Once Saved, Always Saved

[Carlan]

I seriously doubt I’d go to heaven right now. I’m like Adam hiding from the Lord. I want grace deep down inside but I’m so weak and disgusting.

Head for the confessional SM, God’s actual grace is drawing you friend. Peace, Carlon

 

[elvisman]

Not all sin is mortal (deliberate and willful). Original sin is not, and venial sins are not.

Yes, but Mortal sin also involves grave matter. As for Original sin - yes, you have a point. I wasn’t referring to that, but I should have made that point clear. Venial sin is done deliberately as well.

The point I was trying to make to Brian was to counter his statement that true disciples would NEVER turn away. For a Christian to sin, it always involves disobedience and the Scriptures I provided prove that point.

Luke 12:46-48
47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

Both slaves fall short, but only one has knoweldge, and that one is more culpable.

John 19:10-12
11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

The more a person has authority and knowledge, the more guilt is imputed for the sin.

1 Peter 1:14-16
14 Like obedient children, do not be conformed to the desires that you formerly had in ignorance. 15 Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 for it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Living according to the desires of the flesh is a sin, but many do so in ignorance, not knowing how to be holy.

Eph 2:1-3

You were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.

This state of sin results from ignorance, in most cases. People who are living according to the flesh don’t need to make a willful choice to disobey God. It just comes naturally. The flesh is set against the Spirit.

Sin, at its very core is rebellion. The is a natural Law that tells us what is wrong and what is right. We know that taking something from somebody is wrong, or murder, lying, cheating on one’s spouse, etc., is wrong - regardless of how we rationalize it.**

The fact that many people rationalize these things is more of a societal issue than a purely moral one. In other words, they know that something is wrong, but society in it’s infinitely relativist state tells them that it may be wrong for some but not for others.

 

[fbl9]

i have never gotten an answer from osas supporters as to why they repent after sinning, and how is that they can claim to be saved yet still sin in light that they consider all sin equally grave before God.

 

[RG7323]

Grace,

Is there some sin that you think that Jesus didn’t cover at the cross?

“‘Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgivness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’ [Mk. 3:29; Mt. 12:32; Lk. 12:10] There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. [John Paul II, DeV 46] Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.”

There are six sins that offend the Holy Spirit. These are:

(1) Despair,
“By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.” (C.C.C. # 2091)

(2) Presumption of God’s mercy,
“There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).” (C.C.C. # 2092)

(3) Impugning the known truth,
(Clarification: To “impugn” the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.)

(4) Envy the spiritual good of another,
(Clarification: Regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians states, “All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually as the Spirit chooses.” To envy the spiritual good of another is to question the Divine judgment of the Holy Spirit in His distribution of spiritual gifts. It is to be jealous of another person who has a gift different than one’s own gift. Through envy, one rejects the gift that he has received from the Holy Spirit, determining in his own mind that the gift he has received is not good enough for him and he wants someone else’s gift.)

(5) Obstinacy in sin,
(Clarification: To be “obstinate” means to resist the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, to be stubborn, to persist in sin, to be unyielding.)

(6) Final impenitence.
(Clarification: “Impenitence” means to be uncontrite, unrepentant, hardened, unconverted, to be without regret, shame or remorse.)

Where do I find in the Holy Bible the reference to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” [Mt. 12:32]

“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” [Mk. 3:29]

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.” [Lk. 12:10]

 

[Robert_in_SD]

What I stated was, true disciples WOULD never turn away.

Peter turned away. All of the Apostles ran away. Only John stayed by the Cross at the crucification. I think you’re fooling yourself with this line of reasoning.

BTW - I ask the same question, “Why would someone who knows Jesus ever turn away?” But Adam and Even “walked with God” and even they could be turned away by Satan’s appeal to vainglory, that they could become “like God.” Even one in a right relationship with God can be tempted to jump out of His hand. The scriptural warnings to keep the faith have already been cited numerous times to you on this point.
BC:

There is no loss of free will for Christians. What you apparently fail to understand about this is that Christians are held to Christ by love, and love produces obedience.

