Once saved always saved?

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ascund:
The word uttermost comes from the Greek word pantelhv~. The word has two parts: a prefix (pan) which means all and the root (telhv~) which means complete. Thus, the whole word means all-complete or perfect or utter. The KJV rendering of “uttermost” is a faithful translation of this concept.

Because Jesus: has finished the task of redemption propitiating God’s wrath, intercedes for us, represents us, mediates for us with God, intercedes for us, lives forever, has sanctified us, functions as our surety, brings us to God, is the basis of our life, and will never ever leave us - He will always be able to save to the UTTERMOST (Heb 7:25) those who come to Him.
Yes, ascund, but who does he save to this uttermost level? The verse reveals that as well, those who come to God by Him. Note the word come as it is used in this verse…

προσέρχομαι
proserchomai
pros-er’-khom-ahee
From G4314 and G2064 (including its alternate); to approach, that is, (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to: - (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).

from

πρός
pros
pros
A strengthened form of G4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, that is, toward (with the genitive case the side of, that is, pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, that is, near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, that is, whither or for which it is predicated): - about, according to, against, among, at, because of, before, between, ([where-]) by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), + together, to ([you]) -ward, unto, with (-in). In compounds it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

and

ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er’-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

using your same rules stated above, ἔρχομαι (erchomai) being present and imperfect tense must be the action of us in the present time. πρός (pros) denotes movement which is done by us now. Hence Christ is able to save those who come to the Father through Him. If this movement ceases, there is no evidence that this promise of salvation will still be in effect, but rather as Hebrews says latter…

Heb 10:36 For patience is necessary for you: that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise. (DRB)

here need is

χρεία
chreia
khri’-ah
From the base of G5530 or G5534; employment, that is, an affair; also (by implication) occasion, demand, requirement or destitution: - business, lack, necessary (-ity), need (-ful), use, want.

the word for done is…

ποιέω
poieō
Thayer Definition:
  1. to make
    1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
    1b) to be the authors of, the cause
    1c) to make ready, to prepare
    1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
    1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self
    1f) to make a thing out of something
    1g) to (make, i.e.) render one anything
    1g1) to (make, i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
    1g2) to (make, i.e.) declare one anything
    1h) to put one forth, to lead him out
    1i) to make one do something
    1i1) cause one to
    1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
  2. to do
    2a) to act rightly, do well
    2a1) to carry out, to execute
    2b) to do a thing unto one
    2b1) to do to one
    2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
    2d) to celebrate, keep
    2d1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
    2e) to perform: to a promise
    Part of Speech: verb
and promise…

ἐπαγγελία
epaggelia
ep-ang-el-ee’-ah
From G1861; an announcement (for information, assent or pledge; especially a divine assurance of good): - message, promise.

the overall meaning is clear, first do God’s will and then recieve the promise. As with Heb 7:25 we first must act before we recieve. It is not so cut and dry as you would wish for us to believe.
 
The process of falling away, and changing one’s beliefs, which eventually can lead a person to deny Jesus, is described in many verses.

Given all of the ways to fall away from the faith, the Bible tells us to examine ourselves, and work out our salvation with fear. Sometimes religious people who may believe OSAS become very offended if you preach to them anything that might question their salvation. They say, “How dare you!”. Well, I dare because scripture commands us to question our salvation.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Next is a list of the things lead to falling away from the faith and belief in Jesus.
Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):

  1. *]for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6
    *]that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27
    *]hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22
    *]beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6
    *]not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24
    *]faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26
    *]he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9
    *]unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16
    *]err from the truth James 5:19-20
    *]lust, and enticed James 1:13-16
    *]the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10
    *]be a friend of the world James 4:4
    *]the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22
    *]the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22
    *]have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13
    *]tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21
    *]be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8
    *]servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16
    *]being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17
    *]seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1
    *]an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15
    *]sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26
    *]having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:
    *]counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29

    (cont’d)
 
(cont’d)

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Matt 7:
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James 1:22-24
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

2 Peter 1:1-10
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For** if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for
if **ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 
(cont’d)

James 5:
19 Brethren,if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb**, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.**

Matt 13:
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matt 13:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Hebrews 12
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1 Timothy 1:18-20:
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(cont’d - 1 more!)
 
