Once Saved, Always Saved

[elvisman]

Their first state was separation from God with the chance to hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. Their last state is separation from God having already forsaken the salvation He offers. Christ is not sacrificed again for them and the father will not kill the fatted calf and celebrate with a feast a second time, or third, or fourth, and so on.

Not only is tis a complete perversion of the belief in the forgiveness of God - it is utter arrogance to believe that you do not in after coming to faith in Christ.

What happened to the notion that all of our sinse (past, present and future) are “covered” by the finished work of Christ"? Calvinists talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue.

Their last state becomes worse than their first because they have had a true, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of christ - but it DOESN’T mean that they can no longer repent and be forgiven.

 

[menofstjoseph]

The prodigal son represents all God’s children who are gone astray that repent and return to Him.
​

Would you admit he was in the father’s household before he left the first time (had a previously close and personal relationship with the Father)?
**
*So, the here are the stages I see of the Prodigal Son:

1. The Son was with the Father. He was Saved.
2. Then he left and lead a sinful life. He turned his back on the Father.
3. The son humbly repented, then returned, and the Father gladly accepted him back. He was Saved again!!! * **

**
How can someone who is with the Father leave him??? I thought that was impossible??? Can a Prodigal Son choose to leave the Father???**

What if after returning the prodigal son were to decide to leave to start boozing it up again and chasing women again? Or is the that son now incapable of sinning anymore?

**
I think the Father would accept him every time as long as he was repentant. **

What kind of soil am I?? At one time I would say pretty thorny. But I have a lot of those weeds and brambles ripped out, but a I CONTINUE TO GROW in my faith, I recognize those weeds and thorns more easily, so I Weed Eat them out quicker.

Through God’s grace he has freely given me a lawn mower, fertilizer and a really good Weed Eater to help me tend the garden he gave me. He has freely given everything I have!!! It all comes from Him. What awesome gifts he has given me to tend my soil!!!

But its still up to me to do the actual tending. He is not going to do it for me. I have the free will to make that choice.

Today, I would I am mostly fertile ground. (“Mostly” because I have been gardening for a long time and know there are a lot of aggressive weed and thorn species out there and I have to be “ever vigilant”)

But its up to me to tend the garden. I (my self, me) can CHOOSE to let the garden come thorny and weed filled again. He has freely given me the gifts needed to keep it fruitful, but I have to work the garden with “fear and trembling”

**On THIS EARTH you can’t plant a garden and just walk away from it. It has to be maintained daily. (Plant a garden this spring and just leave it alone. Come back six months later and tell me what you find.)

Our gardens will be perfected in Heaven. There are no weeds or thorns there. Man! I sure wish there was case here. How great it would be to never worry about weeds any more, but how foolish it is to not be aware of their threat!!! The Enemy is real and constantly on the prowl.

If I didn’t have to constantly tend the garden, and just set it on “auto-gardener” would make being a follower of Christ a whole lot easier! But being a good gardener take hard work!!**​

 

[Carlan]

What kind of soil am I?? At one time I would say pretty thorny. But I have a lot of those weeds and brambles ripped out, but a I CONTINUE TO GROW in my faith, I recognize those weeds and thorns more easily, so I Weed Eat them out quicker.

Through God’s grace he has freely given me a lawn mower, fertilizer and a really good Weed Eater to help me tend the garden he gave me. He has freely given everything I have!!! It all comes from Him. What awesome gifts he has given me to tend my soil!!!

But its still up to me to do the actual tending. He is not going to do it for me. I have the free will to make that choice.

Today, I would I am mostly fertile ground. (“Mostly” because I have been gardening for a long time and know there are a lot of aggressive weed and thorn species out there and I have to be “ever vigilant”)

But its up to me to tend the garden. I (my self, me) can CHOOSE to let the garden come thorny and weed filled again. He has freely given me the gifts needed to keep it fruitful, but I have to work the garden with “fear and trembling”

**On THIS EARTH you can’t plant a garden and just walk away from it. It has to be maintained daily. (Plant a garden this spring and just leave it alone. Come back six months later and tell me what you find.)

