Once Saved Always Saved?

[Sig]

IF a saving faith includes those works by nature, then it in fact mandates good works. Which is requisite of free will.
You see, the major hurdle that the conversation is struggling with the lack of understanding of free will in its essence. Free will, in application to humanity, is choosing God, or not choosing God.

Men can’t choose God apart from grace. To say that they can is Pelagian. A free will, such as the one God has, is free indeed. It needs no help.

Strictly speaking, “sin” is not an entity in itself.

In Romans 5, sin is said to have entered the world. Obviously sin is a “positive” thing, and not a “nothing.”

There is not a dichotomy per se between sin and grace. There is grace, and not grace. It’s just simply easier to say “sin” than “not grace”.

That’s not biblical.

If this was not the case then sin would have had to existed as a primal power, such as God, before eternity. We know this not to be the case. Thus, free will is movement of to or from God, using the opportunities that he provides us. The assumption that you are making is that free will dictates:

1. A lack of “bondage” to sin or grace (the way you understand this to being) an thus grace becomes a play-thing of the will.
   – This is called presumption of grace. It is refuted by Galatians 6:7 in the regards that one is assuming God is a fool for giving him free will AND the opportunity to constantly choose him, or not. This becomes a case-by-case dealing under God’s knowledge of each person’s intent, rather than a blanket doctrine (as I see that you see it).
   – Again, assuming a false dichotomy between “sin” and “grace” as a state of being rather than an active choice defined by said works and faith. Don’t let this get to hair splitting between a state of mortal sin/grace though. Presence of mortal sin on one’s conscience is not dependent on the sin itself, but the lack of grace that it prescribes. Thus, it differentiates from committing the actual sin itself.
   b) God’s will mandates the will of the creature, such that the will of the creature is conformed to the will of the creator under consent.
   -The extent to which “consent” dictates, however, is still not decided. To consent the will of the creator, it would seem that the creature would have to be actively engaged in it by active consent.
   -However, this refutes the idea that you believe that works are part of salvation as faith in action. If works are merely a product of regeneration, then it wouldn’t be active consent, would it? Regeneration would then imply a lack of free will, and thus a lack of ability to actively consent God. Which makes my head spin.

I haven’t read the above. You’re far enough off base on the rest that I’m not interested. Forgive me.

 

[fhansen]

There is no qualifier. The just shall live by faith [alone].

Well, you added the ‘alone’ part, of course The bible, OTOH, has only one place where the term “faith alone” is used ,and that’s where James says that we’re not saved by faith alone.

 

[Sig]

Well, you added the ‘alone’ part, of course The bible, OTOH, has only one place where the term “faith alone” is used ,and that’s where James says that we’re not saved by faith alone.

I’ve added “alone” for clarification only, of course.

The just shall live by faith… An old testament, under-the-law statement.

All men are saved in the same way, by grace, through faith, in God, and not by works; right?

Or are Catholics saved by their works?

 

[Anthony_V]

Men can’t choose God apart from grace. To say that they can is Pelagian. A free will, such as the one God has, is free indeed. It needs no help.

In Romans 5, sin is said to have entered the world. Obviously sin is a “positive” thing, and not a “nothing.”

That’s not biblical.

I haven’t read the above. You’re far enough off base on the rest that I’m not interested. Forgive me.

1. I said no such thing. The only opportunities of grace are God’s.
2. Sin being the actual sin committed, not its effects. So yes, sin did enter the world, but its effects were devoid of grace.
3. Forgive me for not clarifying. I understand it can be frustrating to understand one another. Also, forgive me for the delay in response. I was switching computers (my younger brother needed on, and mom was on his side today)

Peace,
Anthony

 

[fhansen]

I’ve added “alone” for clarification only, of course.

The just shall live by faith… An old testament, under-the-law statement.

All men are saved in the same way, by grace, through faith, in God, and not by works; right?

Or are Catholics saved by their works?

All men are saved by grace. In accordance with James God accomplishes this by faith expressing itself through love (Gal 5:6)- works of *God *given to us, just as our faith is a gift. And all gifts can be rejected. These works are opposed to legalism, unless you think James was a Judaizer?

 

[Anthony_V]

All men are saved by grace. In accordance with James God accomplishes this by faith expressing itself through love (Gal 5:6)- works of *God *given to us, just as our faith is a gift. And all gifts can be rejected. These works are opposed to legalism, unless you think James was a Judaizer?