(cont’d…whew!)

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The person who believes OSAS often will look at all the evidence above and conclude that if a person “falls away” he was never really saved to begin with. I’m sorry, the Bible never says, “he who falls away was never really saved to begin with”. All the messages and exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers.
 
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ascund:
Greetings Philthy
…Roman 3:19 shows that all the world will be condemned based on self-righteousness.
Of course. Catholics don’t actually believe in self-righteousness- they are simply accused of it by those who don’t know any better.
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ascund:
Well, half-true. The look can be done even by a quadrapilegic (spelling?) who can only look with the heart. Hence you have used the definition of any type of “work” for “the work of obedience” (John 6:28-29). This is confusion.
Actually Lloyd you have introduced confusion. I never used the word “work” at all - why did you even bring it up? I used the word obedience, and it was precisely the word I meant to use. Further, John 6:28-29 doesnt use the term “work of obedience” at all. So your comments seem irrelevant. Looking to the snake was a form of obedience (required by God) that was the conditional for the healing to occur. One may have believed God would heal you, but that healing required that you be OBEDIENT and actually look at the brazen serpent. If you expect me to believe that the act of obedience and the belief that God could do it are one in the same, you will have to do much better than you have so far. The fact remains that the actual action of looking to the brazen serpent was the conditional god put forth. He did not say simply believing He would cure you, PER SE, would cure you. And it is precisely this latter contention that you would have us believe. Sorry, its not there.
Separately, you ignored completely the most germaine part of my reply to your snake analogy: did the one look permanently cure the person of a lifetime of snakebites or simply the most recent? If your analogy has any relevance to OSAS you need to demonstrate, unambiguously, that the former is the case. If you can not, then I stick to my contention that your prior allegiance to OSAS biased your interpretation of the verse. Don’t feel bad - I do it too…
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ascund:
Sure. The actual Greek employs the definite article plus a present participle all within a third class conditional sentence…blah blah blah… This is standard Greek that all 2nd year students (should) know.
I presume you meant that all 2nd year theology students should know - another inaccurate conclusion. All students need better logical analysis and careful articulation otherwise they are hopeless.
The problem is, you wrote the verse in english. You had the choice of using “will not perish”, but you didn’t and therein lies the problem. It was wrong of you to translate the Greek into an english form which does not support the idea you are espousing. Whether or not the greek should be translated “may not” or “will not” was not my point. My point was please be careful with your words. If you expect me to follow your thoughts, articulate them efficiently and unambiguously…I prefer the use of the syllogism myself.
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ascund:
Simply look up 1 John 5:13.
Phew! Long post. Perhaps we should stop copying everything that went before.
Lloyd
1John 5:11-13
My first memorized bible verse. My only comment is that it does not address the “completeness and permanancy” elements of OSAS. It in no way addresses someone who “believes for a while” but then falls to the world and its lures. In addition, your application of it to OSAS does not square with less ambiguous statements which speak to the necessity of perseverance in faith. For example “If you do not forgive others their sins, neither will your heavenly father forgive you yours” When will people stop sinning against you Lloyd? Does not our lord require a lifetime of forgiving others? It would seem my sins aren’t entirely forgiven until I have forgiven others as well. Very little ambiguity in His statement.
If you are correct, however, Catholics are saved through their faith in Jesus as their resurrected Lord and Savior. but you don’t seem to believe that. I don’t say that in a mean way, it’s just that your goal here is unclear. It would seem that you would like to use verses like this to support “permanent salvation through belief alone” but then you contradict yourself and imply that Catholic faith isn’t good enough! If I am wrong, pardon me - these are logical conclusions I am reaching.