Our gardens will be perfected in Heaven. There are no weeds or thorns there. Man! I sure wish there was case here. How great it would be to never worry about weeds any more, but how foolish it is to not be aware of their threat!!! The Enemy is real and constantly on the prowl.

If I didn’t have to constantly tend the garden, and just set it on “auto-gardener” would make being a follower of Christ a whole lot easier! But being a good gardener take hard work!!**

Great analogy MenofstJoseph, sad that our posts fall on so many closed ears .They come visiting not to learn the truth we teach but to sow division by refuting many of the truths of scripture by quoting out of context and leaning on their own understanding.
Peace. Carlan

 

[menofstjoseph]

Great analogy MenofstJoseph, sad that our posts fall on so many closed ears .They come visiting not to learn the truth we teach but to sow division by refuting many of the truths of scripture by quoting out of context and leaning on their own understanding.
Peace. Carlan

Thanks Carlan.

Hard hearts are slow to soften. Have you ever noticed that most walls are made of wood, plaster, or steel and not wax or butter?

With God’s grace, even those hearts confirmed to divide might one day melt.

The Truth is hard to appreciate when some folks twist it so badly it looks like a zombie pretzel.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Would you admit he was in the father’s household before he left the first time (had a previously close and personal relationship with the Father)?

Not in the way you are presenting it. The perspective is that the prodigal son represents ALL people, but particularly the Jews who have gone their own way, not people who are Christians. When the son returns to the father that is when he becomes a Christian. He is welcomed and forgiven because of his believe in the one true sacrifice of Christ. He is “healed by His stripes.” The older brother represents the Jewish leaders who considered themselves righteous and scoffed at the “sinners” that sought Jesus’ forgiveness.

Another way to put this is that the prodigal son represents the lost sheep of Israel. They were the people of God residing in God’s house, but as Isaiah said, “they had all gone astray, each to his own way.” And remember, the lost sheep were not Gentiles; Jesus referred to Gentile believers as “His other sheep that must be brought in.”

I think the Father would accept him every time as long as he was repentant.

A new believer will commit more sin more often than a mature believer. The reason being is that the mature believer has grown in faith and knowledge through a process called sanctification. The longer one follows Christ the more they learn, and the more they learn the more their faith increases, and the more their faith increases the more resistant to sin they become. All this leads to bearing fruit and more of it.

No believer is perfect; no believer is immune to committing sin. But the sins of the believer are not on the level of turning their back on God and walking away. The sins of the believer are described by Paul in Romans 7. A young (in the faith) believer could get caught up in the things you described temporarily. If he or she feels remorse and repents then their heart is right with God. It is a war between flesh and spirit that rages particularly in newer believers. Experiencing the scars of such a war is not a denial of God, but rather a weakness of the flesh. It’s when a believer is once again caught up in that sinful life and embraces it that they deny God and are lost. That is what the Scripture meant by “overcome.” But this is a matter of the heart and we are not capable of knowing the hearts of others.

What kind of soil am I?? At one time I would say pretty thorny. But I have a lot of those weeds and brambles ripped out, but a I CONTINUE TO GROW in my faith, I recognize those weeds and thorns more easily, so I Weed Eat them out quicker.

Through God’s grace he has freely given me a lawn mower, fertilizer and a really good Weed Eater to help me tend the garden he gave me. He has freely given everything I have!!! It all comes from Him. What awesome gifts he has given me to tend my soil!!!

But its still up to me to do the actual tending. He is not going to do it for me. I have the free will to make that choice.

Today, I would I am mostly fertile ground. (“Mostly” because I have been gardening for a long time and know there are a lot of aggressive weed and thorn species out there and I have to be “ever vigilant”)

But its up to me to tend the garden. I (my self, me) can CHOOSE to let the garden come thorny and weed filled again. He has freely given me the gifts needed to keep it fruitful, but I have to work the garden with “fear and trembling.”

Thank you for answering.

I think you are overcomplicating the parable. There is no scenario in the parable where plants sprout up among the weeds and start pulling them up. Notice that in the parable the soil represents the hearts of those who receive the word of God. The hearts of all people who receive the word are one of the following: stony, sandy, thorny, or cultivated.

