Once Saved, Always Saved

[LionHeart1981]

Catholics have been saved, are being saved and will be saved!

Shalom,
Lionheart

 

[Nana_Rose]

Dear Aaron I.
I notice that you posted some very good points. Ones I wrestled with a time or two. I wondered why no one has talked about these. I’ve read many passages in the Bible that seem to directly contradict OSAS. Can anyone comment on those posted? Thanks.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Aaron I.:

Welcome apophasis. I hope you will stay on these forums for a while and learn just how Scriptural the Catholic Church is.

As you so rightly asserted, we are saved by grace through faith. The Bible also tells us “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6). I certainly think that the best way to describe our salvation is that we are saved by grace through faith working in love.

But what is love? First of all, keep in mind that the word for love in the bible is caritas, a word that translates much more accurately to charity than to love. Charity seems to imply works, but let’s see what the Bible has to say:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)

“Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me.” (John 14:21)

“Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.” (John 15:5-6)

“If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.” (John 15:10)

“For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments.” (1John 5:3)

“By you stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” (Romans 2:5-8)

“This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works." (Titus 3:8)

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:22)

There is no amount of works we can perform that merit salvation. It is necessary, however, to continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Notice how well that fits in with what I said earlier about grace through faith working in love. The point of the works isn’t to make ourselves just, as that is impossible. Rather it is to truly love God. True love is a unification of the will. If we do not work to unify our wills to God, then we will not love God.

Of course, this could easily have been surmised from the scripture I used above. We’re told that we have to keep the commandments to remain in his love. Furthermore those who don’t remain in him will be cast into fire. Likewise, following the example from Romans 11, we the branches have been grafted onto the root. This happens when we accept Christ through baptism. It’s still necessary, however, to “remain in his kindness” or else we will be cut off.

Just because we have to carry out our salvation in fear and trembling doesn’t mean that we are in constant fear of damnation. Christ has left his Church with the means of reconciliation (John 20:21-23). I’m quite content to abide by the decisions of the apostles and their successors. After all, it was to them that Christ said “and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:30).

 

[deb1]

deb1:

Yes, I believe that Jesus is needed for the forgiveness of sins but I do think that your biblical passage could be used by a person of Jewish faith to prove that Jesus isn’t needed.

My hubby is of Jewish descent and I once read a book by an Orthodox Rabbi who attempted to counter Christian proselytizing of Jewish people. One of his points was that the Jewish religion has always taught that God can forgive a person. He used passages from thebible such as are in Jeremiah and, I am pretty certain, the passage that you quoted. Because of my reading of this book I just found it interesting that you used this particular biblical passage.

If you need to know the name of the book, give me a few days and I will try and re find it. I read a lot and have boxes of books that I would have to go through.

I went to bed and then suddenly realized that I wrote the word, Jeremiah, when I meant to say, the story of Jonah. Sorry. I can only plead sleepiness when I wrote the above post.

 

[deb1]

deb1:

If you need to know the name of the book, give me a few days and I will try and refind it. I read a lot and have boxes of books that I would have to go through.

Hooray for me. See what one sleepy, obsessed insomniac can do. I think that I found the Jewish book that I referred to in the above post. Here is a link to the book. I am pretty certain that this is the book that I read.

judaism.com/display.asp?nt=DH&keyword=jesus&etn=EIHAE

The book is called: **You Take Jesus. I’ll Take G-d
**How to Refute Christian Missionaries
by Samuel Levine

Although I read this book as a nonChristian, I seem to recall finding it’s tone not very charitable. I only mention this book because I found it interesting that the verse which were quoted from Samuel were used in this book to attempt to disprove Christianity.

 

[apophasis]

Aaron I.:

As you so rightly asserted, we are saved by grace through faith.

I didn’t “assert” it, I quoted from the Apostle Paul

Just because we have to carry out our salvation in fear and trembling doesn’t mean that we are in constant fear of damnation.

Really? Then what does “fear and trembling” mean to you?

Christ has left his Church with the means of reconciliation (John 20:21-23).

Yet the Apostle Paul tells us that those who believe are already reconciled to God through the death of His Son (Rom. 5:8-11). According to Scripture reconciliation was the work of the Son on the cross, not a task left by Jesus yet to be accomplished by His Apostles. In fact, Christ committed to them the “word of reconciliation” (1 Cor. 15:19), not the task of reconciling, which was proclaimed through the preaching of the message of the cross and preserved in Divinely inspired Scriptures for all subsequent generations to know. It was never their mission nor their power to reconcile anyone to God.

I’m quite content to abide by the decisions of the apostles and their successors.

That of course is your choice.

After all, it was to them that Christ said “and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:30).

Point being?