Peace,

Phil
 
Greetings
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Philthy:
Actually Lloyd you have introduced confusion. I never used the word “work” at all - why did you even bring it up? I used the word obedience, and it was precisely the word I meant to use. Further, John 6:28-29 doesnt use the term “work of obedience” at all. So your comments seem irrelevant.
You missed the point. Not only does the verse NOT point to works, it has not connection with water baptism. You make a big fuss over turning the neck for the purpose of introduction obedience ( a synonym for works ). Justification has no connection with baptism, sacraments, or works of obedience. John 6 shows that there might be some pre-faith postering like hear the gospel and make a decision for Christ. Be not so easily blinded. These are synonyms for faith only.
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Philthy:
Separately, you ignored completely the most germaine part of my reply to your snake analogy: did the one look permanently cure the person of a lifetime of snakebites or simply the most recent? If your analogy has any relevance to OSAS you need to demonstrate, unambiguously, that the former is the case. If you can not, then I stick to my contention that your prior allegiance to OSAS biased your interpretation of the verse. Don’t feel bad - I do it too…
The key verse is Numb 21:9. When any man beheld the serpent, he lived. The word beheld is an Hiphil Perfect of nabat. The Hiphil tense expresses causative action. The Perfect mood expresses a completed action. Remember, the Hebrew verbs are not like Greek, Latin and English. The Hebrew tenses are centered around completed versus incomplete action. Here, it is a one time completed look.

The next word lived is an Qal Perfect of chayay. The Qal tense expresses simple action of the root in the active voice. Again, this is a Perfect mood. The action is complete. What is so hard about “completed?”
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Philthy:
1John 5:11-13 - - - My first memorized bible verse. My only comment is that it does not address the “completeness and permanancy” elements of OSAS. It in no way addresses someone who “believes for a while” but then falls to the world and its lures. In addition, your application of it to OSAS does not square with less ambiguous statements which speak to the necessity of perseverance in faith.

What is so hard about a simple lexical look up? The word “know” is a perfect tense. It shows more completed action - with the idea that the results of the past event continue. How clearer does it have it be? Your error is to base salvation on human faithfulness via obedience. Paul, In Gal 3:1-3, asks rhetorically, oh stupid galatians, why do you wish to complete your faith with works when you began in the Spirit? Can works make you perfect?

The obvious answer to his rhetorical question is that any appeal to obedience is against the gospel message. Yes! You can know for sure!

Furthermore, there is NO verse in scripture that shows a person can lose their eternal security or the possession of their eternal life. I know you will answer with passages that speak of loss of something. I’ll deal with them as you bring them up. Context will be the answer in each case.

Yes or no answers please:
Q1: Is Jesus sufficient for salvation or not?
Q2: Can anyone be perfect enough to earn heaven even with the Spirit’s indwelling assistance?

Lloyd
 
Greetings

Can the author of Hebrews contradict himself?

quote=E.E.N.S.
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[/quote]

This is certainly a frightful verse. But where in here is the words “lose eternal life” or “get kicked out of God’s family” or “eternal damnation?” In context, those referenced merely died the physical death. Your theology supplies the errant conclusion.

The author of Hebrews says that Jesus is the SURETY of the New Covenant. Certainly you know about co-signing a bank note. I’ve done it. My son works at a bank and sees it happen many times each week. When the first named person cannot pay, the bank goes after the co-signer.

The Bible clearly teaches that when any believer defaults through lack of obedience, unfaithfulness or rebellion, Jesus pays what is required.

Meanwhile, Catholic theology holds that Jesus, the co-signer of the covenant, is either an unwilling or bankrupt surety. Either way, in the name of Jesus, Catholic theology unwittingly denies the very Jesus they claim to believe in and obey.

No. The author does not contradict himself. The warnings are for eternal rewards - not eternal destiny. It is a great error not to understand simple basic terminology.

Lloyd
 
Lloyd, I can see that you are going to keep you blinders on while reading scripture, so let me go another route…why do you, Lloyd, believe in Jesus Christ?
 
Greetings
E.E.N.S.:
Lloyd, I can see that you are going to keep you blinders on while reading scripture, so let me go another route…why do you, Lloyd, believe in Jesus Christ?
Wow! I must have really demolished a lot of Catholic rhetoric for you to want to avoid the topic of Jesus as SURETY.

I believe in Jesus because I know that I am a sinner for whom HE died to save. My sins are forgiven, Jesus is my Savior. The “why” isn’t as important as the fact that I’ve placed my trust in Him - alone.

