Once Saved, Always Saved

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But you DO agree that venial sin CAN be deliberate I take it?
Yes, of course!
To say that all venial sin is not willfull disobedience goes too far.
Just about as “too far” as saying that all sin is deliberate. 😃
I would also reiterate the natural law written in the hearts of men. Part of the fall of man was the ability to know good from evil and to choose evil enyway.
Yes, but when we were made slaves of sin, it became our fallen nature to walk in the passions of our flesh, and this is a reflection of the fallen condition, not necessarily a deliberate choice. People do not CHOOSE to be slaves.
Agreed - yet people like Brian speak of imputed righteousness out of one side of their mouths, while espousing the belief that we are MADE righteous out of the other . . . :rolleyes:
Both things are true. We pray that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
 
Not entirely. I think if you read Rom. 4 you can clearly see the concept there. In your version, it may be translated “reckoned”, but the meaning is the same.

The fact that God imputes righteousness to us by grace, through faith, though does not negate your staement that follows:

For anyone who dies immediately after baptism, the imputed righteousness is sufficient, s in His blood all sins (original and personal) are washed way.

For those of us that remain, sanctification begins, in which we are made into the righteous pesons that God has forensically declared us to be.
**God’s righteousness is imparted to us – not simply imputed. This is what Augustine referred to as “infused righteousness”.

The Church teaches that we are not simply declared righteous because we are covered by Christ’s righteousness – he makes us righteous. As I pointed out before, imputed righteousness is the basis for Luther’s snow-covered dunghills theory. NOTHING unclean can enter heaven – not matter how much it is are covered up.
 
The Church teaches that we are not simply declared righteous because we are covered by Christ’s righteousness – he makes us righteous. As I pointed out before, imputed righteousness is the basis for Luther’s snow-covered dunghills theory. NOTHING unclean can enter heaven – not matter how much it is are covered up.
yes, The Catholic Church considers essential that Justification is infused righteousness not imputed.
For the Protestant, using the imputation model, need Christ to do for the corrupt man what he cannot do for himself ever.
While the Catholic infusion model(so to speak) needs Christ to open up the floodgates of grace to flow back into our souls to enable us to do what God requires of us.
Catholics teach it is by infusion of grace.
Not a covering over of sin as the Protestant believes it to be.
Peace, Carlan
 
Yes, but when we were made slaves of sin, it became our fallen nature to walk in the passions of our flesh, and this is a reflection of the fallen condition, not necessarily a deliberate choice. People do not CHOOSE to be slaves.
Wouldn’t you agree that sin is a deliberate choice? While no one would choose to be a slave a man does choose to be a slave to sin. If one is addicted to pornography isn’t it his choice to be a willing slave?
 
Wouldn’t you agree that sin is a deliberate choice? While no one would choose to be a slave a man does choose to be a slave to sin. If one is addicted to pornography isn’t it his choice to be a willing slave?
Before grace man is a slave to sin, he really has no choice till he has recieved grace.

i don’t think that the person chooses to be the slave in the case given.
 
Before grace man is a slave to sin, he really has no choice till he has recieved grace.

i don’t think that the person chooses to be the slave in the case given.
Even after grace a man can choose to be a slave to sin.No man is forced to remain in God’s grace.
 
Even after grace a man can choose to be a slave to sin.No man is forced to remain in God’s grace.
So the person who is tempted and falls can not repent. The person upon giving in to temptation said in their heart " I reject God and serve porn as it’s slave" Are you impling that upon giving into temptation, once, the said person is trapped as a slave.
 
Originally Posted by Third Day View Post
Even after grace a man can choose to be a slave to sin.No man is forced to remain in God’s grace.
Quote: fbl9

So the person who is tempted and falls can not repent. The person upon giving in to temptation said in their heart " I reject God and serve porn as it’s slave" Are you impling that upon giving into temptation, once, the said person is trapped as a slave.