 

[Nana_Rose]

Can someone who believes OSAS still please address the passages where there seems to be (at least to me) a point at which one would be “cut off” or not “inherit” the kingdom because of their sin. In these passages the message is to Christians, not the unsaved. I also do not understand then why Christ would give the power to “bind and loosen” to the Apostles were it not necessary. If the cross was sufficient for everyone and all time then why was this power granted? However it seems very clear from the Bible that while we continue to “work out our salvation” we also can go far enough in our sin to lose it. For example the parable of Sower. Some of these heard and embraced the Word and then walked away. Or chapter 15 in John’s Gospel on the Vine and the Branches. Thank you.

 

[deb1]

apophasis:

Then what does “fear and trembling” mean to you?

It means that he/she is following scripture, Philippians 2:12, exactly. We are instructed to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

In order for the bible to be infallible, it has to not contradict itself. You can’t ignore verses but you have to find some way that they all compliment one another.

 

[sandusky]

deb1:

Yes, I believe that Jesus is needed for the forgiveness of sins but I do think that your biblical passage could be used by a person of Jewish faith to prove that Jesus isn’t needed.

Hi deb.

I know what you are saying, and I agree; a Jew could use that verse to attempt to disprove the necessity of Christ, but he wouldn’t convince you or me.

deb1:

My hubby is of Jewish descent and I once read a book by an Orthodox Rabbi who attempted to counter Christian prostelyzing of Jewish people. One of his points was that the Jewish religion has always taught that God can forgive a person. He used passages from the bible such as are in Jeremiah and, I am pretty certain, the passage that you quoted. Because of my reading of this book I just found it interesting that you used this particular biblical passage.

God can, and does forgive; what he says in the part that I bolded and underlined is true; I agree with his statement, and I’m certain that you do too. The rub, for the Jew, has to do with the basis of that forgiveness. You and I agree that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is the basis of God’s forgiveness of sin; Christ’s sacrifice satisfies God’s justice. The Jew would disagree with us.

When given an opportunity to witness to a Jew, I start in Gen 3:15, and ask him to read it. I ask what happens to someone when his head is crushed? And explain that Satan, through his seed (sinful men) is prophesied to kill this coming promised seed; that verse, coupled with the preceding verses explaining Adam’s fall, is what the rest of the scripture, O.T. and N.T. is all about: The sinfulness of man, and the one promised to come and remove that guilt of man’s sin. From there, I would take him on an excursion through the O.T. looking at prophesies pointing to the one promised in Gen 3, and in the N.T. show him how the Christ fulfilled those promises.

Maybe he’d listen; maybe he wouldn’t.

deb1:

If you need to know the name of the book, give me a few days and I will try and refind it. I read a lot and have boxes of books that I would have to go through.

Thank you; that’s very thoughtful. I would like to know the title.

 

[sandusky]

Nana Rose:

Can someone who believes OSAS still please address the passages where there seems to be (at least to me) a point at which one would be “cut off” or not “inherit” the kingdom because of their sin. In these passages the message is to Christians, not the unsaved.

OSAS comes from the doctrine of the perseverance of true believers, or as I prefer to phrase it, “God’s perseverance of the saints.” It does not mean that every churchgoer, or every church member is certain to persevere to the end of his/her faith. It does not mean that everyone who has given a public profession of faith is secure, or that all who seem to be true believers will never fall away from the faith; that is the point of the parable of the sower.

What it does mean is this: those who have a true faith can lose that faith neither totally, nor finally; that is because perseverance is not based on the will or strength of the believer, but on the promise of God, and His faithfulness to that promise. There are three types of common objections to this: Admonitions/exhortations to continue in the faith (Mt 10:22; Jn 8:31; Jn 15:5; 1 Cor 16:13; Heb 3:14, etc); warnings against apostasy (Col 1:21-23; Heb 2:1; 2 Pet 3:17, etc.); cases of apostasy (Lk 8; 1 Jn 2:19, etc).

Those passage do not overthrow the doctrine, but warn one against the misunderstanding of it, and underscore a believer’s part in perseverance. God is not antinomian, neither should the believer be antinomian. Those passages also remind the believer that God, in persevering him, uses means.

Here is an illustration: In the story of Paul’s shipwreck in Acts 27, when it seemed certain that the ship in which they were sailing was going to be wrecked by the storm, Paul told the others that an angel had appeared to him and informed him that none of them would be lost. As the ship came closer to land, some sailors tried to flee in a lifeboat, but Paul told the centurion, “Unless these men stay with the ship, you cannot be saved.” The certainty of their deliverance was dependant upon the means.

Some of the means God uses in persevering believers are exhortations, threats, and promises of His word.
Nana Rose:

I also do not understand then why Christ would give the power to “bind and loosen” to the Apostles were it not necessary. If the cross was sufficient for everyone and all time then why was this power granted? However it seems very clear from the Bible that while we continue to “work out our salvation” we also can go far enough in our sin to lose it.