Not only is Jesus my SURETY, He is also the mediator of the New Covenant.

Do you know the NT clauses? Try give me just one of them.
Do you know the pronouns of the clauses? This could be an easy guess.

This is the basics of standard business. Know your contract!
I bet you don’t know the NT contract. But, it is easy to prove me wrong.

Waiting
Lloyd
 
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ascund:
Greetings

Wow! I must have really demolished a lot of Catholic rhetoric for you to want to avoid the topic of Jesus as SURETY.
On the contrary - you haven’t even put a scratch in it.
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ascund:
I believe in Jesus because I know that I am a sinner for whom HE died to save. My sins are forgiven, Jesus is my Savior. The “why” isn’t as important as the fact that I’ve placed my trust in Him - alone.
This doesn’t fully answer the question that I proposed…I asked you “why” so to me it is important [as I am asking a leading question.]
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ascund:
Not only is Jesus my SURETY, He is also the mediator of the New Covenant.

Do you know the NT clauses? Try give me just one of them.
Do you know the pronouns of the clauses? This could be an easy guess.

This is the basics of standard business. Know your contract!
I bet you don’t know the NT contract. But, it is easy to prove me wrong.

Waiting
Lloyd
How do you know of Jesus and His “clauses?” (I know your answer, but for debate’s sake, I would like you to answer - as well as the question above.)

Thanks!
 
As St. Augustine said, “I would not believe in the Gospel, did not the authority of the Church move me.” Christ and the Church can no more be regarded seperately than can a head and its body. Too often we hear people, like Lloyd, trying to hack away at the Faith to fit it to his own personal desires…I ask, how would such a person believe and have faith in Jesus Christ for the first 380 years since there was no Bible as we know it? Well, since Jesus, His Church, the Faith are living and not dead, then they must grow (like the parable of the mustard seed) - true the Bible is the inspired, written Word of God, but it was never meant to stop there (in fact it didn’t start there either.) And only through the Church, which is the fulness of Christ, do we come to know, that which we have today as the written Word, as inspired and therefore infallible. The aim of the Church in her official systemis simply to secure the great and primary Christian idea that properly only one authority, only one teacher, only one sanctifier, only one pastor: Christ, the Lord.

Okay, back to my first point; the written communications of the apostles were only supplimentary to their oral preaching, sometimes in confirmation of it or preparatory to it. Even the Epistles to the Romans, Ephesians, and Hebrews, in spite of their more general range, are concerned particularly with the needs of the people to whom they were addressed, and make no sort of claim to be an exhaustive exposition of the Christian Faith. So little thought was given to any final literary expression of the gospel that some apostles left no writing whatever after them, and that apostolic writings could even disappear (cf. 1 Cor 5:9; Col 4:16)

Therefore it was the living word which was to bring the new faith to mankind. “Whatever you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim 2:2)

There is a HUGE lack of knowledge and understanding of Christianity as a whole which has been getting far worse since the deformation…a wound in the Body of Christ for sure.

We should pray daily for unity to be restored to Christians throughout the world.

“For in proportion as man loves the Church, so has he the Holy Spirit.” -St. Augustine

God bless!
 
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ascund:
Greetings

You missed the point. Not only does the verse NOT point to works, it has not connection with water baptism.
I never claimed it pointed to works or baptism, only obedience.
I am content having missed your point - no need to belabor it - if it requires such protacted explanation it is probably irrelevant.
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ascund:
You make a big fuss over turning the neck for the purpose of introduction obedience ( a synonym for works ).
I didn’t make a fuss - I made a valid conclusion: an act of obedience was required to effect Gods saving plan through the brazen serpent. You don’t like the conclusion - Im ok with that. It remains valid nonetheless. It undermines the validity of your argument for OSAS so I understand your consternation.
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ascund:
John 6 shows that there might be some pre-faith postering like hear the gospel and make a decision for Christ. Be not so easily blinded. These are synonyms for faith only.

