Once Upon a Time There Was Communion in the Hand

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The bolded statement above is an outright falsehood. I replied to a similar statement of yours in another thread in which you claimed that the majority of Catholics did not believe in the Real Presence. In that reply, I posted a link to a CARA poll taken in 2008 that refuted this claim. My post was shot down by another poster who said that the poll was basically meaningless since most Catholics did not attend Mass on a regular basis. I did agree that the poll was taking into account mainly those Catholics who do attend Mass at least once in awhile and that the beliefs of those Catholics who are regular Sundays attendees does not reflect on all other Catholics.
Now you have gone even further by claiming that the majority of people who do attend Sunday Mass do not believe in the Real Presence. What an incredible leap of hyperbole! What omniscience you have been gifted with to know what is in the hearts of millions of faithful Catholics! Once again I am posting what the CARA poll found. This was an officially sanctioned poll by the USSCB with the focus on the sacramental life of the Church and belief in the sacraments. Not a poll taken by a newspaper. I have little hope that you will pay any attention since you seem to be oblivious to any facts that do not support your own highly prejudicial and judgemental point of view.

cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html
Coupled with that was an interesting response by one of the apologists with Catholic answers that got at the heart of the other (non CARA) polls that have been taken, and showed that the issue is not non-beliefe, but lack of education as to the specific theological reasoning and use of terms. People can and do truly ebelieve that Christ is present in the Eucharist and have no training in the term “transubstantiation”, and cannot recognize the official teaching. But guess what -s so did millions upon millions of Catholics who came before the Church officially pronounced how that happened. Transubstantiation is a term of Scholastic philosophy, which did not occur until the middle ages. Prior to that, people accepted the truth without having a name for it. And given the move from a doctrinally based catechesis to one in which doctrine was largely ignored and minimized, Catholics who grew up after Vatican 2 have had little training if any in how the hsot becomes the Eucharist; they can’t tell you the offical answer, but they still believe.

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My pompous attitude? I am not the one questioning the Pope and the bishops in council. It would appear that you do not read very well, or only selectively. The attitude I was addressing was the naysayer about the OF - we have it and we have 24 hour perpetual adoration, and the vast majority of people receive in the hand. You really don’t get it, do you. We haev a pompous attitutde? Nope, we have 15 years of perpetual adoration. Get a clue. Contrary to preconceived notions based on nothing more than conjecture, we have an attitude of reverence and that is not in spite of the OF, but because of it. But then, because you already have your mind already made up, why would I want to go and confuse you with facts? Shame on me…
Jo removed my post in reply to yours, earlier in the thread. I won’t question why, and I won’t reply to this post of yours either. Perhaps you missed Jo’s post right above yours. Let’s just honor her decision and drop it.
 
Or… there will be a melding of the 2 - BXVI has alluded to this in his discussions of hermeneutic … I agree with you the experiment in common ground with Protestants
A.K.A as NO is doomed…
I’m not sure there will be a merging of the two. The Novus Ordo Missae is a trimmed down version of the TLM. There is really nothing in the NO missal that would add to or improve the TLM.

And the fate of the NO ? Well, folks probably get sick of me posting this, but it says it all. Every fear of the good Cardinal has come to pass…
“In recent times, even in materialist North America, the growth of the Church was magnificent with the liturgy being kept in Latin. The attempts of the Protestants have failed, and Protestantism uses the vernacular. We ask again: Why the change, especially since changes in this matter involve many difficulties and great dangers? All of us here at the Council can recall the fundamental changes in the meaning of words in common use. Thus it follows that if the Sacred Liturgy were in the vernacular, the immutability of doctrine would be endangered.
The introduction of the vernacular should be separated from the action of the Mass. The Mass must remain as it is. Grave changes in the liturgy introduce grave changes in dogmata.”
-James Cardinal McIntyre addressing the Second Vatican Council.
 
Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?

olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml
since you want to quote statistics, perhaps you can explain why Mass attendance was falling off before Vatican 2? In 1958 about 75% attended weekly; by the end of Vatican 2 and before the ink was dry on the documents, and before the changes in the Mass, attendance was already down to 67% and continued on a rather shallow slope until aobut 2000, where it was at 33%, then peaking upwards to about 39% within several months of 9/11, then about 8 months later down to 35 % May, 2002, and then by Septemeber 2004 down to 31%.

But interestingly, the group that supposedly should show the sharpest drop off, if changes to the Mass were the instigator, would be those who were born pre-Vatican 2; however, they report the highest level of weekly Mass attendance.

You miss the two most impactful changes; the change in catechesis, which impacted those born after Vatican 2, and more so the young (those ages 31 - 43 attend regularly - 22%; those 18-30, 21%). the other change? Secularization of society.
 
By your logic, we would have to get rid of all the forms of the Eastern rite liturgies. You seem to be bothered by the two forms of the Roman rite; most people are not. Most people also have made little or no move to the EF, which shows nothing at all about its worthiness, utility, history, attractiveness to some, revenrence, tradition over time, sense of the sacred, emphasis on sacrifice, or anything else. The tremendous move to the EF which was widely predictied simply is not happening.
Guess not, seeing as though some of the local powers that be have continued the suppression of the Gregorian Rite despite the SC. And I don’t have any comment on the recent phenomenon of people asking why those discussing Latin Rite-specific issues are not mentioning the Eastern Rites.
Further, you confuse the word “unity” with the word “uniformity”. The Church, starting with Pius 12th, has moved to encourage non-uniformity, if you will, in that it has pushed the Eastern rites to de-latinize their liturgies and return to their roots.
There is that crazy phenomenon again. What is your point ? What does the doings of the Eastern Rites have to do with the Latin Rite ? You proposing we de-latinize Rome ?
Anyone who is paying attention to what has been officially said from Rome can see that over time, there is a significant possiblity that both the EF and the OF may pick up some parts from the other; and anyone who pays attention to Rome can see that it will take a long time, as we measure time (as opposed to how the Church measures time) for this to occur.
People who prefer the OF are not going around and saying the EF has to go, or that it has to be modified. they simply don’t go to the EF on a regular basis, and most of them don’t go to it at all. And it is only some of those who go to the EF on a regular basis that seem to think that the vast majority of people are wrong, and that what they prefer needs to be done away with.
The TLM may never be abrogated, but there is also nothing anywhere that says that it cannot be modifed, and in fact over time it has been modified - and we will both grant that the modifications were nowhere near as long and wide as the change of the EF to the OF. Those who think that the EF is sacrosanctly cast in stone are simply fooling themselves.
Where can one find these official statements ? I read the Summorum Pontificum. Where are these other comments to be found ?
 
What I find amazing is how quickly the TLM is Spreading and the interest in being able to Offer it among the new priests. The Archdiocese of Portland is ordaning a young priest by the name of Fr.Erik, he was considering the FSSP But he decided the Arch Diocese of Portland needed him More. His first mass sadly will be the OF, But a very reverent OF on Corpus Christi. The Chancery Office has cracked down a few times on my parish for trying to celebrate Ad Orientam etc. I think they like pretending the Friars don’t exist 😃
 
The TLM may have not been abrogated but it certainly can be. There’s nothing that prevents that either. The question, I think, revolves around the language used by Paul VI in imposing the NO-- it would actually be good to see an explanation of that.
Well, he’s dead and so is Bugnini ,GRTS’s. Don’t know if Fr Joe is still with us, but he’d be the one to ask. But seeing as though he said this (before the SP), I’m not sure he’d offer much support.
Father Joseph Gelineau SJ whose credentials for commenting on the New Mass could scarcely be more authoritative. Fr Gelineau was one of the most influential of Archbishop Bugnini’s Consilium which was charged with composing the New Mass after Vatican II. He was described by the Archbishop as one of “the great masters of the international liturgical world” (The Reform of the Liturgy, page 221). Archbishop Bugnini, it will be recalled, was the principal architect of the Novus Ordo.
In his book Demain la Liturgie (The Liturgy Tomorrow), Fr Gelineau observes: “Let those, who, like myself have known and sung a Latin Gregorian High Mass remember it if they can. Let them compare it with the Mass that we now have. Not only the words, the melodies, and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists (Le Rite Romain tel que nous l’avons connu n’existe plus). It has been destroyed (il est détruit)” (pages 9-10).ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/feb2005p15_1853.html
As we now see, the TLM hasn’t been destroyed. And imo, it never will be.
 
