

 

[NotWorthy]

Did you read any of paulc’s posts? He obviously believes that your works are required in addition to God’s grace for salvation. That was the conversation.

Yes, but that is different from your claim. You (and other non-Catholics) always say that you can’t be saved by your works alone, as if that’s what Catholics teach. We teach as Jesus taught many, many times in His parables, that Works are a part of the puzzle.

You don’t have to be taught to do good works. A person that has been given saving grace will want to do them.

Then the Epistle of James is a complete waste of time and space, for its nothing but rhetorical, eh? No matter Martin Luther wanted it burned up. Oh wait. No, you are wrong, although you’re close. It should read:

A person that has been given saving grace should want to do them (good works). Those good works, when done through a love of Christ, will bolster our Faith, which will make us want to do more works for Christs’ Body.

 

[DD2007]

Then the Epistle of James is a complete waste of time and space, for its nothing but rhetorical, eh?
.

Look, I’m not trying to argue with you guys. I’m just giving you the information that I know from this perspective.

James says faith without works is dead.

Which means:

If you are not producing works your faith is dead.

Because, when you are a new creation your works are indicative of that fact. You were once dead and now alive in Christ. So if you are not following after Christ your faith is probably dead.

It does not say: Your works are required for your salvation in addition to God’s grace.

 

[paul_c]

Look, I’m not trying to argue with you guys. I’m just giving you the information that I know from this perspective.

James says faith without works is dead.

Which means:

If you are not producing works your faith is dead.

Because, when you are a new creation your works are indicative of that fact. You were once dead and now alive in Christ. So if you are not following after Christ your faith is probably dead.

It does not say: Your works are required for your salvation in addition to God’s grace.

Of course it does. It says exactly that. In multiple places. Its too bad you are so blinded to the truth by your prior training and biases. You say yourself, " If you are not producing works, your faith is dead." How can you not understand that to mean that if you don’t produce works, you won’t be saved since we all recognize that active faith is required for salvation? That means that works are required in addition to faith and God’s graces for salvation.

One test of biblical interpretation is does your interpretation harmonize with all of scripture. If it does not, your interpretation is wrong. Salvation by Faith alone is clearly contradicted dozens of times in scripture, several of which I have quoted in the last few posts. One clear one is the quote we are referencing above.

Our goals in this should be to find the truth, not to win an argument.

 

[NotWorthy]

Look, I’m not trying to argue with you guys. I’m just giving you the information that I know from this perspective.

If you are not trying to argue with us, then it’s simple. Quit repeating what you’ve been erroneously told Catholics teach.

James says faith without works is dead.

Which means:

If you are not producing works your faith is dead.

Correct. You can have faith, but if its not working through love, then your faith will die. Its just like the parable of the sower of the seeds. You can be planted in the shallow dirt and your faith can grow and thrive for a short time. But you can then lose that faith. Why? Because you didn’t feed it and water it. So yes, you can have Faith without works, but it will die.

Because, when you are a new creation your works are indicative of that fact. You were once dead and now alive in Christ. So if you are not following after Christ your faith is probably dead.

It does not say: Your works are required for your salvation in addition to God’s grace.

Then you are simply ignoring every one of Jesus’ parables on our Judgments, my friend.

 

[DD2007]

If you are not trying to argue with us, then it’s simple. Quit repeating what you’ve been erroneously told Catholics teach.

 

[NotWorthy]

I was a Catholic. I am still on the register at my parish. I actually need to call them and let them know I left the Church. I know what they teach. I have been through RCIA twice once as a convert and once as a sponser. 85% of my theology books are Catholic with Nihl Obstat and Imprimatur.

I’m sorry, but I don’t think you are familiar with what the Church teaches. You’ve simply repeated an accusation that the Church does not teach.

And… if you’ve been through all these classes (and I’m not doubting you at all, my brother), then you know what it means to walk away from the Church.

His parables were not directives that we are saved by our works. If they were they would directly contradict this scripture:

And I didn’t say that we are saved by our Works. If you interpret Scripture the way you interpret what I’ve said, then a lot of things are becoming clear.

When did I say that Jesus’ Parables teach that we are saved by our works? I said that our works are an integral part of the puzzle.

Ephesians 2:8-9

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

There is no contradiction of the truth of the Gospel in the Bible.

And Ephesians does not contradict what I’ve been trying to tell you, either. The Grace is a free gift of God. We don’t earn it by our works. But Jesus still rewards us for doing good things out of love for Him.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by DD2007
Ephesians 2:8-9

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

There is no contradiction of the truth of the Gospel in the Bible

This section is saying that you can not be saved exclusively through works, on which we are all in agreement . Remember 1Corinthians 13. If you have faith to move mountains, but do not have love, you are nothing.

 

[DD2007]

And… if you’ve been through all these classes (and I’m not doubting you at all, my brother), then you know what it means to walk away from the Church.

