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valient_Lucy
Guest
I know. I made my first confession two weeks ago.
Nine more days and then I’m Catholic too!
I was just putting my Protestant hat back on for a minute to try to answer that question.
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Nine more days and then I’m Catholic too!
I was just putting my Protestant hat back on for a minute to try to answer that question.
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harnettrealtor
Guest
Baptists are BIG believers in once saved always saved. They believe that once you are baptized (by immersion only), you are saved from Hell. It does not matter what you do in the future. You are saved. Powerful water, huh?
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LRThunder
Guest
Actually, Baptists don’t believe that baptism itself saves a person, but is done in obedience to God. According to Baptists, baptism only occurs after one becomes a Christian.
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harnettrealtor
Guest
I just read a post that said Protestants believe in once saved always saved. As a Methodist, let me set the record straight. Not all Protestants are alike! Denominations that are based upon the Calvinistic view, such as Baptist and Presbyterian, are more likely to believe this than one based upon the Wesleyan view, such as Methodists. Please be educated on Protestants before judging them!
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deb1
Guest
This is why it is important to remember to use adjectives such as: some, most or a few. There are many beliefs among Protestants and we have to be careful not to lump all together.
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Harland
Guest
That is what makes it so hard for me to understand what protestants believe. Each denomination has its own interpretation. And I don’t think there is a strictly a Lutheran, Calvinist , Weslayen or Zwinglyian interpretation anymore. I think most denominations pick and chose what parts of the reformers teachings they want to fallow. Their founders take some form Luther same from Calvin some from Zwingly and each generation has added their own spin. That is why there are so meany different denominations.
It is interesting reading the history of the reformers. The three major reformers were contemporaries so they had the opportunity to get together and iron out the differences of each interpretation. But did they? No, they debated their differences but they couldn’t come to common ground. Could it be they each had their own Holy Spirit guiding them?
These are just my ramblings. So take them for what they are worth.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Most only believe you are only baptised when the Holy Spirit starts dwelling within your body…
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apophasis
Guest
Leahlnancsi:
It is true that Christian “religions” cannot function apart from the exercise of the idea of “confession of sins” for forgiveness of sins. But Divine forgiveness is not based on such a religious exercise of men. Divine forgiveness of sins is based on the historical FACT that God Himself provided the means by which men ARE forgiven of ALL sins (past, present and future); that being the cross of Christ (Matt. 26:28).“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you (Acts 13:38)
"…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14).The notion that a believer can lose his/her salvation (gifted by God through faith in Christ) MUST be based on the false inference that personal merit is somehow involved in Divine salvation. If personal merit is at all involved in saving you, then personal de-merit must of necessity un-save you.
But the Biblical fact is that though one is saved (brought into a right relationship with God) by God through an immediate act of grace (unmerited, Divine favor), the forgiveness of his sins is not. Divine forgiveness is rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the FACT that his debt has been fully paid by Another: Jesus Christ. An infinitely holy God does not, nor cannot, deal with any sins (past, present or future) in mercy or any kind of leniency. He cannot waive the righteous judgments or exercise clemency toward a sinner simply because he confesses his sins. Such an act would violate His own holiness and justice.
Instead, through the Biblical message of the gospel men are told that they may now stand forever pardoned before God, not because God is gracious enough to excuse (forgive) their sins through an act of confessing them, but because there is plentiful redemption through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 1:7; see Col. 2:13-14).
If it is God Himself who saves (Titus 3:5), then only God Himself can un-save. But this is not at all what Scripture teaches (John 6:37). The notion that God un-saves anyone is derived from the totally un-biblical notion that Divine salvation is rooted in a merit/de-merit, religious system. A system which frustrates, even violates, the Apostolic message of the cross of Christ. Those who teach this doctrine fail to comprehend what God has infinitely accomplished through the cross.
The faith of those who believe in eternal security is based on the written Word of God, not the religious beliefs of men or an organization. The “concept” of “OSAS” is quite simple - that it’s God Himself who saves, men do nor cannot save themselves:“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement…;” (Titus 3:4-8; emphasis mine)So if it is God Himself who saves the believer, and that by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), then it is only God Himself who can “un-save” the believer.