This is a small movement toward the Catholic position if what you are saying is that our love of Christ holds us fast to Him. But love is not a feeling. It is a choice that we make in faith, to love in Christ.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Brian I am sure that you would agree that Paul bore much fruit yet even Paul wasn’t absolutely assured of his salvation. “I am not aware of anything against myself but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronouncement before the Lord comes.” 1 Cor 4:4-5

Seems to me that you are already pronouncing yourself saved yet Paul says we cannot do that. The Lord will judge us.

Paul did not say he wasn’t assured of his salvation. He said that he is not justified by his own conscience. Mans judgment means nothing it is God who justifies. I do not consider myself saved by my own judgment either. I say I am saved because that is what God has promised to those who love Him.

Paul considered himself a fellow citizen with the saints in heaven. He also taught that we are the children of God, and as children we are heirs of the promise.

“The Spirit itself bears testimony with our spirit that we are children of God. But if children, also heirs: heirs, indeed, of God, but joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him. that we may also be glorified with him.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

“The Scripture has shut up all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those that believe.” (Gal. 3:22)

“For you are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus; for as many of you as were baptized into Christ, put on Christ. There is not Jew, neither Greek; there is not servant, neither freeman; there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. But if you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s posterity, heirs according to promise.” (Gal. 3:26-29)

“I pommel my body and subdue it lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” 1 Cor. 9:27

The Greek word there is adokimos which also means “reprobate.”

It wasn’t until Paul was at the end of his life and in prison when he said " I am already on the point of sacrifice, the time of my departure has come.I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on the Day." 2 Tim 3:6

We need to wait and see if we have fought the good fight and kept the faith and are at the point of being martyred for the faith before we can have confidence that we will be rewarded the crown.

Paul actually said just before this that he runs “not with uncertainty.” Every person who runs the race in faith can and should be certain of obtaining the crown. Paul was confident not presumptuous. Paul understood, as should we, that in order to obtain the crown one must run the race. Running the race means keeping ourselves in subjection to God. We stumble a lot during the race, but we do not fall because God holds us up.

To fall would mean to be disqualified, and to be disqualified would mean that we stopped loving God. But God, knowing our end, would not bear witness to us by His Holy Spirit that we are His children while knowing that we haven’t the love in hearts to follow Christ.

I know who I am in Christ. I run the race with confidence knowing by faith that I will finish. You Catholics run the race with no confidence wondering if you will finish. What do you anticipate as you run the race? Do you run in and out of grace? Does one become a child of God then not a child of God, then back again? God’s family is not dysfunctional and it doesn’t work that way. You are either a child of God or you are not. And if you are a child of God then you are a partaker of the promise and you can be confident of who you are and where you are going. Otherwise you are just running around blind.

“But he that was sown on good ground, is he that hears the word and understands it, who also bears fruit, and produces, one a hundred fold, one sixty, one thirty.” (Mat. 13:23)

 

[Brian_Culliton]

With all due respect if I misunderstand what you are saying that may be as much about what you say as what I hear.

Let me see if I “understand” what you are saying. We are sinners, correct? Then we accept Jesus into our lives and we dont stop being sinners we just stop sinning right? No thats proabably not right because NO ONE would say we stop sinning but protestants believe the sins have already been covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross, isnt that correct? So the sins we are going to commit, because we are sinners, dont anount to a hill of because they have been covered and we cant lose our salvation anyway but then you say if we are sincere about our faith is Jesus we wont want to sin, correct?

Now I wonder why I’d “misunderstand” your position? I am a sinner and I continue to sin but if I sincerely accept Jesus I wont want to sin but I cant say I’m sinless but I just said I’m a sinner. YOU need to help me sort this out.

I never said or implied that I am sinless. I said I am saved. I also said that we who are saved abhor the sins we commit. Our will is not to sin, but to please God. This doesn’t mean we don’t sin; it doesn’t mean we are not responsible for what we do; it doesn’t mean we do not repent. We work out our salvation (salvation we possess) with reverent fear. It is not a fear of losing our salvation; it’s respect to our Father in heaven and what He has done for us. We are always being sanctified as we learn. When a branch bears fruit it is pruned by the Vinedresser so that it will bear more fruit. Fruit bearing branches are never cut off.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Yes, but we are not held prisoners. We can walk away whenever we wish.
God’s grace is a gift - even the grace to believe. How can it be a gift if it is forced upon us ans we cannot refuse it. A gift is only a gift when it can be accepted OR refused.
Pity you can’t see that.