Well said :clapping:
If I may add on, love is the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit gives many gifts, which we can accept or decline. The way you worded this overall was very sound, though.

 

[Sig]

All men are saved by grace.

Indeed.

In accordance with James God accomplishes this by faith expressing itself through love (Gal 5:6)- works of *God *given to us, just as our faith is a gift.

Paul wrote Galatians.

And all gifts can be rejected.

Then you must believe your will is more important, more powerful than God’s? Interesting.

These works are opposed to legalism

How do you know?

Unless you think James was a Judaizer?

Digging deep into the bag, aren’t you?

 

[Sig]

1. I said no such thing. The only opportunities of grace are God’s.
2. Sin being the actual sin committed, not its effects. So yes, sin did enter the world, but its effects were devoid of grace.
3. Forgive me for not clarifying. I understand it can be frustrating to understand one another. Also, forgive me for the delay in response. I was switching computers (my younger brother needed on, and mom was on his side today)

Peace,
Anthony

1. Thanks for the response.
2. G’night.

 

[Anthony_V]

Then you must believe your will is more important, more powerful than God’s? Interesting.

No one would have free will if God did not permit so. We could all be animals, should he liken to that. However, he did not choose that to be so. Therefore, the principal of our own free will is God exercising his awesome creative power by creating us in his image–with free will, that is. Your statement negates itself, unfortunately.

 

[Anthony_V]

1. Thanks for the response.
2. G’night.

Good night! Sweet dreams, and God bless!

 

[Sig]

All men are saved by grace. In accordance with James God accomplishes this by faith expressing itself through love (Gal 5:6)- works of *God *given to us, just as our faith is a gift. And all gifts can be rejected. These works are opposed to legalism, unless you think James was a Judaizer?

I just realized you never directly answered my question: are Catholics saved by works? Yes? Or, no?

 

[Sig]

No one would have free will if God did not permit so. We could all be animals, should he liken to that. However, he did not choose that to be so. Therefore, the principal of our own free will is God exercising his awesome creative power by creating us in his image–with free will, that is. Your statement negates itself, unfortunately.

Without grace, what are you free to choose?

 

[Sig]

Good night! Sweet dreams, and God bless!

Same to you, friend.

 

[PRmerger]

I just realized you never directly answered my question: are Catholics saved by works? Yes? Or, no?

No. Well, not only by works.

Here’s how Catholics profess we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

 

[fhansen]

Paul wrote Galatians.

Yes??? I didn’t say otherwise.

Then you must believe your will is more important, more powerful than God’s? Interesting.

How can you say that? God allows us to override His will-that’s what made Adam & Eve’s sin possible. That’s why we pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven-because it’s not done unless humans are aligned with it. Otherwise God would be the author of evil.

How do you know?

Because love is always opposed to legalism-and James would never suggest that legalism must work together with faith.

Digging deep into the bag, aren’t you?

Don’t have to.

 

[fhansen]

I just realized you never directly answered my question: are Catholics saved by works? Yes? Or, no?

Sure I did. Reread it. No one is saved-Calvinists included-unless they willfully pick up their cross and follow Jesus-along the way God’s planned for them which inevitably includes works-expressions of love. Read the Parable of the Talents. It explains the grace/free will dynamic-and the consequences of not going along with the plan.

 

[Anthony_V]

Without grace, what are you free to choose?

Sin, which is lack of grace. That’s why I don’t find that your argument holds water too terribly much. Perhaps you could elaborate in the morning when you read this.

 

[Frank956]

Sig has the uncanny ability to re-direct questions. It’s exceedingly comical and it’s kept me from attending to my homework! Hopefully when I log on tomorrow I’ll see more gems resembling "So what is your definition of is? Oh that is is unBiblical because I say it is. "

 

[Cat_Herder]

Sig has the uncanny ability to re-direct questions. It’s exceedingly comical and it’s kept me from attending to my homework! Hopefully when I log on tomorrow I’ll see more gems resembling "So what is your definition of is? Oh that is is unBiblical because I say it is. "

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7475

I’m glad you’re able to laugh about it–you’re better than I am.

 

[Farsight001]

Yes it is.

Once more, I don’t see where you’ve explained anything. You’ve made an assertion. That’s all.

You say one can sin and lose salvation. Prove it.

You misunderstand. I said that the word “know” does NOT mean that that knowledge is every lasting. In other words, that the knowledge that you are saved can be lost. I proved this by use of an analogy.