Once Saved, Always Saved

[elvisman]

What I said about the parable of the sower is absolutely true. You say you are a Christian yet contend that the blood of Christ has not purified you. Nevertheless, you claim that the Holy Spirit has been infused in you. That is very confusing.

“Knowing that not with corruptible things, as silver and gold, you were redeemed from your fruitless mode of life delivered to you by your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb blameless and without spot; foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last of the times for you, who through him do believe in God who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
There you go twisting my words again. I have been abundantly clear about the Catholic position. You have chosen to completely pervert what I have said.
**
The whole problem here is that you have not yet figured out the difference between REDEMPTION and SALVATION. John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the WORLD (not just a select few) that he sent his only begotten son – and whosoever believes in him shall not die but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2:4 tells us that God wills the salvation of ALL. Unfortunately, not all will be saved, even though they have been redeemed (paid for).

**
**Everybody who has ever lived was redeemed by the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. However – not all are saved. Knowing the difference between these two things is paramount to understanding God’s plan for salvation.

**
**The problem is that you simply don’t get it.
**

Having purified past tense

] your souls in obedience to the truth, to unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart earnestly, having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by means of the word of God that lives and abides.” (1 Pet. 1:18-23)
**Our souls are purified when we come to belief in Christ and are Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)****. When we sin after Baptism – and we DO sin – we are purified every time we repent and forgiven.

Your problem is that you believe forgiveness is a one-time event, like you do salvation. We must constantly confess our sins and beg forgiveness of God (James 5:16). Salvation is a process that is supported by the CONTEXT of Scripture.**

 

[jericho777]

Who’s rightousness is it? Christ Jesus’s
One can not become rightous outside of Jesus, so yes we always need His rightousness.

There we agree.

 

[jericho777]

**If you cherry-pick the writings of Paul, you will come to ****many ****different and contradicting statements. This is precisely why Peter warns that the unstable and ignorant tend to twist his writings as they do all Scripture (2 Pet. 3:16). I’m not calling *****you ***ignorant and unstable because you have learned these things from someone else.

**Protestants have created more false doctrines based on the writings of Paul than any other NT writer. In his letters, Pauls writes to many different audiences and addresses different issues with each group. His individual letters do not encompass all of Christian doctrine, but all of them collectively paint a more precise picture. **

It is** clear**** that Paul didn’t believe in a simply imputation of Christ’s righteousness on the believer. He indicates that although it may begin there, it is an infusion** of God’s grace - with our cooperation*** (Sunergos)******* (Mark 16:20, Rom. 8:28, 1 Cor. 3:9).

We need to be FILLED with the righteousness of Christ – not simply covered by it. For some, this may happen at death and others may need a final purgation (Matt. 5:25-26, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59, 1 Cor. 3:12-15**).**

I see no contradictions in Paul’s writings. In fact I find them very clear and easily understandable. He is the most prolific writer of the NT. Do you have any of Paul’s writings where he is claiming the infusion of righteousness?

So are you saying after this process there is no more need for the continuance of Christ’s righteousness because we are now truly righteousness?

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Originally Posted by Brian Culliton:
It was an exchange, my sins for His righteousness. Our human nature, which is wicked and ungodly, is not able to attain to life like you doctrine suggests.

By human nature I mean fallen human nature. Was that really not evident to you? And no, human nature cannot attain to eternal life; eternal life is the gift of God. The Gospel of John makes this clear over and over again.

Here is an excerpt of from one of the earliest Christian writings extant. Its author is not known, but the work has been attributed by some to Mathetes others to Ignatius. At any rate, it dates to the later part of the first century and the author claims to be a disciple of the apostles.

“For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! Having therefore convinced us in the former time that our nature was unable to attain to life, and having now revealed the Saviour who is able to save even those things which it was [formerly] impossible to save.” (Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, 9) – Late first or early second century A.D.

This first century Christian elucidation is precisely what you deemed “most grievous heresies of the Reformation.”

Originally Posted by Brian Culliton
If I were to die I would enter heaven because Christ has made it so. I am a citizen of heaven and I find it odd that you find that arrogant? It is what the apostles taught.

Yes, this arrogance is called the sin of presumption. While we all agree we enter heaven because Christ makes it so, we also receive the Apostolic Teaching that we are not to judge ourselves:

I did not say this to glorify myself, but rather to glorify God who saved me! I have nothing in which to boast in and of myself. But if you could attain eternal life by your works then you would have something to boast about.