It’s a pity you have such little confidence in your faith.

…Unbiblical?? All sin IS willful disobedience.
Show me ONE place in Scripture that talks about sin being accidental. Sin not something that we don’t will to do - it is something that we do willfully.

Okay, but first let me briefly demonstrate the gospel according to Elvisman.

“All sin IS willful disobedience.” (Elvisman)

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:26-27) Previously posted by Elvisman.

You say that if this were true - nobody would be saved. That is a completely unbiblical view of sin and forgiveness.

I think you are saying it.

The Apostle Paul taught…

Romans 7:15-8:2

15 For what I work I know not; for I practice not what I wish, but what I hate this I do.
16 But if I do this that I wish not, I agree with the law that it is good;
17 and now I no longer do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that there dwells in me, that is, in my flesh, no good. For to will is present with me, but to work out the beautiful, not;
19 for the good that I wish I do not, but the evil that I hate, this I practice.
20 But if I do this that I wish not, I no longer do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find, then, the law, to me wishing to do the good, —That evil is present with me;
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23 but I see a different law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and making me a captive in the law of sin that is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 Thanks to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord: so, then, I myself with the mind indeed serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
8:1 There is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made thee free from the law of sin and of death. (Codex Sinaiticus)

This is PRECISELY why Scripture tells us that we DO fall and need to repent of it. We don’t repent only ONCE in life - but every time we sin. As sinners, we are in constant need of forgiveness that only comes with repentance.

In 1 Tim. 1:15, even Paul admitted to being a sinner: “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

How dare YOU claim that you aren’t. THAT is spiritual pride . . .

Aren’t what, a sinner? Where did I claim that? Was it when I said we are made perfect in Christ? I believe you asked me for the date I was made perfect?

My apologies; sometimes I forget that some of the people reading my posts are not accustom to hearing things like this. What it means is that when our sins are imputed to Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. In other words, it is not me that is perfect it is Christ. I am made perfect in Him. I probably didn’t explain it well, but I hope you at least see where I am coming from.

 

[guanophore]

I seriously doubt I’d go to heaven right now. I’m like Adam hiding from the Lord. I want grace deep down inside but I’m so weak and disgusting.

You are ready for Divine Mercy!

 

[guanophore]

Venial sin is done deliberately as well.

Not necessarily. I think this is made clear in Jesus’ parable about the slaves. Those who fell short in ignorance still fell short. They did not do it deliberately.

We all fall short in many ways, not necessarily on purpose.

The point I was trying to make to Brian was to counter his statement that true disciples would NEVER turn away.  For a Christian to sin, it always involves disobedience and the Scriptures I provided prove that point.

I am in agreement with your point, of course, but I think that Reformed Christians don’t consider sin t separate man from God anymore. They seem to believe that the nature of sin has changed “this side of the cross”, and that sin no longer has the same effects on a human being as previously. They also confuse God’s love with His salvation. In thinking that God will not allow those He loves to fall into hell, sin becomes of no consequence.

Sin, at its very core is rebellion. The is a natural Law that tells us what is wrong and what is right. We know that taking something from somebody is wrong, or murder, lying, cheating on one’s spouse, etc., is wrong -* regardless* of how we rationalize it.

But Reformed Christians believe that an ontological change has taken place, and that a regenerated person no longer desires to commit such acts.

PS this post was much easier to read in edit because it did not have so many colors and fonts, thanks.

 

[fbl9]

I know who I am in Christ. I run the race with confidence knowing by faith that I will finish. You Catholics run the race with no confidence wondering if you will finish. What do you anticipate as you run the race? Do you run in and out of grace? Does one become a child of God then not a child of God, then back again? God’s family is not dysfunctional and it doesn’t work that way. You are either a child of God or you are not. And if you are a child of God then you are a partaker of the promise and you can be confident of who you are and where you are going. Otherwise you are just running around blind.

