Once Saved--Always Saved

[Mickey]

Steven Merten:

Hello Mickey,

I
Where the Protestant theology fails is that it denies human free willed gifts of love and obedience to God that Jesus called for in order to go to heaven. Protestant theology fails to acknowledge that man posesses post baptism free willed choices to love or hate God through obedience or disobedience to God which Jesus teaches us effects whether or not we go to heaven.

Absolutely Steven! A major difference between Catholic and Protestant theology is belief in free will, in which both Luther and Calvin deny. Because of the Protestant creation of the doctrine of “sola fide”, or that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, these reformists taught that each person does not cooperate in their own salvation. In essence, Protestant doctrine is that all of our moral choices are predetermined.

 

[michaelp]

enanneman:

Hi Michael, can you respond to my question to you from this post about the scrolls in Revelation from which all the dead will be judged upon what they have done?

Thanks!

Eric

I have had a discussion about this with many people on this forum in the past about Rev. Look at the context very closely and you will see that the only dead that are judged at this judgment is unbeleivers who have experienced the second resurrection. Therefore, the dead here are judged according to their works. The Bible seems to teach two options: 1) Let Christ take your judgement, 2) Be judged according to your works.

These people here in Rev are only those who have not trusted in Christ. Notice as well the book (singlular) and the books (plural). The book (singlular) seems to be a reference to the book of life (mentioned again in Rev 22). If you name is written in this book, you do not experience the judgment by works that are recorded in the books (plural). This is a very interesting separation that John makes between the two.

Hope you are doing well.

Michael

 

[Exporter]

During my long life I have only talked to one man who was adamant about “being once saved - always saved”. I do think he believed it.

We don’t know for sure where the Apostle Judas, ended up. But it seems that he went to helleven though months before he was an Apostle. One would assume an Apostle had a very good chance of entering heaven.

Personally I do not know of any Scripture or Tradition that gives a point in time in which a man is “saved”. Therefore , it is an ongoing process.

In everyday common sence parlance, once saved always saved is nonsence.

 

[michaelp]

Exporter:

During my long life I have only talked to one man who was adamant about “being once saved - always saved”. I do think he believed it.

We don’t know for sure where the Apostle Judas, ended up. But it seems that he went to helleven though months before he was an Apostle. One would assume an Apostle had a very good chance of entering heaven.

Personally I do not know of any Scripture or Tradition that gives a point in time in which a man is “saved”. Therefore , it is an ongoing process.

In everyday common sence parlance, once saved always saved is nonsence.

It becomes very easy for people to misunderstand the various meanings of saved. When the reformers proclaimed the doctrine of perseverence, like Augustine, they believed that a person was secure in their justification and that God would grant them the gift of perseverence in faith.This does not deny that their is a future salvation that awaits the believer as well. So , the doctrine of “once saved always saved” is really “once justified always justified” since the justification is forensic being the alien righteousness of Christ. Complete salvation awaits the coming of our Lord when the last enemy is defeated–death. What a great day that will be.

So Evangelical Prostestants believe that we have been saved (Justification), we are being saved (Sanctification), and we will be saved (Glorification).

Here:

Past: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved (perfect participle) through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Present: 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved (present passive participle) it is the power of God.

Future: Romans 5:9 Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous (aorist/past passive participle) by his blood, we will be saved (future passive) through him from God’s wrath.

Notice in the Romans 5:9, justification and salvation are separated. Justification being past, salvation being present. But notice in Eph 2:8 salvation is past and therefore synonmous with justification.

We are only justified once.

If you don’t rightly understand the Evangelical position, you can look good on this site beating at a straw men views of eternal security, but if you want to correctly engage with informed Evangelicals without talking past them, you must see the distinction that people make.

Michael

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

I have had a discussion about this with many people on this forum in the past about Rev. Look at the context very closely and you will see that the only dead that are judged at this judgment is unbeleivers who have experienced the second resurrection. Therefore, the dead here are judged according to their works. The Bible seems to teach two options: 1) Let Christ take your judgement, 2) Be judged according to your works.

These people here in Rev are only those who have not trusted in Christ. Notice as well the book (singlular) and the books (plural). The book (singlular) seems to be a reference to the book of life (mentioned again in Rev 22). If you name is written in this book, you do not experience the judgment by works that are recorded in the books (plural). This is a very interesting separation that John makes between the two.

Hope you are doing well.

Michael

Michael,hello So I do not misunderstand your position,do you believe that works are not necessary for Chritians?That would not seem to be right at all If that is what your saying it sounds even presumptuous.I have to be misunderstanding you.God Bless

 

[michaelp]

Lisa4Catholics:

Michael,hello So I do not misunderstand your position,do you believe that works are not necessary for Chritians?That would not seem to be right at all If that is what your saying it sounds even presumptuous.I have to be misunderstanding you.God Bless

Works are not necessary for justiifcation.

2 Timothy 1:9 He is the one who saved us [aorist/past active] and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

But they necessarily follow justification. Salvation is not of works but is unto good works:

**Ephesians 2:8-10 **8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, *it is *the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

**Titus 3:5 **5 He saved [aorist/past active] us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

[in the Greek, in this Titus verse, Paul uses the pronoun “we” emphatically. It is repreated even though it is inclined to the verb alread. Therefore, Paul is emphatically saying that it is not OUR righteousness, but someone elses. Whose? Christ’s.

**
Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
**Romans 4:4-5 **4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Lisa, if God is powerful enough to save us, then He is powerful enough to accomplish works through us. I don’t think that He will stop halfway. Do you?

Good to hear from you Lisa, you are always here!!