I’ve heard many Catholics say they are pilgrims, and this life they live here on earth is not their true home. Where do they think this “true home” is if not in heaven? And if your citizenship is not in heaven, why do you call yourself a Christian?

They [Christians] pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. (Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, 5) – Late first or early second century A.D.

“For our commonwealth * is in the heavens, whence we look for a Saviour, also the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall transform the body of our humiliation, that it may be like the body of his glory, according to the energy of his ability, even to subdue all things to himself.” (Phi. 3:20-21)

“Therefore, then, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom all the building fitly framed together grows into a holy temple in the Lord: in whom you also are builded together for a dwelling-place of God in Spirit.” (Eph. 2:19-22)

However, we also accept the Apostolic Teaching that when we sin, we are not “in Him” and not pure. Sin is not pure. When we sin, we reject the free gift of God, and fall from grace. Gifts can be left by the side of the road.

There is no truth in what you stated here. You might not be in Christ Jesus, but I am.

“There is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made thee free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, because it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin, and on account of sin, condemned sin in the flesh, For those that are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh, but those that are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.” (Rom. 8:1-6)

“So we the many are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” (Rom. 12:5)

“Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow-prisoners, who are well known among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” (Rom. 16:7)

“…to the end that no flesh should glory in the sight of God. But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption, that as it is written: He that glories, in the Lord let him glory.” (1 Cor. 1:29-31)*

 

[jericho777]

Well, is the HS really “in” the believer, or is he only “declared” to be present, but not actually present?

Apparently there is, as you are still denying the Apostolic Teaching on the pouring out onto the believer the grace that makes him holy.

He doesn’t only speak of that. You may be making the mistake that is common among bible christians which is to attempt to extrapolate a doctrine from a handful of bible verses. If you are doing this, then you need to exclude all the other verses that suggest otherwise.

I will ask you a question also. Why does Paul write that those who are left at the rapture that they will be “changed, in the twinkling of an eye.” Why do they need to be changed, if they are already perfect?

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

There is no separation between the two, jer. Our new rigtheousness IS the righteousness of Christ. We have died, and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. It is no longer we who live, but Christ, who lives in us. You are creating a dichotomy where none exists.

No one is claiming that anyone can become righteous without Christ, or that the righteousness that He instills in us comes from ourselves.

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is in the believer. But you might have a different interpretation from what scripture actually says.

When anyone teaches something contrary to scripture I reject it. If the Bereans could check what Paul said with scripture then I can do the same for those who came after.

I do not want scripture to say anything more or less than God intends for it. I find it funny when I present verses that clearly demonstrate a certain doctrine or teaching in context and others have a far fewer or none at all that somehow I or those who have come to the same conclusion as me are mistaken.

They are receiving their eternal bodies because they did not die. You wouldn’t want to live forever in a perishable body.
1Chor 15:53-54For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

You are making my point that we are really not righteous at all. How can we truly be righteous as you claim and still need an external source? The Father sees Christ‘s righteousness alone credited to us.

 

[WTSherman]

I’ve had Baptist friends who wonder if I’m “saved” or not.

Catholics don’t get “saved”, we get confirmed

 

[pismopal]

For those who think that “belief” makes reality…OSAS is a glittering trinket that has the flimsiest of bible support. Taken in total…OSAS has no real support. In my own opinion and opinion only…the OSAS position was adopted in order to attract members…dues payers.

 

[jericho777]

Once Saved, Always Saved

This is a stupid thread :
If Judas an “Apostle” could loose His Salvation

So can YOU!!

The bible says Judas was a devil from the begining. John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

 

[elvisman]

I see no contradictions in Paul’s writings. In fact I find them very clear and easily understandable. He is the most prolific writer of the NT. Do you have any of Paul’s writings where he is claiming the infusion of righteousness?

So are you saying after this process there is no more need for the continuance of Christ’s righteousness because we are now truly righteousness?

First of all – even the Scriptures say that some of Paul’s writings are not easy to understand (2 Pet. 3:16). For you to say that they are all easy to understand is an arrogant statement, given the fact that Peter - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - says differently. This makes me believe all the more that you are precisely whom Pater was talking about in (2 Pet. 3:16).**

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Secondly, the process is a LIFElong one. We are made perfect before or upon entering heaven. As I have pointed out – ad nauseam – nothing unclean can enter heaven, so we MUST be perfect when we enter.

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Lastly – Rom. 5:19, Paul speaks of how just as Adam’s sin made us sinners, Christ obedience MADE us righteous – it didn’t simply DECLARE us righteous:
“For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.”