The binding and loosing of sins is the basis of your sacrament of reconciliation. I think those verses in John speak to the proclamation of the Gospel, and not about auricular confession to a priest. I have discussed this at other places on the forum, and will just say that we disagree on the meaning of John’s binding and loosing passage.
Nana Rose:

For example the parable of Sower. Some of these heard and embraced the Word and then walked away. Or chapter 15 in John’s Gospel on the Vine and the Branches. Thank you.

The point of the parable of the sower in Lk 8 is this: 4 types of believers with four types of belief. Three of those are not “true” belief. True belief is exhibited only by the last person:

Luke 8:15
15 “But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

The verses that speak to the eternal security of the believer are as strong, if not stronger, than the exhortations, and threats of the consequences of falling away.

I spoke about Jn 15:6 on another thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=75543&page=4&pp=361

 

[Nana_Rose]

Thank you for taking time to answer Sandusky.

 

[sandusky]

Nana Rose:

Thank you for taking time to answer Sandusky.

My pleasure, Nana Rose. :tiphat:

 

[apophasis]

deb1:

It means that he/she is following scripture, Philippians 2:12, exactly. We are instructed to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

So then you’re saying the Scriptures cause you to fear and tremble? From what in Scripture are you continually fearing and trembling? Is this what the Scriptures teach regarding the believer’s relationship with Christ? At that time Jesus answered and said, “I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes. Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in Thy sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My load is light.” (Matt. 11:25-30)From this I don’t get “come to Me and be fearful and tremble.” Do you? Just prior to His sacrificial death for the sins of the world He said to those whom He prepared to take the “good news” (gospel) message of salvation through faith in Him:“Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world
gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.” (John 14:27)As for Phil. 2:12 it is notoriously misunderstood. Paul is addressing the church at Philippi corporately, not individually. And He most certainly is not telling them to work “for” their salvation. But they were to work “out” (or outwardly) the salvation that was theirs through receiving the message of salvation through Christ crucified. In Paul’s absence the Philippian church was to, katergazomai (Greek, “keep on working out,” continuous present) the deliverance of the church into a state of Christian maturity. “Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression for a humble frame of mind as he expresses in Phil. 2:3 (see also 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5).

There are plenty of passages in Scripture that warn against apostasy. Especially the introduction of erroneous doctrines that destroy the message of “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). Teachings of men which lead men away from the cross and what God accomplished there for us. Those who fail to understand the cross approach the Scriptures with a legalistic mind-set and invariably gravitate to the warning passages and thereby inaccurately build their doctrines of salvation (soteriology) upon them causing the faith to be man-centered rather and Christ-centered. Works oriented rather than grace oriented."…having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Col. 2:14). Here is what Paul meant when he wrote to the Philippians to continually work outwardly their salvation:“Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:17-21).This isn’t a letter by Paul warning them to be fear and tremble for losing their salvation. But to press forward in love toward one another, looking forward to the glories to follow which are theirs in Christ.

 

[apophasis]

Nana Rose:

For example the parable of Sower. Some of these heard and embraced the Word and then walked away. Or chapter 15 in John’s Gospel on the Vine and the Branches. Thank you.

Please see my message to Deb1 for some background. John 15:1-7 is an allegory which Jesus presented to His chosen disciples who would be responsible for taking to the world the message of the cross, which He was about to endure, and salvation which comes through faith in Him (John 3:14-18). It’s an allegory concerning the importance of His relationship to them and theirs to Him after His resurrection and bodily ascension back into glory (a spiritual principle that applies to individual believers and the corporate Church, as well). Only by abiding in Him (the true Vine) could they (the branches) be assured of producing much fruit (see John 15:16). Branches cannot produce fruit on their own, their life is in the vine.

(The allegory is not a doctrinal treatise on salvation but presents an important spiritual, relationship principle between Christ and His Church. Doctrinal expositions concerning salvation based on the sacrificial death and resurrection of Christ are found in the Epistles, especially Paul’s.)

When pruning a vine to produce much fruit two principles are generally observed: all dead wood must be ruthlessly removed and the live wood cut back drastically. Dead wood is hazardous to the living branches because it harbors insects and disease, even causing the vine to rot, not to mention being unproductive and unsightly. Live wood is trimmed back to prevent heavy growth which causes the life of the vine to go into the wood rather than the fruit. In this allegory Christ is saying that God (the vinedresser) will always be active in their lives (and that of the Church), constantly cutting out the dead wood and drastically trimming back the living wood for the purpose of producing fruit according to His desire.

From a Protestant’s point of view the Reformation certainly was a time when God pruned His vinyard using both principles to accomplish the task: Trimming back the living wood and removing the dead in order to produce His desired fruit. As a result truths such as salvation/justification by grace through faith in Christ alone; the authority of Scriptures; and the reality that every believer in Christ possesses eternal life; were once again made evident to the Church, according to the Scriptures.