Michael

 

[michaelp]

Lisa4Catholics:

Michael,hello So I do not misunderstand your position,do you believe that works are not necessary for Chritians?That would not seem to be right at all If that is what your saying it sounds even presumptuous.I have to be misunderstanding you.God Bless

Works are not necessary for justiifcation.

2 Timothy 1:9 He is the one who saved us [aorist/past active] and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5 5 He saved [aorist/past active] us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

[in the Greek, in this Titus verse, Paul uses the pronoun “we” emphatically. It is repreated even though it is inclined to the verb alread. Therefore, Paul is emphatically saying that it is not OUR righteousness, but someone elses. Whose? Christ’s.

**Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

**Romans 4:4-5 **4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

But they necessarily follow justification. Salvation is not of works but is unto good works:

**Ephesians 2:8-10 **8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, *it is *the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Lisa, if God is powerful enough to save us, then He is powerful enough to accomplish works through us. I don’t think that He will stop halfway. Do you?

Good to hear from you Lisa, you are always here!!

Michael

 

[Fiat]

Hi MichaelP

I notice that when Protestants (or at least non-Catholic Christians) talk about salvation, they are quick to point out St. Paul’s writings while ignoring much of what Christ has to say. Interestingly enough, the Holy Scriptures never record Christ mentioning the word “grace.” Instead, Christ seems to focus very heavily on what a Christian is supposed TO DO in order to one day inherit the kingdom. Obviously I am not implying that we are not saved by Grace. The Catholic Church clearly teaches that to be the case. Fortunately, though the Catholic Church also teaches us what Christ expects of us!

Fiat

 

[BjBarnett]

Faith without works is dead.

so Faith alone wont save you because without works its dead and works alone wont save you so it has to be faith and works.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

Works are not necessary for justiifcation.

2 Timothy 1:9 He is the one who saved us [aorist/past active] and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5 5 He saved [aorist/past active] us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

[in the Greek, in this Titus verse, Paul uses the pronoun “we” emphatically. It is repreated even though it is inclined to the verb alread. Therefore, Paul is emphatically saying that it is not OUR righteousness, but someone elses. Whose? Christ’s.

**Romans 11:6

And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

**Romans 4:4-5 **4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

But they necessarily follow justification. Salvation is not of works but is unto good works:

**Ephesians 2:8-10 **8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, *it is *the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Lisa, if God is powerful enough to save us, then He is powerful enough to accomplish works through us. I don’t think that He will stop halfway. Do you?

Good to hear from you Lisa, you are always here!!

MichaelI am glad you clarified that because I was concerned Grace brings with it works good works,even demons believe in God,thats why by their fruit you will know them.Mother Teresa didn’t do what she did of her own accord Lukewarmness is always a danger in the OSAS doctrine.Yes, I am here alot.My van is broken so I am sort of isolated:nope: Thats okay I enjoy chatting with other Christians.God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

c0achmcguirk:

Actually Predestination = Bible.

Baloney=non-Catholic doctrines of men…

 

[Church_Militant]

c0achmcguirk:

Actually Predestination = Bible.

Baloney=non-Catholic doctrines of men…

 

[michaelp]

BjBarnett:

Faith without works is dead.

so Faith alone wont save you because without works its dead and works alone wont save you so it has to be faith and works.

It is faith alone that saves, but not the kind of faith that will be alone.

We are almost there! United again!!! Welcome back! (Or, from your perspective, good to be home!!). Now we have to do something about that infallibility thing.

Michael

 

[michaelp]

Church Militant:

Baloney=non-Catholic doctrines of men…

Good to see ya Militant!! Long time no talk.

Hope you are doing well.

Michael

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Michael, put the link I have on my signature in your favorites and read it I told you I would bug you about the Saints,oh, about the works Grace=Faith=works.God Bless

 

[TPJCatholic]

To all,

I was hoping to hear some more aggresive arguments for/against my theory that if we OSAS, then we can basically do/believe anything and we would still be saved…

(obviously I do not agree with OSAS, which is why I am posting this challenge).

 

[Exporter]

Especially to michaelP.

The original questions was ,“Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?”

MichaelP, you read the questio. Why is it that you have introduce Your Vocabulary ( which is nonCatholic) in to the mix? You have gone back to your almost rhetorical use of salvation, gloryfication and justification to talk about the original question.

Its almost like a man I know who lived his early life in Japan. When he gets excited he spills over into Japanese - it’s funny. Can’t you talk about “Once Saved - Always Saved” without introducing new terms? Keep it simple MaGee.

 

[Exporter]

Especially to michaelP.

The original questions was ,“Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?”

MichaelP, you read the questio. Why is it that you have introduce Your Vocabulary ( which is nonCatholic) in to the mix? You have gone back to your almost rhetorical use of salvation, gloryfication and justification to talk about the original question.

Its almost like a man I know who lived his early life in Japan. When he gets excited he spills over into Japanese - it’s funny. Can’t you talk about “Once Saved - Always Saved” without introducing new terms? Keep it simple MaGee.

 

[michaelp]

Lisa4Catholics:

Michael, put the link I have on my signature in your favorites and read it I told you I would bug you about the Saints,oh, about the works Grace=Faith=works.God Bless

Lisa, I really think that you and I are on the same page, but we just can’t quite articulate it the same. We will get there.

 

[michaelp]

Exporter:

Especially to michaelP.

The original questions was ,“Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?”

MichaelP, you read the questio. Why is it that you have introduce Your Vocabulary ( which is nonCatholic) in to the mix? You have gone back to your almost rhetorical use of salvation, gloryfication and justification to talk about the original question.

Its almost like a man I know who lived his early life in Japan. When he gets excited he spills over into Japanese - it’s funny. Can’t you talk about “Once Saved - Always Saved” without introducing new terms? Keep it simple MaGee.

Sorry brothers (and sister!), did not mean to highjack.

Have a great one.

Michael