---

His use of “will be made” also supports the Catholic position of salvation being a lifelong process.

 

[elvisman]

The bible says Judas was a devil from the begining. John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Wrong.
That verse simply says that Judas was a devil. It doesn’t say that he was a devil “from the beginning”.

Remember that Judas had a free will - just like everybody else. Judas was with the others who went out in Matt. 10:8 curing the sick, raising the dead, cleansing lepers, driving out demons.
No - Judas changed somewhere along the way.

 

[guanophore]

Once Saved, Always Saved

This is a stupid thread :
If Judas an “Apostle” could loose His Salvation

So can YOU!!

This is not very charitable, jdarc. There are a lot of people sincerely confused on this topic.

Besides, an excellent case can be made that Judas was NEVER SAVED! Jesus said he was a devil, and everyone knows, a devil cannot be saved.

 

[guanophore]

I see no contradictions in Paul’s writings. In fact I find them very clear and easily understandable. He is the most prolific writer of the NT. Do you have any of Paul’s writings where he is claiming the infusion of righteousness?

There was a new bank here in town that was offering credits to join. So I went over there and opened an account, and sure enough, just as promised, as soon as I had my first automatic deposit, $ 25 was imputed (credited) to my account. This was not just a declaration that I was in the black. It was an actual infusion of cash.

What you are denying is that the credit is “real”. For some reason you think that God is only doctoring the books, so when He says our faith is credited as righteousness, there is still an empty account.

Eph 3:17-19
18 I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Maybe you can explain to us poor, lost Catholics how it is possible to be filled with all the fullness of God without a divine infusion?

So are you saying after this process there is no more need for the continuance of Christ’s righteousness because we are now truly righteousness?

I just read two of Elvis’ posts above this one that make it quite clear that this is not the case. I hope you will go back and read them.

If you persist this way, I will have to conclude you are just a troll. The whole thread is about how it is possible to fail to continue in Christ’s righteousness, and thus fail to be united with our heavenly inheritance.

You don’t seem to understand, or perhaps don’t want to accept that we are transformed by His grace. That,w hen we are fully sanctified, it is no longer we who live, but Christ, who lives in us. If you understood this concept, you would not ask questions like the one above, which sets up a false dichotomy between Christ’s righteousness and what is created in us by it.

 

[jericho777]

First of all – even the Scriptures say that some of Paul’s writings are not easy to understand (2 Pet. 3:16). For you to say that they are all easy to understand is an arrogant statement, given the fact that Peter - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - says differently*. This makes me believe all the more that you are precisely whom Pater was talking about in (2 Pet. 3:16).*

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Secondly, the process is a LIFElong one. We are made perfect before or upon entering heaven. As I have pointed out – ad nauseam – nothing unclean can enter heaven, so we MUST be perfect when we enter.

---

Lastly – Rom. 5:19, Paul speaks of how just as Adam’s sin made us sinners, Christ obedience MADE us righteous – it didn’t simply DECLARE us righteous:
“For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.”

---

His use of “will be made” also supports the Catholic position of salvation being a lifelong process.

Wow I’m am truly amazed you tell me how hard it is to understand Paul’s writings and call me arrogant because I say I understand what he is saying. Then you go on to tell me what Paul is saying in Romans 5:19. And you’re not arrogant?

 

[jericho777]

This is not very charitable, jdarc. There are a lot of people sincerely confused on this topic.

Besides, an excellent case can be made that Judas was NEVER SAVED! Jesus said he was a devil, and everyone knows, a devil cannot be saved.

Don’t let elvis see this post! Do you think he will be nicer to you than he was me?

 

[guanophore]

By human nature I mean fallen human nature. Was that really not evident to you?

No. Do you think there is more than one kind of human nature?

And no, human nature cannot attain to eternal life; eternal life is the gift of God. The Gospel of John makes this clear over and over again.

Human nature can, and does, attain eternal life. This is done by grace, through faith, lest any man should boast.

This first century Christian elucidation is precisely what you deemed “most grievous heresies of the Reformation.”

No, Brian. You are confused. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote. Human nature was never created with sin, and Jesus came to save us from sin, both now, and eternally. Human nature is not what you claim. Your claims are heresies from the Reformation.

But if you could attain eternal life by your works then you would have something to boast about.[/qutoe]

Are we not all in agreement that this does not happen? If you doubt the Catholic position on this, then I suggest that you read the Joint Declaration on Justification.
Brian Culliton;7732253:

(Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, 5) – Late first or early second century A.D.