The thorny ground is along the cultivated field and is left wild. The seeds that fall into that area are helpless against the weeds. The farmer does not mow them, or in any way labor in those areas for the sake of the plants that sprouted there. Those plants are rooted, choked by weeds, and will never bear fruit. The reason that heart will never bear fruit is because it is **given over **to the cares of the world.

An Old Testament type for one with this type of heart can be found in Lot’s wife. Lot’s wife was concerned about the welfare of what she was leaving behind rather than trusting the word of the Lord which was leading her to safety.

The way you described yourself in relation to the parable is as one who received the word, but at the time cared more for the world than for God. Now you describe yourself as one who is rooted in the weeds but is attempting to fight them off by your own power. If you received the word a long time ago and are still fighting off weeds, you must realize that it is a loosing battle. If you are truly rooted among the weeds you will never bear fruit. And if you never bear fruit how will you ever be profitable to God? Is that how you intended to protray yourself?

The heart that is represented by the good soil is that which receives the word, nourishes it, grows and bears fruit. These plants, like the others, are in the world, but unlike the others they are not of the world. These plants are profitable to God because they bear fruit which produce seeds, which grows new plants that bear fruit, which produce more seeds and so on. These plants feed on Christ and are watered by His word. Their fruit is seen by the world and many come to Christ because of it.

Based on the discussion thus far in this thread, no Catholic can claim that their heart is represented by the good soil. And, therefore, no Catholic can claim to nourish the word, grow thereby and bear spiritual fruit. Are you all among the weeds, or are there any Catholics who would consider their self to be represented by the good soil?

 

[fbl9]

snip…

A new believer will commit more sin more often than a mature believer. The reason being is that the mature believer has grown in faith and knowledge through a process called sanctification. The longer one follows Christ the more they learn, and the more they learn the more their faith increases, and the more their faith increases the more resistant to sin they become. All this leads to bearing fruit and more of it.

 

[OurLady01]

**
I think the Father would accept him every time as long as he was repentant.**

What kind of soil am I?? At one time I would say pretty thorny. But I have a lot of those weeds and brambles ripped out, but a I CONTINUE TO GROW in my faith, I recognize those weeds and thorns more easily, so I Weed Eat them out quicker.

Through God’s grace he has freely given me a lawn mower, fertilizer and a really good Weed Eater to help me tend the garden he gave me. He has freely given everything I have!!! It all comes from Him. What awesome gifts he has given me to tend my soil!!!

But its still up to me to do the actual tending. He is not going to do it for me. I have the free will to make that choice.

Today, I would I am mostly fertile ground. (“Mostly” because I have been gardening for a long time and know there are a lot of aggressive weed and thorn species out there and I have to be “ever vigilant”)

But its up to me to tend the garden. I (my self, me) can CHOOSE to let the garden come thorny and weed filled again. He has freely given me the gifts needed to keep it fruitful, but I have to work the garden with “fear and trembling”

**On THIS EARTH you can’t plant a garden and just walk away from it. It has to be maintained daily. (Plant a garden this spring and just leave it alone. Come back six months later and tell me what you find.)

Our gardens will be perfected in Heaven. There are no weeds or thorns there. Man! I sure wish there was case here. How great it would be to never worry about weeds any more, but how foolish it is to not be aware of their threat!!! The Enemy is real and constantly on the prowl.

If I didn’t have to constantly tend the garden, and just set it on “auto-gardener” would make being a follower of Christ a whole lot easier! But being a good gardener take hard work!!**

What a beautiful reflection of Christ’s eternal grace operating within you - He who strengthens your will to seek Him and aim to keep His commandments through an abiding sincere faith-obedience, all a sovereign grace from God in how He pursues after you, until you thirst for His righteousness!

Rev 21:6-7;22:17 to the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son… And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price. God gives us victory over death through Christ. 1 Cor 15:57. **In Him, we are more than conquerors . **Rom 8:37.