Pre-faith posturing? Would that be necessary prefaith posturing or optional prefaith posturing? This sounds extrabiblical to me.
Faith only is a synonym for faith alone - and it is mentioned only once in the bible. I love the bluebible link!Jam 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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ascund:
The next word lived is an Qal Perfect of chayay. The Qal tense expresses simple action of the root in the active voice. Again, this is a Perfect mood. The action is complete. What is so hard about “completed?”

The hard part of completion in relating it to OSAS is that it can apply to a present sitution that you are permanently cured of, or it could apply to the present and all future situations. The example is ambiguous with respect to future events, despite your excellent analysis
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ascund:
Your error is to base salvation on human faithfulness via obedience.

I don’t remember saying that. That is not representative of Catholic doctrine, either. All I have done is to comment on your statements in support of OSAS and to point out logical flaws and exceptions which would allow one to reach a conclusion different than yours.
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ascund:
Furthermore, there is NO verse in scripture that shows a person can lose their eternal security or the possession of their eternal life.

I disagree with you - like many of your protestant brethren do.
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ascund:
I know you will answer with passages that speak of loss of something. I’ll deal with them as you bring them up. Context will be the answer in each case.

I can hardly wait!🙂

Yes or no answers please:
Q1: Is Jesus sufficient for salvation or not?
Q2: Can anyone be perfect enough to earn heaven even with the Spirit’s indwelling assistance?
Lloyd
I’d be happy to answer - but you owe me an from the last post:

I confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead - am I saved? yes or no?

BTW - Q1 demonstrates a gross negligence on your part in phrasing - please restate the question with more thought to precisely what you are asking.

Phil
 
**2606 **All the troubles, for all time, of humanity enslaved by sin and death, all the petitions and intercessions of salvation history are summed up in this cry of the incarnate Word. Here the Father accepts them and, beyond all hope, answers them by raising his Son. Thus is fulfilled and brought to completion the drama of prayer in the economy of creation and salvation. The Psalter gives us the key to prayer in Christ. In the “today” of the Resurrection the Father says: “You are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.”

The Letter to the Hebrews expresses in dramatic terms how the prayer of Jesus accomplished the victory of salvation: “In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.”
 
Philthy - It may be that it is sufficient, but is it Efficacious?
 
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conrad01:
The whole of the N.T. backs this up.
Hi Conrad,
A lot of people think that, but that is really based on ignoring a lot of what scripture says. Can you answer the following scripture based questions?

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Your brother in Christ.
 
But for Grace:
Philthy - It may be that it is sufficient, but is it Efficacious?
Yea - I know exactly where you are going and I understand well the difference between sufficiency and efficacy. Those questions (Q1 and Q2 ) were not mine - they were his, I just messed up the quotations on my post.

Phil
 
I messed this up on my previous post - here’s how it should have looked:
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ascund:
Yes or no answers please:
Q1: Is Jesus sufficient for salvation or not?
Q2: Can anyone be perfect enough to earn heaven even with the Spirit’s indwelling assistance?
Lloyd
I’d be happy to answer these, but you owe me an answer from the last post:
I confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead - am I saved? yes or no?

BTW - Q1 demonstrates a gross negligence on your part in phrasing - please restate the question with more thought to precisely what you are asking.

Phil
 
I grew up S. Baptist----to be saved in this denomination you have to say the sinner’s prayer with all your heart. And if you said that prayer with all your heart (preferably in front of the congregation at the end of an altar call after about 2000 verses of “Just As I Am”) you were saved forever and ever amen.

The problem for me was I was never quite sure I had said the prayer with “all my heart.” So I ran down the aisle about 3 more times and tried it again. And every time I was re-saved, I was re-baptized. Finally, I gave up on it.

My early adult years were spent as an agnostic who sinned outrageously and encouraged others to do so as well. (www.kimsstory.com)

Now, finally at 45 I’ve found Rome, sweet home. Thank you Jesus!

When fundamentalist friends worry about my salvation, I remind them that I was “saved” their way before, so why worry about me now? So for me, OSAS is a great way of getting the fundamentalists off my case!
 
Philthy - It is alright, 👍

ascund - I redirect my previous question to you.

It may be that Jeusu is sufficient, but is He Efficacious?
 
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