 

[deb1]

Sandusky,

To avoid sorting through boxes of books, I did an internet search and I am almost certain that this is the book that I referred to in an earlier post.

judaism.com/display.asp?nt=DH&keyword=jesus&itemtype=Books&etn=EIHAE

I have to forewarn you that, if my memory is correct, this book is almost antiChristian or at least, pretty harsh. It might be useful to read if you are planning on witnessing to Orthodox Jews, though.

 

[sandusky]

deb1:

Sandusky,

To avoid sorting through boxes of books, I did an internet search and I am almost certain that this is the book that I referred to in an earlier post.

judaism.com/display.asp?nt=DH&keyword=jesus&itemtype=Books&etn=EIHAE

I have to forewarn you that, if my memory is correct, this book is almost antiChristian or at least, pretty harsh. It might be useful to read if you are planning on witnessing to Orthodox Jews, though.

Thanks Deb. I’ll take a look; I can take harsh; been takin’ it for years.

 

[deb1]

apophasis:

So then you’re saying the Scriptures cause you to fear and tremble? From what in Scripture are you continually fearing and trembling? Is this what the Scriptures teach regarding the believer’s relationship with Christ?At that time Jesus answered and said, “I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes. Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in Thy sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My load is light.” (Matt. 11:25-30)From this I don’t get “come to Me and be fearful and tremble.” Do you? Just prior to His sacrificial death for the sins of the world He said to those whom He prepared to take the “good news” (gospel) message of salvation through faith in Him:"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world

gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful." (John 14:27)
As for Phil. 2:12 it is notoriously misunderstood. Paul is addressing the church at Philippi corporately, not individually. And He most certainly is not telling them to work “for” their salvation. But they were to work “out” (or outwardly) the salvation that was theirs through receiving the message of salvation through Christ crucified. In Paul’s absence the Philippian church was to, katergazomai (Greek, “keep on working out,” continuous present) the deliverance of the church into a state of Christian maturity. “Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression for a humble frame of mind as he expresses in Phil. 2:3 (see also 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5).

There are plenty of passages in Scripture that warn against apostasy. Especially the introduction of erroneous doctrines that destroy the message of “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). Teachings of men which lead men away from the cross and what God accomplished there for us. Those who fail to understand the cross approach the Scriptures with a legalistic mind-set and invariably gravitate to the warning passages and thereby inaccurately build their doctrines of salvation (soteriology) upon them causing the faith to be man-centered rather and Christ-centered. Works oriented rather than grace oriented."…having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).Here is what Paul meant when he wrote to the Philippians to continually work outwardly their salvation:“Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:17-21).This isn’t a letter by Paul warning them to be fear and tremble for losing their salvation. But to press forward in love toward one another, looking forward to the glories to follow which are theirs in Christ.

 

[deb1]

apophasis:

So then you’re saying the Scriptures cause you to fear and tremble? From what in Scripture are you continually fearing and trembling? Is this what the Scriptures teach regarding the believer’s relationship with Christ?

.

No, the Scripture does not make me fear and tremble but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the we must follow all of scripture not just the portions that agree with our theology or make us feel good. Actually, I have great awe and joy over my salvation but I realize that I must work with God’s grace to retain my salvation. This is what the verse means.

 

[deb1]

apophasis:

As for Phil. 2:12 it is notoriously misunderstood. Paul is addressing the church at Philippi corporately, not individually. And He most certainly is not telling them to work “for” their salvation. But they were to work “out” (or outwardly) the salvation that was theirs through receiving the message of salvation through Christ crucified. In Paul’s absence the Philippian church was to, katergazomai (Greek, “keep on working out,” continuous present) the deliverance of the church into a state of Christian maturity. “Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression for a humble frame of mind as he expresses in Phil. 2:3 (see also 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5).

.

Well, you are preaching to the choir here. Catholics don’t believe that their works earn salvation. I haven’t read anything on this forum or in Catholic literature to suggest that Philipians 2:15 is ever used to indicate salvation based on works.

 

[deb1]

apophasis:

From a Protestant’s point of view the Reformation certainly was a time when God pruned His vinyard using both principles to accomplish the task: Trimming back the living wood and removing the dead in order to produce His desired fruit. As a result truths such as salvation/justification by grace through faith in Christ alone; the authority of Scriptures; and the reality that every believer in Christ possesses eternal life; were once again made evident to the Church, according to the Scriptures.

Apparently, you are confused about Catholic belief. Catholic, too, believe that grace is a free, unmerited gift of God and that it is through faith that we are saved. We also believe in the authority of Scripture. In fact, coming from a Protestant background myself, I can assure you that Catholicism is very rooted in scripture.

What we are debating in this thread is once saved, always saved.