Brian, this is a Catholic docuement, written by a Catholic. So far, all the quotes you have taken from it represent Catholic Teaching. I am not sure why that is so hard for you to accept. How would your life change if you had to admit that the Catholic Church has it right?

We also accept the Apostolic Teaching that when we sin, we are not “in Him” and not pure. Sin is not pure. When we sin, we reject the free gift of God, and fall from grace. Gifts can be left by the side of the road.

There is no truth in what you stated here.  You might not be in Christ Jesus, but I am.

Brian, the nature of sin has not changed since the death of Christ. Sin separated humans from Him prior to that, and it still does now.

 INDENT]“There is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

That is just it, Brian. When a person sins, they separate themselves from Christ.They are no longer walking in the obedience of faith. They must be reconciled to God, as they have crucified the son of God afresh.

 “So we the many are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” (Rom. 12:5)

This is why we call you separated brethren.

you posted a lot of scriptures. Not sure what your point is. Jesus said that we can be cut off.

 

[fbl9]

By human nature I mean fallen human nature. Was that really not evident to you? And no, human nature cannot attain to eternal life; eternal life is the gift of God. The Gospel of John makes this clear over and over again.

 

[guanophore]

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is in the believer. But you might have a different interpretation from what scripture actually says.

When anyone teaches something contrary to scripture I reject it. If the Bereans could check what Paul said with scripture then I can do the same for those who came after.

The difference between you and the Bereans, Jer is that the Bereans accepted the Apostolic instruction with joy.

Acts 17:11
11 These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly

You don’t welcome apostolic teaching. Instead you reject it off the top (whatever the successors of the Apostles are teaching in the Catholic Church must be wrong) and you search your scriptures without the Apostolic message, coming to alternative conclusions. Your conclusions are a significant departure from what the authors believed and taught.

I do not want scripture to say anything more or less than God intends for it.

I believe you. I think you are very sincere. Misguided, but sincere.

I find it funny when I present verses that clearly demonstrate a certain doctrine or teaching in context and others have a far fewer or none at all that somehow I or those who have come to the same conclusion as me are mistaken.

That is because doctrine is not to be extracted from a few verses of Scripture, jericho. That is not how Jesus set things up. He chose apostles, taught them everything, then put them in charge of His Church. They were to teach the gospel to faithful men, who were able to instruct others also. Doctrine is handed down from the Source, not extracted.

They are receiving their eternal bodies because they did not die. You wouldn’t want to live forever in a perishable body.

Are you saying that people no longer need transformation? All that is left that needs to be changed is the physical body? You don’t think there is anything perishable in the human soul?

You are making my point that we are really not righteous at all. How can we truly be righteous as you claim and still need an external source? The Father sees Christ‘s righteousness alone credited to us.

Ok, jer. As you wish.

We don’t REALLY become the righeousness of God in Christ, as Scipture says. We are just declared to be such, but it is really just a declaration of somthing that does not exist. :hypno:

 

[elvisman]

Wow I’m am truly amazed you tell me how hard it is to understand Paul’s writings and call me arrogant because I say I understand what he is saying. Then you go on to tell me what Paul is saying in Romans 5:19. And you’re not arrogant?

No - because I am merely parroting the teachings of the Christ’s Church, whose total authority on earth was granted by Christ himself. The same Church which Paul called the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23), “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15) and which Jesus equates his very self with (Acts 9:4-5).**

You’re merely speaking on your own behalf.

 

[elvisman]

Don’t let elvis see this post! Do you think he will be nicer to you than he was me?

I’m not being uncharitable, Jericho - just pointing out arrogance when I see it.

I also didn’t say that Judas wasn’t a devil - I said he Scripture does not day he started out that way. Guan is not saying that Judas was born a devil either.

 

[guanophore]

**I’m not **being uncharitable, Jericho - just pointing out arrogance when I see it.

I also didn’t say that Judas wasn’t a devil - I said he Scripture does not day he started out that way. Guan is not saying that Judas was born a devil either.

True, but I always thought Judas was the one about which Christ said it would be better if he had never been born:

Matt 26:23-25
23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me, will betray me. 24 The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Is it I, Master?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

It makes Judas sound like one of the “vessels of wrath” that are written about. Just because he was sent on missionary journeys and did healings does not mean he was ever saved, either. Jesus may have been speaking of him when He said “I never knew you”.