It is true that Christian “religions” cannot function apart from the exercise of the idea of “confession of sins” for forgiveness of sins. But Divine forgiveness is not based on such a religious exercise of men. Divine forgiveness of sins is based on the historical FACT that God Himself provided the means by which men ARE forgiven of ALL sins (past, present and future); that being the cross of Christ (Matt. 26:28).“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you (Acts 13:38)
"…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14).The notion that a believer can lose his/her salvation (gifted by God through faith in Christ) MUST be based on the false inference that personal merit is somehow involved in Divine salvation. If personal merit is at all involved in saving you, then personal de-merit must of necessity un-save you.
But the Biblical fact is that though one is saved (brought into a right relationship with God) by God through an immediate act of grace (unmerited, Divine favor), the forgiveness of his sins is not. Divine forgiveness is rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the FACT that his debt has been fully paid by Another: Jesus Christ. An infinitely holy God does not, nor cannot, deal with any sins (past, present or future) in mercy or any kind of leniency. He cannot waive the righteous judgments or exercise clemency toward a sinner simply because he confesses his sins. Such an act would violate His own holiness and justice.
Instead, through the Biblical message of the gospel men are told that they may now stand forever pardoned before God, not because God is gracious enough to excuse (forgive) their sins through an act of confessing them, but because there is plentiful redemption through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 1:7; see Col. 2:13-14).
If it is God Himself who saves (Titus 3:5), then only God Himself can un-save. But this is not at all what Scripture teaches (John 6:37). The notion that God un-saves anyone is derived from the totally un-biblical notion that Divine salvation is rooted in a merit/de-merit, religious system. A system which frustrates, even violates, the Apostolic message of the cross of Christ. Those who teach this doctrine fail to comprehend what God has infinitely accomplished through the cross.
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Aaron_I
Guest
Welcome apophasis. I hope you will stay on these forums for a while and learn just how Scriptural the Catholic Church is.
As you so rightly asserted, we are saved by grace through faith. The Bible also tells us “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6). I certainly think that the best way to describe our salvation is that we are saved by grace through faith working in love.
But what is love? First of all, keep in mind that the word for love in the bible is caritas, a word that translates much more accurately to charity than to love. Charity seems to imply works, but let’s see what the Bible has to say:
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)
“Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me.” (John 14:21)
“Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.” (John 15:5-6)
“If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.” (John 15:10)
“For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments.” (1John 5:3)
“By you stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” (Romans 2:5-8)
“This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works." (Titus 3:8)
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:22)
There is no amount of works we can perform that merit salvation. It is necessary, however, to continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Notice how well that fits in with what I said earlier about grace through faith working in love. The point of the works isn’t to make ourselves just, as that is impossible. Rather it is to truly love God. True love is a unification of the will. If we do not work to unify our wills to God, then we will not love God.
Of course, this could easily have been surmised from the scripture I used above. We’re told that we have to keep the commandments to remain in his love. Furthermore those who don’t remain in him will be cast into fire. Likewise, following the example from Romans 11, we the branches have been grafted onto the root. This happens when we accept Christ through baptism. It’s still necessary, however, to “remain in his kindness” or else we will be cut off.
Just because we have to carry out our salvation in fear and trembling doesn’t mean that we are in constant fear of damnation. Christ has left his Church with the means of reconciliation (John 20:21-23). I’m quite content to abide by the decisions of the apostles and their successors. After all, it was to them that Christ said “and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:30).
As you so rightly asserted, we are saved by grace through faith. The Bible also tells us “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6). I certainly think that the best way to describe our salvation is that we are saved by grace through faith working in love.
But what is love? First of all, keep in mind that the word for love in the bible is caritas, a word that translates much more accurately to charity than to love. Charity seems to imply works, but let’s see what the Bible has to say:
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)
“Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me.” (John 14:21)
“Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.” (John 15:5-6)
“If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.” (John 15:10)
“For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments.” (1John 5:3)
“By you stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” (Romans 2:5-8)
“This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works." (Titus 3:8)
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:22)
There is no amount of works we can perform that merit salvation. It is necessary, however, to continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Notice how well that fits in with what I said earlier about grace through faith working in love. The point of the works isn’t to make ourselves just, as that is impossible. Rather it is to truly love God. True love is a unification of the will. If we do not work to unify our wills to God, then we will not love God.
Of course, this could easily have been surmised from the scripture I used above. We’re told that we have to keep the commandments to remain in his love. Furthermore those who don’t remain in him will be cast into fire. Likewise, following the example from Romans 11, we the branches have been grafted onto the root. This happens when we accept Christ through baptism. It’s still necessary, however, to “remain in his kindness” or else we will be cut off.