There seems to be a mindset that rules once in place, by their very existence, cannot be changed. History shows otherwise.
Your argument isn’t based on whether CITH is proper or not. All you are doing is citing red herrings and strawmen. If your argument is based on what the earliest Christians do you want all their early customs and traditions too?
 
in the early days of the church a piece of bread and a sip of wine sufficed to fulfill the requirement of communion…then wafers were developed…and some were placed into the palm of the hands…but due to black masses and the life…where the host was subjected to evil indecencies the practice of on the tongue was returned so as to prevent such abuses. Many bad things happened after Vat.2…most not prescribed at all by the council…slowly order is being restored…amen and amen
 
Or… there will be a melding of the 2 - BXVI has alluded to this in his discussions of hermeneutic … I agree with you the experiment in common ground with Protestants
Pope Benedict stated in his preface to Spirit of the Liturgy that there is no question of going back to the way things were before liturgical changes. Those that think the current Mass will disappear and be replaced by the TLM do not have the Holy Father doing anything but denying that possibility. Issues like the reception of communion, orientation of the priest and sign of peace may well change. However, there is not evidence that the allowing of the TLM was a prelude for its replacement as the Mass of the Roman Rite.

If and when we do change these specific parts of the liturgy, like communion in the hand, I would trust that all who here so vigourously defend their right to it (myself included) will be equally gracious and obedient in accepting the change.
 
We are definitely stuck with the NO for awhile, perhaps permanently. Based on how much protesting the Austrian bishops inflicted on our Holy Father over the latest promotion I can’t imagine what would happen if Bugnini’s masterpiece was put on the shelf. My hope is the TLM gets equal time on Sunday and the results will speak for themselves. Actually, my dream is the NO on Saturday night a low Mass early Sunday and high/sung Mass at eleven, but I doubt I’ll live long enough to see it.
 
I’m not sure there will be a merging of the two. The Novus Ordo Missae is a trimmed down version of the TLM. There is really nothing in the NO missal that would add to or improve the TLM.

And the fate of the NO ? Well, folks probably get sick of me posting this, but it says it all. Every fear of the good Cardinal has come to pass…
excellent quote of the cardinal - spot on!! Regarding merging of the two- ; how about 1 reading - Epistle and Gospel if not collect ] in the vernacular from a good approved translation - also a more defined time of silence post communion as part of the ablutions for thanksgiving, contrition,adoration, and supplication to name 2 possibilities - not sure where BXVI sees this going or wants to take it- I just know he has verbalized a vision of a melded rite- I agree, again with you , that 2 will not survive . the merge won’t happen in my lifetime i’m 58] ; we’ve lost a full generation and a half to this awful Pauline/ Bugnnini experiment; my 14 yr old prefers th eLTM to the NO : young people are flocking with their little ones to our LTM - Great is the Holy Ghost! ad multos annos ad BXVI
 
I’m not sure there will be a merging of the two. The Novus Ordo Missae is a trimmed down version of the TLM. There is really nothing in the NO missal that would add to or improve the TLM.

And the fate of the NO ? Well, folks probably get sick of me posting this, but it says it all. Every fear of the good Cardinal has come to pass…
Well, for starters, the EF would be enhanced if it followed the OF in the increase in Scripture readings.

We have two sources of our faith - Scripture and Tradition. Adding more Scripture to the EF certainly is not going to harm the EF or those who attend.
 