It’s a marvelous Christo-centric testimony of eternal comfort and hope through His sovereign grace of strength…* 2 Thess2:16 *… Almighty God has given you comfort and hope as you choose to stand firm in a sincere faith, even though evil pressures you from all sides. 2Thessalonians3:23 …May we continue to thank God for the inexpressible gift of His Son our Lord Jesus Christ…

 

[menofstjoseph]

What a beautiful reflection of Christ’s eternal grace operating within you - He who strengthens your will to seek Him and aim to keep His commandments through an abiding sincere faith-obedience, all a sovereign grace from God in how He pursues after you, until you thirst for His righteousness!

Rev 21:6-7;22:17 to the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son… And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price. God gives us victory over death through Christ. 1 Cor 15:57. **In Him, we are more than conquerors . **Rom 8:37.

It’s a marvelous Christo-centric testimony of eternal comfort and hope through His sovereign grace of strength…* 2 Thess2:16 *… Almighty God has given you comfort and hope as you choose to stand firm in a sincere faith, even though evil pressures you
from all sides. 2Thessalonians3:23 …May we continue to thank God for the inexpressible gift of His Son our Lord Jesus Christ…

Our Lady,
Thank you for the kind and inspiring words. To be honest, I was quite angry at the judgmental words Brian said in the last paragraph of his last post. I signed back with regret to respond to such closed minded bigotry.

But your words gave me some peace, and made me realize that anger is just what the Enemy wants, and he will use anyone he wants to play his game; especially those already predisposed to hate and judge others. I refuse to play that game.

 

[OurLady01]

Hi Brian I’ve been reading your posts quite carefully. It was not my intentions to misrepresent you as I posted; however as you know misunderstandings are common. Feel free to correct me when there’s a misunderstanding on my perspective on your ‘once saved always saved’ interpretation on sacred scriptures. May God bless you in His peace.

 

[guanophore]

If it is nothing but a mere declaration of righteousness, as opposed to a real righteousness, then how can you say one truly becomes holy? Does there not have to be real change? Your imputed righteousness position seems rather weak and unsupportable to me.

Peace,
Robert

It is unsupportable and weak, but it is important that we do not allow this word to be co-opted and redefined by the Reformers as it has been. Paul uses “logizomai” (imputed/credited/ reckoned/accounted toward) in the letter to the Romans.

The Reformers did not believe this was an actual “credit deposited” as the Apostles taught. When God “imputes” (credits) us there is an actual deposit made. We are put into right relationship with God, which does not include any snow covered dunghill. Right relationship with God means that we are not separated from Him by sins.

The Reformers also taught that the basic nature of sin somehow changed after the cross- that sin no longer had the power to separate people from God, or that people could sin and still be in right relationship with Him.

 

[guanophore]

True - Jesus did say that it was better that he had never been born - because of what he was about to do.
It’s not that he was created for hell. If God wills the salvation of all (1 Tim. 2:4) - he doesn’t create anybody for hell. That would make him a monster and he cannot be the author of evil.

Human beings are destined for hell at birth, because we are born into a state of separation from God. It is not “evil” of God to allow the consequences of our choices to be carried out (permit people to go to hell).

Rom 9:21-22
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction…

Clearly some are vessels of wrath who were created for destruction.

 

[guanophore]

 I think you say one thing but practice another.  You believe that if you commit a “mortal” sin you fall from grace.  As a Catholic, what do you have to DO to return to a state of grace?

Repent and believe. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive them.

I present the arguments in my own words and you disagree and call them heresy; I present the same positions from the early church and you fully agree and call them Catholic. That is the mark of an idealog.

It is all about perspective, Brian. If you accept the words as written in the NT and the early documents as written by, for, and about Catholics, then you will understand them from the point of view of the Apostles’ faith.

Those who redefined the terms, and abandonded the apostolic teachings fell into heresy.

References please?

You want me to give you a reference to confirm that someone can give you a gift, and you have the power to walk away from it? If common sense does not tell you that, I don’t believe there is any reference I could provide that would helpyou.

1 John 2:4-6
4 If someone says that he knows him, but does not obey his commands, such a person is a liar and there is no truth in him. 5 But whoever obeys his word is the one whose love for God has really been made perfect. This is how we can be sure that we are in union with God: 6 whoever says that he remains in union with God should live just as Jesus Christ did.