“But he that was sown on good ground, is he that hears the word and understands it, who also bears fruit, and produces, one a hundred fold, one sixty, one thirty.” (Mat. 13:23)

What value is repentance?. Why even bother to repent if as you claim you will not suffer loss of grace?

 

[Third_Day]

=Brian Culliton;7712651]Paul did not say he wasn’t assured of his salvation. He said that he is not justified by his own conscience. Mans judgment means nothing it is God who justifies. I do not consider myself saved by my own judgment either. I say I am saved because that is what God has promised to those who love Him.

God’s promise is to those who love him **and **keep his commandments not those that just accept Him as their personal savior. Paul is saying that only the Lord pronounces eternal judgment and he cannot say he is justified yet you have done exactly that. You have pronounced yourself eternally secure.

Paul considered himself a fellow citizen with the saints in heaven. He also taught that we are the children of God, and as children we are heirs of the promise

All of that is conditional on our obedience of faith. I am sure that you consider yourself a citizen of heaven and an heir of the promise. Brian, if you commit adultery and do not confess and repent are you still a heir of the promise?

“The Spirit itself bears testimony with our spirit that we are children of God. But if children, also heirs: heirs, indeed, of God, but joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him. that we may also be glorified with him.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

Notice the condition “If we suffer with him” At the beginning of this letter Paul told those in Rome that he was to bing about “the obedience of faith.” To be an heir of the promise one must have faith and obedience.

“

The Scripture has shut up all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those that believe.” Gal 3:22

Paul told these same born again “saved” Galatians “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…… “I warn you as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”

If the Galatians were assured of their salvation there would be no reason to warn them

“For you are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus; for as many of you as were baptized into Christ, put on Christ. There is not Jew, neither Greek; there is not servant, neither freeman; there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. But if you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s posterity, heirs according to promise.” (Gal. 3:26-29)

Paul told these same Galatians that are heirs according to the promise: “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to the flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but he sows to the Spirit will form the Spirit reap eternal life.” Gal 6:7-8

If the Galatians were assured of their salvation there would be no reason to tell them not to be deceived.

Paul actually said just before this that he runs “not with uncertainty.” Every person who runs the race in faith can and should be certain of obtaining the crown.

Paul doesn’t say he runs with absolute assurance.

Paul was confident not presumptuous. Paul understood, as should we, that in order to obtain the crown one must run the race. Running the race means keeping ourselves in subjection to God. We stumble a lot during the race, but we do not fall because God holds us up.

Brian let’s say you stumble and kill someone. You never confess or repent. Will God still hold you up when you sit at the judgment seat of Christ? Will you with un-confessed and un-repented murder on your soul enter eternal life?

I know who I am in Christ. I run the race with confidence knowing by faith that I will finish. You Catholics run the race with no confidence wondering if you will finish. What do you anticipate as you run the race? Do you run in and out of grace?

Sin is a rejection of God’s grace. Confession and true repentance is a restoring of grace.

Does one become a child of God then not a child of God, then back again? God’s family is not dysfunctional and it doesn’t work that way. You are either a child of God or you are not.

God will always love us and He will always be faithful but only IF we repent and confess our sin. This is why scripture is full of warnings to born again Christians. We have the free will to reject God’s grace and commit deadly sins.

And if you are a child of God then you are a partaker of the promise and you can be confident of who you are and where you are going. Otherwise you are just running around blind.

One must remain an obedient child of God to be saved. Scripture is clear that we can lose our salvation.

Ezek 18:24 But if a **righteous man **turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness **he is guilty **of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

“

But he that was sown on good ground, is he that hears the word and understands it, who also bears fruit, and produces, one a hundred fold, one sixty, one thirty.” (Mat. 13:23)

How do you know that you are the one sown on the good ground? You may be one that has no root.

“And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word receive it with joy, but these have no root, they believe for awhile and in time of temptation fall away.”

Luke 8:9-13 clearly shows that we can believe for awhile and fall away. And this belief is a saving faith for in verse 12 Jesus tells us that the devil comes and takes this belief away ‘lest they be saved.”

 

[guanophore]

Paul did not say he wasn’t assured of his salvation.  He said that he is not justified by his own conscience.  Mans judgment means nothing it is God who justifies.  I do not consider myself saved by my own judgment either.  I say I am saved because that is what God has promised to those who love Him.