And Ephesians does not contradict what I’ve been trying to tell you, either. The Grace is a free gift of God. We don’t earn it by our works. But Jesus still rewards us for doing good things out of love for Him.

This section is saying that you can not be saved exclusively through works, on which we are all in agreement . Remember 1Corinthians 13. If you have faith to move mountains, but do not have love, you are nothing.

Ok. We all agree that everyone in the room is sane. :tiphat:

Just a side note: I didn’t leave the Church I just changed which denomination of it I attend on Sunday. :yup:

It’s been interesting. I’ll see you around. Best of luck to you guys.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ok. We all agree that everyone in the room is sane. :tiphat:

Just a side note: I didn’t leave the Church I just changed which denomination of it I attend on Sunday. :yup:

It’s been interesting. I’ll see you around. Best of luck to you guys.

One last note (you mean you walked away from the Eucharist and Confession?!? ):

Romans 2:5-7 seems to shed a little light on the subject of Works having a role in our Salvation:
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

I’ve heard it argued that our Works store up riches for us in heaven, meaning the reward is simply greater, but this passage seems to argue that works help us get eternal life, not fringe benefits in our heavenly realm, for this passage talks of our judgment, not our reward.

 

[paul_c]

Ok. We all agree that everyone in the room is sane. :tiphat:

Just a side note: I didn’t leave the Church I just changed which denomination of it I attend on Sunday. :yup:

It’s been interesting. I’ll see you around. Best of luck to you guys.

I’m sorry, but the Catholic Church is not just another denomination. It is the one true Church, founded by Jesus Christ when he gave the keys to the kingdom to Saint Peter. Within the Catholic Church resides the full deposit of faith. When you choose to leave the Catholic Church, you are leaving the Truth and the Sacraments that provide the Graces you discuss as essential to salvation… When you do that you are spurning not only the church, but the Truth of Christ on which it rests. In effect, you are saying that you know better about what it takes for salvation that the Body of Christ, which is his Church. Give that some thought. Our arms are always wide open…

 

[Karen1960]

I have 4 questions for those who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS). They are:

1. Can someone think they are saved, yet not really be saved? Yes or no?
2. Was the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) in a state of justification (saved) before he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
3. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
4. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he returned to his father’s household? Yes or no?

The main point is the son had to come back to the father, had he continued to sin and stay away, he would not be saved. Although no formal confession took place, the father forgave the son.
We, as Catholics, stumble and fall, but we must come back to the Father first and confess our sins, God forgives us and we are back in His Good Graces.
The entire idea of OSAS is false. No one can stand up one day and claim he is saved for life. No one knows what our future holds, To make such an assumption on God’s part is just plain wrong.

 

[SeanTom]

If you haven’t been asked this question already by a Protestant friend, then some day you will be. And what will your answer be? One answer you can give them is: “Yes, I am saved by the Precious Blood of Christ (1 Pet 1:23-25), a salvation that is a free gift from God (Eph 2:8; Rom 5:15-16). I know that I am saved because I was baptized and have faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16).”

This question is the hallmark of most Protestant certitude concerning their salvation and religious beliefs. Of course, they firmly believe they are unconditionally saved by the blood of Jesus when they invite Jesus to be their personal Lord and Savior. From that moment on, they believe there is nothing they can do to lose their salvation.

But as Catholics, are we saved? Your response should be a confident and unequivocal, “Yes.”. The issue is actually more complex than a simple yes-or-no response. However, the “yes” response is not only correct but will at least partially diffuse the intentional or unintentional set-up into which your Protestant friend is leading you. In most cases, Protestants will either passively or actively believe that Catholics are not saved and that, furthermore, Catholics do not believe in the fullness of nor adhere to the teachings of the Bible. But you should tell them that, as Catholics, we know that being saved is a continuous journey for us, we can not take the attitude that once we are saved we can never lose Christ’s saving grace. (Ref: Ezekiel 18:20-32 and Hebrews 6:4-6) Being saved in Christ is not a one-time event for us, but rather a continuing journey in faith.

Most Protestants believe that it is by faith alone that we are saved, and that works - whether good, bad or none at all - have nothing to do with our salvation. But refer to James 2:17 - “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” And James 2:18 - “You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” (See attached)

To most Protestants, our salvation is a totally free gift from God, and there is nothing we can do to earn it or lose it. Catholics, too, believe that Salvation is an unmerited gift from God, but we also believe that we can lose it if we die in a state of mortal sin. I recall a Baptist minister preaching on the radio one morning, and he was talking about Baptists believing that once they are saved, they are saved for all time, no matter what. He went on to say that this is the reason many of them have stopped coming to his church. They believe that since they are saved for all time, they do not need to attend church or Bible studies anymore. He went on to say how wrong they were. Heb 6:4 “For it is impossible in the case of those who have been once enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.”

As stated above, (Ref: Ezekiel 18:20-32 and Hebrews 6:4-6) Being saved in Christ is not a one-time event for us, but rather a continuing journey in faith.