John 15:5-8

5 "I am the vine, and you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit; for you can do nothing without me. 6 Whoever does not remain in me is thrown out like a branch and dries up; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, where they are burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, then you will ask for anything you wish, and you shall have it.

Bad fruit does not come from a good vine. Bad fruit means that a person is not connected to the vine.

Excuse me? They must be reconciled to God, as they have crucified the son of God afresh??? Did the Catholic Church rewrite the Scriptures?

No rewrite, Brian, just the originals.

“For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those that were once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the coming age, and have fallen away, crucifying to themselves the Son of God anew, and putting him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)

You are misunderstanding the scriptures, Brian. The only unforgiveable sin is final impenitence. Even an apostate, as referenced in this passage of Hebrews, can be reconciled to God before death.

How much clearer could this be? Your doctrine, assuming you are articulating it correctly, is obviously in error.

Apparently it could be clearer to you, since you don’t seem to understand what it says. I recommend that you read the chapters surrounding this passage. Perhaps the context will clarify it for you. If a person becomes a Christian, then turns their back on Christ (he is referring to falling back into Judaism and the Law) there is no other way to be saved. Jesus is the only road to heaven, and there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. Those who willfully reject Him have no alternative (such as returning to Judaism),

 

[guanophore]

Carlan, I don’t think you understand what is being stated in Hebrews 6. The apostle is referring to spiritual sin, not the sin of giving in to carnal temptations. When Christians, who are in relationship with Christ, sin, it is as Paul described in Romans 7. What is being stated in Hebrews 6 is entirely different. This is referring to sin against the Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness.

Brian, there is no separation between “spiritual sin” and “carnal sin”. When one gives in to carnal temptations, it is a reflection of their lack of connection to the Vine.

I do agree with you though about the sin against the HS for which there is no forgiveness. This was taught by the Apostles to be the sin of final impenitence. If a person resists the drawing of the HS unto death, refusing to repent and ask for mercy.

Matt 3:9-11
10 The ax is ready to cut down the trees at the roots; every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire.

Matt 7:16-20
17 A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. 20 So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do.

What does it mean to you, Brian, to be “cut down, and thrown into the fire”?

Sins are bad fruit. that means “spiritual”, and “carnal”. Contrary to what Calvin taught, the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separates people from God.

I stated earlier in this discussion that I knew of only one person that has committed this sin and that person was Judas.

You did state this, but you can’t really know that. For all we know, he repented while he was hanging from the branch! We are not in any position to judge the souls of others.

 I am not saying there haven’t been others, but I wouldn’t know.

I am glad you can realize this.

It is very Cathlolic of you to do so.

What is relevant about that is that Judas was not excluded from this knowledge, nor was he a non-believer. He understood who Jesus is and yet he turned against Him with deliberate malevolence. That is why Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born.

It is one theory. I have heard others. Frankly, I am not sure it is a good use of our time to speculate on it.

Now take the example of Peter. When Jesus was arrested Peter followed behind. When he was confronted about being one of Jesus disciples he denied it – three times. Peter did this out of the weakness of his flesh. Jesus did not say of Peter, “it would have been better if he had never been born.”

Clearly, Peter repented of this sin, and was reconciled to God.

Peter did not fall from grace as Judas did. Peter did not denounce Jesus from the heart with deliberate intent as Judas did. And Judas is the example of the kind of person that Hebrews 6 is referring to. It is impossible for such a person to be renewed again unto repentance.

You are speculating, Brian. You have no evidence that Judas was ever in a state of Grace with God.

I do agree, though, when a person rejects Christ with a deliberate and malevolent heart, there is not other salvation available.

God is indeed merciful Carlan, and we who love Him have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

In fact, Brian, those who don’t love Him also have an advocate with the Father (they just don’t take advantage of it). While we were yet sinners, He died for us and became our advocate. He ever lives to make intercession for us before the throne of God.

Question: How do you rectify the conflict between what Scripture states is impossible with what you say is not impossible?

There is not conflict for us, Brian. Since we read the Scriptures in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught (Sacred Tradition) we see them as seamless.