Just because we have to carry out our salvation in fear and trembling doesn’t mean that we are in constant fear of damnation. Christ has left his Church with the means of reconciliation (John 20:21-23). I’m quite content to abide by the decisions of the apostles and their successors. After all, it was to them that Christ said “and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:30).
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sandusky
Guest
Aphophasis:
Aphophasis:
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Scholastic17
Guest
I am a Latin Rite Catholic, but i do have a fairly decent grasp of these concepts.
- “Once saved, always saved” in Protestant Christianity is the concept that, once a person accepts Christ as Lord and Saviour, he is automatically gauranteed salvation because of this. Protestants believe that, because Christ’s merits on the cross are infinate, then there is nothing that can remove the application of these merits upon individuals. In the words of one particular protestant: “Your actions did not make you righteous. How can your actions make you unrighteous?”
- Explained in 1
- Presuming they still believe in Jesus as lord and saviour
- Presuming the Protestant even accepts the idea of penance (as explained in 1), the idea is that he doesn’t need a priest. He can confess directly to Jesus. Go figure.
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sandusky
Guest
Psalm 32:3-5 (by King David)
3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.
5* I acknowledged my sin to you,** and my iniquity I did not hide;** I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; and you forgave the guilt of my sin.**
The Lord, brethren, stands in need of nothing; and He desires nothing of any one, except that confession be made to Him. For, says the elect David, “I will confess unto the Lord; and that will please Him more than a young bullock that hath horns and hoofs. Let the poor see it, and be glad.”
*—Clement (known by Paul: Php 4:3) in his First Epistle to the Corinthians
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deb1
Guest
Yes.
Read 2 Sam Ch.11-Ch.12:13; I will include the pertinent verse:
2 Samuel 12:13
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.”
(cf Lev 20:10; 24:17; Pro 28:13; Mic 7:18).
There is no partiality with God (Rom 2:11); He forgives me as He forgave David, no priest, no penance; moreover, David’s sins were what you refer to as “mortal;” how much more will He also forgive sins that you refer to as “venial” in the same manner?
Sandusky
This particular biblical passage made me curious. Couldn’t a Jewish person use this same text as proof that Jesus is not needed for forgiveness of sins? Afterall this is not a New Testament passage.
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Scholastic17
Guest
John 20:22
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Ted_CharlotteNC
Guest
I am converted Southern Baptist. They are probably the biggest propponent of OSAS.
It is a religion that is just one step from Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons. It bases 98% of it’s beliefs on 3 or 4 chapters in Romans and completely ignores the teachngs of Jesus at the Last Supper and John 6.
All you have to do to be saved is walk down the aisle and next week you can be Baptized (assuming it works into the church schedule). Funny thing is Baptists dont believe baptism saves, so what is the point? They practice Lord’s Supper once a quarter and even then it is just symbolic.
It is a religion that is just one step from Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons. It bases 98% of it’s beliefs on 3 or 4 chapters in Romans and completely ignores the teachngs of Jesus at the Last Supper and John 6.
All you have to do to be saved is walk down the aisle and next week you can be Baptized (assuming it works into the church schedule). Funny thing is Baptists dont believe baptism saves, so what is the point? They practice Lord’s Supper once a quarter and even then it is just symbolic.
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sandusky
Guest
Sandusky said:
deb1:
No; the text doesn’t prove that; do you think that this passage proves that Jesus is not needed for the forgiveness of sin?
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Scholastic17
Guest
It doesn’t prove it, though if not read in light of the New Testament, it could certainly be interpretated that way.
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sandusky
Guest
deb1,
In your post #53, what you have attributed to me in the top quote is what exoflare said.
In your post #53, what you have attributed to me in the top quote is what exoflare said.
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deb1
Guest
Yes, I believe that Jesus is needed for the forgiveness of sins but I do think that your biblical passage could be used by a person of Jewish faith to prove that Jesus isn’t needed.
My hubby is of Jewish descent and I once read a book by an Orthodox Rabbi who attempted to counter Christian prostelyzing of Jewish people. One of his points was that the Jewish religion has always taught that God can forgive a person. He used passages from the bible such as are in Jeremiah and, I am pretty certain, the passage that you quoted. Because of my reading of this book I just found it interesting that you used this particular biblical passage.
If you need to know the name of the book, give me a few days and I will try and refind it. I read a lot and have boxes of books that I would have to go through.
D
deb1
Guest
My computer is not the best and occasionally freezes up for no reason. After I posted, I realized that somehow I had posted the wrong quotes but I when I tried to fix the problem my computer began to freeze up. Sorry about the confusion.
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