The person who is tempted and falls in sin to porn once can be a slave to lust and he can repent. That is, he must first be seeking God, seeking God with a change of mind with a return to God . He must choose to hate his sin, firmly resolve to not enter the near occasion of sin, and do his penance well. CCC 1490

God’s essence will not change. God is always gracious to the humble and pure in heart .] 1 Peter 5:5

Christ equips us to be righteous and to be holy, only by His grace; not through man’s achievements.

He will be our God our Father His responsibility to us ].
Likewise we have the responsibility to be His people, through submission + obedience to fulfilling ] His holy will.

Can a believer who loves God and obeys His voice, choose to no longer believe in Him and forfeit salvation i.e., forfeit God’s grace] by unbelief in God ? Yes.

Most sins are deliberate. Man can choose to no longer believe in God, and forfeit ] God’s grace with an unrepentant, stubborn heart. [Christians] need to be aware of the slow deceitfulness of sin [Heb 3:12-13] in which the heart and mind gradually ] becomes hardened against the love for God see Deut. 29:19. ] Anyone can be deceived to not keep God’s commandments due to being in love and enjoying the false god of lust / pornography / adultery/ incest/ cohabitation / even flirting with lustful intentions. [James 4:4 ] Man who once believes in God can choose to hate God by his unconscious ] choices to NOT want to KNOW Him. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

Genuine faith means we love God. When we love God, we keep His commandments which aren’t burdensome and we enter life. Matt 19: 17; 2Peter 1:5-7; 1 John 5:2-3]
source: Thank you Mike Forrester!
 
**God’s righteousness is *imparted ***to us – not simply imputed. This is what Augustine referred to as “infused righteousness”.
Yes, of course. But the Scriptures do contain the concept of imputation. It is not just a Protestatant invention. Granted, like many other scriptural terms, it has been redefined to teh extent that the meaning taught by the Apostles has been lost.
The Church teaches that we are not simply declared righteous because we are covered by Christ’s righteousness – he makes us righteous. As I pointed out before, imputed righteousness is the basis for Luther’s snow-covered dunghills theory. NOTHING unclean can enter heaven – not matter how much it is are covered up.
Did you raed Rom. 4? Does your translation use “imputed” or “reckoned”?
 
Wouldn’t you agree that sin is a deliberate choice?
Most of the time, yes.
While no one would choose to be a slave a man does choose to be a slave to sin. If one is addicted to pornography isn’t it his choice to be a willing slave?
Not a bit.A person who is enslaved by sin is not ABLE to choose the good. This is the fallen state of man before God’s grace is infused in us at baptism. By our fallen nature, we were “children of wrath”, without faith, in darkness and serving the desries of the flesh.

In cases of addicdtion, willpower is lost. The addict is in the power of that to which he is addicted. This is the prime definition of addiction (loss of willpower). That is why, when addicted persons engage in sin, it may not be considered mortal sin, because they do not have full consent of the will.
 
Even after grace a man can choose to be a slave to sin.No man is forced to remain in God’s grace.
Yes, and the NT is replete with warnings about this. Persons whose theology has been contaminated with the heresies of Calvin, however, have fallen into the misunderstanding that this is not possible.

A person who has been made a partaker of God’s grace can be freed again and again from sin, if one seeks restoration in the sacrament of reconciliation.
 
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.

3049 logízomai from logos (in the sense of an account or reckoning)

NASB Word Usage
consider (6), considered (2), counted (1), counting (1), credit (1), credited (9), credits (1), dwell (1), maintain (1), numbered (2), propose (1), reason (1), reckoned (2), regard (4), regarded (3), suppose (1), take into account (3), thinks (1).

Rom 4:10 How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone,

Gal 3:16 Even as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.”

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;” and he was called the friend of God.

The Greek word used to for imputation does not lend itself to be interpreteted as infused. The conclusion of infused verses imputed righteousness would be we are made inherently as righteous as God and therefore equal to Him. There would be no need for the Father to look at Christ as our peace but could now look at us in our own righteousness. This is not the case based on the words of scripture.