You are reading the Scriptures from a faith tradition that has been separated from the Apostolic faith for 500+ years. Every generation it drifts further and further. This is why there seems to you to be a conflict.

 

[guanophore]

Matthew tells us that Judas repented in himself (stung with remorse) and confessed to betraying innocent blood. And none of the accounts tell us that Peter prayed; they say only that he wept bitterly.

Feeling remorse is one thing. Throwing oneself on the mercy of God is another. Plenty of people fall into despair and yet still do not call upon the Lord to be saved. It is hubris that prevents this - people think they are not worthy of it.

As far as Peter, it would be foolish to think that Peter was unrepentant of his sin of denial. What do you think weeping bitterly is about? Do you think he was celebrating? Honestly. One has to use some common sense in reading scripture.

It is also verifiably false that Judas chose despair and thus could have repented.  The Scripture states that prior to Judas’ remorse and confession he “saw that he was condemned.”

Whatever you add to this to form your opinion is not from apostolic sources.

I am glad you can recognize that it is possible to add ideas to scripture that are not from Apostolic Sources. Now, if you can just make that leap, and recognize that you are the one doing it!

When Judas betrayed Jesus he put himself in full agreement with all the things of which the Pharisees where accusing Jesus. This man who had tasted the goodness of the Lord and knew explicitly that Jesus was the Son of God and savior of mankind, deliberately aligned himself with those that called our Lord a blasphemer, liar, rebel, and sinner. It was not “simply a betrayal,” it was deliberate malicious insurrection of the highest order.

You seem to be suggesting that the sin of Judas is somehow “worse” than the sins we commit every day.

You downplay this to a level such that you accuse all believers who struggle with sin on a daily basis of essentially being like Judas. Fortunately you are wrong and it is not the case. See Romans 7.

I agree, not all believers who struggle with sin are essentially being like Judas. However, it is also true that choosing to sin is a betrayal of Christ, and puts us “out” of His will, His commandments, His expectation of us that we practice the obedience of faith. Sin separates us from God.

 

[guanophore]

Quote: Originally Posted by guanophore
We also accept the Apostolic Teaching that when we sin, we are not “in Him” and not pure. Sin is not pure. When we sin, we reject the free gift of God, and fall from grace. Gifts can be left by the side of the road.

**Quote: Originally Posted by Brian Culliton

References please?**​

OK Brian. References: Fall from Grace Catholic answer by OurLady1 thank you Mike Forrester].

When we choose serious sin - i.e., unfaithfulness to God by forsaking Him, to remain in love with false gods: obeying wickedness, to follow our own stubborn evil will: i.e., Adultery, lust, gluttony, fornication, etc] which leads to spiritual death, we choose to harden our hearts by serious sin. We are not under God’s grace.] We must admit to God we have sinned, and continually avoid + repent ] from serious sins, in order to believe in Him continually, and receive His mercy and forgiveness and remain in His grace. ]

When choosing serious sin that leads to death: We choose to not have the right-heart *attitude *response to God. We are not keeping His commandments. We are not remaining in ] the Vine. We refuse to love Him with all our heart, with all our soul, all our mind and all our strength. *If you love me, you will obey Me! *] And we are not loving our neighbor as ourselves. We are not seeking first the Kingdom of God. We are not believing in ] Him b/c we choose to be faithless. We are not allowing access to His grace] His unmerited favor ] to conform us to His righteousness . By His grace, we are forfeiting by our choice to not be upright in heart.

Almighty God warns us : Once faithful to Christ, you can choose to be faithless to God: ‘’ Do not grieve the Holy Spirit. ''

Ephesians 4: 30 St. Paul writes to the saints who are faithful IN Christ Jesus] – Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

**IF **it were NOT possible for the faithful to grieve God ] with a stubborn / hardened heart, then why is there a stern warning ] in sacred scripture To God’s holy people - the faithful in Christ Jesus ? :

Ephesians 5:1 says **We should live to not grieve the Holy Spirit **by

**1. ** being imitators of God.

**2. ** to walk in love Eph. 5:2

3. to walk as children of light light is found in all that is good and true ] Eph. 5:8-9

4. literal translation; and by PROVING ] what is pleasing to God.
…and find out what pleases the Lord. Eph. 5:10

Each time we sin we and we fall short of God’s glory, God is not overcome by grief. But there is a stubborn-hardened condition of man’s heart which causes extreme pain, extreme distress, extreme grief to God, called in the Greek lupeo ] which is an extremely disheartening event .