Why do you disobey the Apostle when he clearly says “do not pronouce judgement before the time”?

 Paul considered himself a fellow citizen with the saints in heaven.  He also taught that we are the children of God, and as children we are heirs of the promise.

Indeed, in baptism we are made citizens with the saints in heaven. We are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Light. we are made heirs to the promise. However, citizens can renouce their citizenship, children can walk away from their inheritance.

“The Spirit itself bears testimony with our spirit that we are children of God. But if children, also heirs: heirs, indeed, of God, but joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him. that we may also be glorified with him.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

This is a good example of conditional language, which is found throughout the scripture. When the scripture says “if” and “providing that”, it means that the conditions must be met in order for the outcome to occur. There is so much of this conditional language that must occur in order for OSAS to be true it is phenomenal.

“For you are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus; for as many of you as were baptized into Christ, put on Christ. There is not Jew, neither Greek; there is not servant, neither freeman; there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. But if you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s posterity, heirs according to promise.” (Gal. 3:26-29)

You are aware that not all the posterity of Abraham inherited the promise, right?

Paul actually said just before this that he runs “not with uncertainty.” Every person who runs the race in faith can and should be certain of obtaining the crown.

No, Brian. You are twisting the Scriptures. Paul does not say he is certain of obtaining the crown. He says he runs so as to win it.

1 Cor 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one. 26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air; 27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

Why would he make reference to the possiblity of being disqualified, if it were not possible?

1 Cor 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one. 26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air; 27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.
NRSV

Paul was confident not presumptuous. Paul understood, as should we, that in order to obtain the crown one must run the race. Running the race means keeping ourselves in subjection to God. We stumble a lot during the race, but we do not fall because God holds us up.

He does, if we are willing to be upheld.

To fall would mean to be disqualified, and to be disqualified would mean that we stopped loving God. But God, knowing our end, would not bear witness to us by His Holy Spirit that we are His children while knowing that we haven’t the love in hearts to follow Christ.

The fact is Brian, that a person can become a partaker of His grace, come to love Him, follow Him, and enter the race, yet fall away, spurn the blood that bought him, and crucify the Son of God afresh.

 

[guanophore]

I know who I am in Christ. I run the race with confidence knowing by faith that I will finish. You Catholics run the race with no confidence wondering if you will finish.

Brian, I find these types of stereotyped accusations insulting. I understand that you have some deep prejudices against the Catholic faith (and Catholics apparently) but I would appreciate it if you could set them aside while you are here on the forums. Perhaps you could try role play? Maybe you could pretend that there are Catholics who understand grace, walk in it as you do, and also have confidence that we are upheld by grace, through faith?

What do you anticipate as you run the race?

Since your prejudice does not seem to allow you to believe that we anticipate the same as you, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Do you run in and out of grace?

It is more like falling from grace, then jumping back into it.

Does one become a child of God then not a child of God, then back again?

No, but a child is still a child when he runs from the will of the parent. God created us free, and He does not compel us to be in relationship with Him. He draws us, and desires us, but if we choose to deny Him, He will deny us.

God’s family is not dysfunctional and it doesn’t work that way. You are either a child of God or you are not.

You are creating a strawman again, Brian. The Catholic Church teaches that we are made children of God in baptism. This creates an indelible mark on the soul. Have you considered taking issue with what the Catholic Church actually teaches, rather than these vain imaginings of yours?

And if you are a child of God then you are a partaker of the promise and you can be confident of who you are and where you are going. Otherwise you are just running around blind.

I agree. However, a person can become a partaker of His grace, then fall away from the faith.

Heb 10:28-31
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[guanophore]

We are always being sanctified as we learn. When a branch bears fruit it is pruned by the Vinedresser so that it will bear more fruit. Fruit bearing branches are never cut off.

Brian, while you are studying, you might want to learn a little about pruning of vines. You are contradicting yourself in this statement, and it appears that you do not understand pruning at all.

To be pruned is to be cut back. You are right that when a branch bears fruit is is pruned. By definition, it is a fruit bearing branch that is cut, to make it bear more fruit.