Certainly no unclean thing can enter heaven but when the Father looks at us in His love and sees the perfection of Jesus’ sacrifice imputed to us we are declared righteous. As in Rev 7:14 our robes (covering) are washed in the blood of the Lamb we are never seen based apart from Christ’s covering upon us …And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Christ is always referred to as our righteousness and our peace. Please demonstrate from scripture verses that conclude infusion rather than imputation?
 
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.

3049 logízomai from logos (in the sense of an account or reckoning)

NASB Word Usage
consider (6), considered (2), counted (1), counting (1), credit (1), credited (9), credits (1), dwell (1), maintain (1), numbered (2), propose (1), reason (1), reckoned (2), regard (4), regarded (3), suppose (1), take into account (3), thinks (1).

Rom 4:10 How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone,

Gal 3:16 Even as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.”

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;” and he was called the friend of God.

The Greek word used to for imputation does not lend itself to be interpreteted as infused. The conclusion of infused verses imputed righteousness would be we are made inherently as righteous as God and therefore equal to Him. There would be no need for the Father to look at Christ as our peace but could now look at us in our own righteousness. This is not the case based on the words of scripture.

Certainly no unclean thing can enter heaven but when the Father looks at us in His love and sees the perfection of Jesus’ sacrifice imputed to us we are declared righteous. As in Rev 7:14 our robes (covering) are washed in the blood of the Lamb we are never seen based apart from Christ’s covering upon us …And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Christ is always referred to as our righteousness and our peace. Please demonstrate from scripture verses that conclude infusion rather than imputation?
Take another look at Guan’s Post #139
peace, Carlan
 
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.

3049 logízomai from logos (in the sense of an account or reckoning)

NASB Word Usage
consider (6), considered (2), counted (1), counting (1), credit (1), credited (9), credits (1), dwell (1), maintain (1), numbered (2), propose (1), reason (1), reckoned (2), regard (4), regarded (3), suppose (1), take into account (3), thinks (1).

Rom 4:10 How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone,

Gal 3:16 Even as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.”

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;” and he was called the friend of God.
jericho777;7717665:
The Greek word used to for imputation does not lend itself to be interpreteted as infused.
That depends upon your point of view, I suppose. Catholics embrace Sacred Tradition, which is the Teaching of the Apostles. From the Apostolic point of view, “credited” means that the account has actually been posted with “credit” or a positive balance.

Calvin taught that this “credit” was not actual, but just “declared”. I don’t know of any banking institution that would pretend I had a credit balance for me when I did not. It seems quite ridiculous to me.

In God’s “accounting” system, the credit really exists.
The conclusion of infused verses imputed righteousness would be we are made inherently as righteous as God and therefore equal to Him. There would be no need for the Father to look at Christ as our peace but could now look at us in our own righteousness.
This is a false conclusion based upon a false premise. God’s grace does not make us inhuman. It makes us what He created us to be, which is fully human, in His image and likeness. We become PARTAKERS of His grace, and are transformed by it into His character.
This is not the case based on the words of scripture.
No, it is not. A great deal of twisting of scripture would have to be done to support your false premise and it’s false conclusion.
Certainly no unclean thing can enter heaven but when the Father looks at us in His love and sees the perfection of Jesus’ sacrifice imputed to us we are declared righteous. As in Rev 7:14 our robes (covering) are washed in the blood of the Lamb we are never seen based apart from Christ’s covering upon us …And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Christ is always referred to as our righteousness and our peace. Please demonstrate from scripture verses that conclude infusion rather than imputation?
The verses you have written here are very good examples. The robes are washed. They are MADE white (God is not just pretending they are white). He IS our righteousness. Daily we are transformed from glory into glory.

I think a study of the meaning of baptism would help you, but that may be beyond the scope of this thread. The Apostles call baptism “the washing of regeneration” because we are born again from above by water and Spirit. The Divine Nature is planted within us, so that we are able to overcome the fallen human nature. In the East, sanctification is referred to as “Theosis” (becoming like God). Not that we become God, but that our nature is transformed into His image and likeness, as He created us to be.
 