Here’s one example:

Mark 3:4-6

** 4 **Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

** 5** He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their hardened hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Here’s another example:

Ephesians 4:17-19

** 17** So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

Psalm 94:15 -16 states:

**15 **For the LORD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance.

At first glance, it may appear that God will never forsake, reject, abandon God’s people. But in closer examination in Psalm 94:16 the conditional promise of receiving His unmerited favor of righteousness is associated with an upright heart :

**16 **Judgment will again be founded on righteousness, and all the upright in heart will follow it.

That is, we must have the right-heart attitude response to God to choose to continually seek Him in continual faith [ginosko ?] , obey Him, love Him in order [to receive His grace ~ Christ’s unmerited favor of His Righteousness. ]

How long will the unfaithful be, before He throws you out hopefully not you the reader! ] where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth ? We must guard our faith, so we can be strengthened by His grace to be trustworthy to do all He asks from us. We must choose to continue to abide in Christ, continue and persevere by His faith, to run the race to win the prize of eternal salvation in heaven: where there is '‘security in eternity.’'

Great job!

 

[guanophore]

The only claim I made about eternal security is that I am saved. Catholics say I can’t know that.

Well, yes and no. Catholics also say we are saved by baptism. The difference is that Catholics embrace the Apostolic point of view about salvation, which is that there are some aspects that are completed (baptism), some that we are working out now, and some that are not consummated until we leave this life.

  I said that I am held to Christ by love and will never leave Him.  Catholics say I can’t know that and I might choose to walk away in the future.

Yes. It is a common misunderstanding among our separated brethren to confuse love and salvation. God loves all of us, even those that are not in Him. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He loves every soul He creates, yet He does not save them all. He loves His creation so much that he will allow a soul to walk through the gates of Hell, if they so choose. The fact that He loves us does not equate to saving us.

Let’s pretend we are not discussing salvation, instead we are discussing marriage and relationships.  If I were to tell you in that context that I love my wife with all my heart, and that I would never leave her, what would you say?  Would you tell me that I am foolish for believing such a thing?  Or would you tell me that I have real commitment?

Neither, but I would say that love does sometimes separate from the one loved. If she chose to have sex with other men, then it would be improper for you to have marital relations with her while she was doing so. It would be prudent to separate from her if she chooses such a lifestyle. That does not mean that you stopped loving her.

Do I grieve my wife from time to time?  Yes.  Is our marriage over every time that happens?  No.

Cetrtainly the potential exists when you do so. And for some people, yes, the marriage is ruined by infidelity.

Do I turn my back on her every time I do something that upsets her?  No.

It sure may seem to her like you do. Especially if it is the same thing over and over.

d I love her and she loves me and we have been married a long time. And as long as we love on another nothing can separate us.

Hogwash, Brian. Love is not sufficient to keep a marriage together.

I don’t think you would find it foolish of me to say I love my wife and would never leave her, but when I say the same thing about my relationship with Christ you think I am foolish. Are you completely unaware that Christ’s church is His bride and marriage is a model of that relationship?

It seems like you have a very narrow experience of intimate relationships. If you don’t think a marriage can be ruined by sins…well.

Imagine that my wife had a set of rules and I could only stay married to her so long as I didn’t break any of those rules. But if I did break one of her rules, I could go through a process by which I could have my marriage restored that would require both her mercy and some sort of penance. That is not a relationship, yet your doctrine of salvation paints that very picture.

No, Brian. You are suffering from a warped perception of Catholicism. It is possible that you got it at a young age, and for reasons of resentment, have held onto it until now. Perhaps you can consider forgiving those who misled you about the faith, accept that what you were given to believe is wrong?

When two people love each other they are committed to one another. When they hurt one another they reconcile through love for one another, not through legal means.

Yes, they reconcile, which is why confession is called the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Sometimes it does involve legal aspects (you probably dont’ understand a lot of marital issues such as violence, addiction, and other problems) that you have not expereinced.