If you mean that branches that are rooted in Christ will not be cut off, then I agree. However, it is possible for the Word of God to sprout in a person, for them to become partakers of grace, produce fruit, then turn away from God.

 

[guanophore]

It’s a pity you have such little confidence in your faith.

I am so confused by this statement, Brian. I cannot see how it relates to elvis’ post. He is pointing out that salvation is a free gift that can be rejected. What does that have to do with having “confidence in faith”?

Does a person rejecting a gift make it less of a gift?

“All sin IS willful disobedience.” (Elvisman)

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:26-27) ]/quote]

I think you are confused, Brian. This passage is from the NT. As passionate as elvisman is about his faith, he has never claimed to have authored any NT books.

 

[elvisman]

It’s a pity you have such little confidence in your faith.
Okay, but first let me briefly demonstrate the gospel according to Elvisman.

“All sin IS willful disobedience.” (Elvisman)

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:26-27) Previously posted by Elvisman.
I think you are saying it.

The Apostle Paul taught…

Romans 7:15-8:2

15 For what I work I know not; for I practice not what I wish, but what I hate this I do.
16 But if I do this that I wish not, I agree with the law that it is good;
17 and now I no longer do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that there dwells in me, that is, in my flesh, no good. For to will is present with me, but to work out the beautiful, not;
19 for the good that I wish I do not, but the evil that I hate, this I practice.
20 But if I do this that I wish not, I no longer do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find, then, the law, to me wishing to do the good, —That evil is present with me;
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23 but I see a different law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and making me a captive in the law of sin that is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 Thanks to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord: so, then, I myself with the mind indeed serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
8:1 There is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made thee free from the law of sin and of death. (Codex Sinaiticus)

Aren’t what, a sinner? Where did I claim that? Was it when I said we are made perfect in Christ? I believe you asked me for the date I was made perfect?

My apologies; sometimes I forget that some of the people reading my posts are not accustom to hearing things like this. What it means is that when our sins are imputed to Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. In other words, it is not me that is perfect it is Christ. I am made perfect in Him. I probably didn’t explain it well, but I hope you at least see where I am coming from.

**First of all - “imputed righteousness” is a Protestant error. Christ MAKES us righteous. YOU claimed that he makes us righteous, yet you keep blathering on about imputed righteousness. **Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING unclean can enter heaven - not even Luther’s “snow-covered dunghills” . . .

You are the very type of person that Peter warns about in 2 Pet. 3:16, when he says about Pauls letters: "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

---

**Paul says many things about how we are changed in Christ - which we ARE. But, he also states how unworthy we are - and HE is - when he calls himself the CHIEF of sinnes 1 Tim. 1:16. The verses you provided pretty much PROVE what I’ve been saying, so I really don’**t see your point.

 

[elvisman]

Not necessarily. I think this is made clear in Jesus’ parable about the slaves. Those who fell short in ignorance still fell short. They did not do it deliberately.

We all fall short in many ways, not necessarily on purpose.

But you DO agree that venial sin CAN be deliberate I take it? To say that all venial sin is not willfull disobedience goes too far.

I would also reiterate the natural law written in the hearts of men. Part of the fall of man was the ability to know good from evil and to choose evil enyway.

But Reformed Christians believe that an ontological change has taken place, and that a regenerated person no longer desires to commit such acts.

Agreed - yet people like Brian speak of imputed righteousness out of one side of their mouths, while espousing the belief that we are MADE righteous out of the other . . .

 

[Michael1978]

It’s a pity you have such little confidence in your faith.

Who are you to question someone’s faith? Your arrogance is astounding.

 

[guanophore]

**First of all - “imputed righteousness” is a Protestant error. **

Not entirely. I think if you read Rom. 4 you can clearly see the concept there. In your version, it may be translated “reckoned”, but the meaning is the same.

The fact that God imputes righteousness to us by grace, through faith, though does not negate your staement that follows:

Christ MAKES us righteous.

For anyone who dies immediately after baptism, the imputed righteousness is sufficient, s in His blood all sins (original and personal) are washed way.

For those of us that remain, sanctification begins, in which we are made into the righteous pesons that God has forensically declared us to be.