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The Greek word used to for imputation does not lend itself to be interpreteted as infused. The conclusion of infused verses imputed righteousness would be we are made inherently as righteous as God and therefore equal to Him. There would be no need for the Father to look at Christ as our peace but could now look at us in our own righteousness. This is not the case based on the words of scripture.
Not so! Are we not called to become holy as God is holy?
Peace, Carlan
 
So the person who is tempted and falls can not repent. The person upon giving in to temptation said in their heart " I reject God and serve porn as it’s slave" Are you impling that upon giving into temptation, once, the said person is trapped as a slave.
God’s grace is always available for repentance.
 
Third Day [/quote said:
Even after grace a man can choose to be a slave to sin.No man is forced to remain in God’s grace.

Indeed.

Please pardon me if I have misunderstood who said what. I had a really hard time sorting out the quotes in this post.
fb19:
So the person who is tempted and falls can not repent. The person upon giving in to temptation said in their heart " I reject God and serve porn as it’s slave" Are you impling that upon giving into temptation, once, the said person is trapped as a slave.
It is much more than an implication:

Jn 8:34-35

34 Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever.

It seems clear that Jesus is saying that sin will lose us our permanent place in the household.
?:
Most sins are deliberate.
Yes.
ThirdDay?:
Man can choose to no longer believe in God, and forfeit ] God’s grace with an unrepentant, stubborn heart. [Christians] need to be aware of the slow deceitfulness of sin [Heb 3:12-13] in which the heart and mind gradually ] becomes hardened against the love for God see Deut. 29:19. ]
Yes, but deception is one of the mitigating circumstances to mortal sin. If one is deceived, then one may not have full consent of the will.
ThirdDay?:
Anyone can be deceived to not keep God’s commandments due to being in love and enjoying the false god of lust / pornography / adultery/ incest/ cohabitation / even flirting with lustful intentions. [James 4:4 ] Man who once believes in God can choose to hate God by his unconscious ] choices to NOT want to KNOW Him. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
I agree with your point here, I think, with one exception, that being that the unconscious is not what chooses. Choice is conscious, and the unconscious often acts in contradiction to the conscious. By virtue of it’s being out of willful control, one cannot be held responsible (morally) for the actions of the unconscious (dreaming, for example). It is because of the unconscious (the secret intentions and desires of the heart) that the Apostle says he is not acquitted before God, even though He is not consciously aware of anything against himself.
 
Please demonstrate from scripture verses that conclude infusion rather than imputation?
“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that **I will pour out my Spirit **upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17-18).

“And Stephen, **full of grace **and power, did great wonders and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8).

“And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and **they were all filled with the Holy Spirit **and spoke the word of God with boldness” (Acts 4:31).

“And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit **had been poured out **even on the Gentiles” (Acts 10:45).

“When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man, **full of the Holy Spirit **and of faith” (Acts 11:23-24).

“And hope does not disappoint us, because **God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit **which has been given to us” (Romans 5:5).

“And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but **be filled with the **Spirit” (Eph. 5:18).

“He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7)

Our sins are not just covered over. They are removed… The words used are “wipe out,” “blot out,” “take away,” “remove,” and “cleanse” (Ps. 51:2[50:3]; Is. 43:25; Mic. 7:18; John 1:29; Ps. 103 [102]:12). Scripture shows justification as a rebirth, as a generation of the supernatural life in a former sinner (John 3:5; Titus 3:5), as a thorough inner renewal (Eph. 4:23), and as a sanctification (1 Cor. 6:11). The soul itself becomes beautiful and holy. It is not just a pile of dung covered over.
 
=guanophore;7717844]It seems clear that Jesus is saying that sin will lose us our permanent place in the household.
Un-confessed and Un-repented sin.
Yes, but deception is one of the mitigating circumstances to mortal sin. If one is deceived, then one may not have full consent of the will.
Sin causes a believer to gradually become tolerant of sin and then he begins to excuse himself. That deception is self inflicted.
“Exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin”
Hebrews 3:13
 
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