 

[elvisman]

Human beings are destined for hell at birth, because we are born into a state of separation from God. It is not “evil” of God to allow the consequences of our choices to be carried out (permit people to go to hell).

Rom 9:21-22
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction…

Clearly some are vessels of wrath who were created for destruction.

Sorry, Guan – I gotta disagree with you. Whereas we may be destined for hell because of original sin - everybody has a chance out. God doesn’t create us for hell.

God doesn’t create ANYBODY for hell – and the Church has NEVER taught this.

2 Pet. 3:9 tells us that God is, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance".
1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that “God wills the salvation of all.”

The Church simply does not teach what you claim.

 

[OurLady01]

**to OurLady01
**
Let me ask you something. In the parable of the sower, Jesus illustrated all the various types of hearts that receive the Word. Which of the soil types describes your heart?

Good soil.
Shalom.

 

[guanophore]

When the son became destitute and humbly returned to his father, his father remarked that he was alive again. What Jesus meant by that is that the son was returned to a better moral state.

It is interesting that you find it expedient to take it upon yourself to determine what Jesus meant to say. Why is your conclusion more believable than what has been handed down to us from the Apostles?

I agree that the passage does make reference to his moral state, but the Apostles taught that living in sin carries the consequence of not being united with our heavenly inheritance. Notice that the son is still a son, even if he has separated himself from his fathers house.

His previous life was one of discontent, bitterness and pride; his new life was one of humility, respect and subjection. His previous life was not really life, but a waiting-to-die sort of existence.

He was living in a state that separated him from eternal life.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation in no way relates to the parable.

Brian, with all due respect, you are not in a position to make any such assertion. Your posts have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not understand Catholic doctrine.

The parable was recorded by Catholics, for Catholics, and I can assure you that it relates entirely to salvation.

The premise of the Catholic doctrine of salvation is that one can humbly come to Christ, become a child of God through repentance – Just like the son returned to his father – then with one mistake, be kicked out of God’s house until he or she repents.

No, Brian, you are spreading falsehoods. This is a very dangerous practice for your spirit.

“Mistakes” do not separate us from our Father’s house, but mortal sins. The arrogance, pride, and profligate living described in this parable was willful, and deliberate. He was not “kicked out” of his father’s house, but freely chose to leave. This is what happens in the case of mortal sin. A person chooses, deliberately and with full knowledge to engage in a grave matter against God.

You are correct that this separation remains until one repents, just as the son did in the parable.

This process can repeat over and over again throughout a Catholic’s life and it is entirely unbiblical.

If it is so “unbiblical”, then why is there a parable about it in the Scripture?

But as Jesus taught in the parable of the vine and branches, the branches that abide by faith bear fruit, but the branches that bear no fruit are cut off and burned. It would be illogical assume that the dead branches could be unburned. / quote]

Fortunately God is not subject to our meagre logic. He can bring the dead to life.
Brian Culliton;7743420:

It is similar with the olive tree and its branches, many of the natural branches, the Jews, were cut off because of disbelief. Paul said of these branches that if they repent and believe they would be grafted back in.

I am glad that you are able to grasp this Catholic principle.

There is absolutely no support for Rome’s teaching that one can be grafted in, cut off and then grafted in again.

It is clear that your perceptions of God’s ability to return the dead to life are deficient.

When one believes and is joined to God’s family they will either bear fruit or they won’t bear fruit. If they bear fruit God will prune them so they will bear more fruit, but if they fail to bear fruit they will be cut off.

So, are the cut off branches still “saved”? Were they ever “saved”?

The parable of the prodigal son is an illustration of was necessary for the first fruits of God’s household, the Jews, to receive the inheritance of the promises of God. An inheritance they squandered through disbelief and pride, but might receive again through faith and humility.

You will get no arguement on this point. There are many levels of interpretation in Scripture, and this one is certainly valid.

 

[guanophore]

They [Christians] pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. (Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, 5) – Late first or early second century A.D.

Yes, and it is possible to renounce ones citizenship. This does not “undo” the fact that one was once a citizen.