Your argument isn’t based on whether CITH is proper or not. All you are doing is citing red herrings and strawmen. If your argument is based on what the earliest Christians do you want all their early customs and traditions too?
Given that the history of Communion in the hand has a continual place in the Catholic Church, one is a fool to argue that it has no place in the Catholic Church. The argument then gets down to whether or not it has a place in the Roman rite. I cite no red herrings or strawmen; you simply are stuck on an issue (to follow). You argue that it is either irreverant, or less reverant, or somehow illegal, immoral, illicit, or otherwise wrong. I don’t know what your experience has been, nor do I know how skewed your observations are by your innate prejudice against it. It may be that you are in a diocese that is not in general very reverant. I would say that my archdiocese is generally reverant; if I hunt around I can find parishes that honor the GIRM more in their choice of ignoring passages, but the great majority of parishes are not experimental. And I have been seeing people receive Communion since before Vatican 2, and the reverance of those who receive in the hand is in the great majority what one would hope for. there are some who are casual about Communion, and having been an altar boy pre-Vatican 2, it was my observation then that some were casual back then when all knelt to receive, and only received on the tongue. No, we mostly do not have Communion rails out here, and yes, most receive in the hand.

As to your question: no, I do not put the issue to the earliest Church, so no, we do not need to discuss adapting other things from the earliest Church. In this thread there has been information that you either have not read or you choose to ignore. Communion in the hand in the Roman rite can be traced from earliest comments about it, in the range of the 3rd to 4th century, into the 10th century to some minor degree. And it has a continuous history within the Catholic, but not Roman, rite. So whether you think it is propoer or not, history clearly indicates that it has been and continues to be proper. The issue isn’t whether or not it is proper; the issue is you don’t like it.

And that, from reading you comments, has to do with the fact that the Dutch bishops did it without permission (or apparently without permission), and that the indult is somehow tainted by that fact.

The bishops, if they are still alive, can go to the Sacrament of Reconcilliation; if not, I entrust them to God’s mercy. Other than that, being an act of disobedience does not taint Communion in the hand in and of itself. I would lay dollars to donuts that if we look at the entire history of the Church, we could find other instances of priests and/or bishops doing something that was out of sync with how Rome did it, and subsequently causing a change in how Rome did it. Your attachment to the issue of this starting without permission leaves one the conclusion that Rome is incapable of protecting the Eucharist. Again, given that there is continual history of Communion in the hand in the Church, I find such a conclusion doesn’t hold water.

And if you want an example, the Sacrament of Reconcilliation was widely practiced by Rome as a public confession, and infrequent (at one point it got down to once in a life time) and it was the Irish monks who changed that to a private confession and frequent. Seems that violated a general practice if not a specific law, and we seem the better for that.

Whether or not Communion in the hand will continue in the Roman rite is pure speculation. It is most certainly widely practiced. Whether it is more reverant than Communion on the tongue is a matter first of catechesis, and then further a matter of personal feelings as opposed to any ontological difference. As I have noted, in the Roman rite we kneel during the Eucharistic prayer; and in the US we kneel longer than in the rest of the Roman rite, and in at least one Byzantine rite they stand. That is not a “one is better than the other” issue, it is primarily a cultural issue. So your constant comeback to lack of reverance also doesn’t carry water.

Ultimately I don’t have a dog in the fight. If Rome says tomorrow all are to receive on the tongue, then fine, all will do so and I will do so and not complain. I did so as a child; it is not exactly new. But I sincerely doubt this is going to change any time soon. I would hope you are not holding your breath. If you are, be sure to pick come colors to wear that go with blue.
 
Ultimately I don’t have a dog in the fight. If Rome says tomorrow all are to receive on the tongue, then fine, all will do so and I will do so and not complain. I did so as a child; it is not exactly new.
I’m in exactly the same boat.

And of course, if it was to change tomorrow, then those receiving it without reverence in the hand today would be doing so on their knees and on the tongue tomorrow. Lord knows there was plenty of that pre-Vatican II, where I saw the same glazed-over looks as an altar boy that I sometimes see today as an EMHC.

This idea that positions are objectively more or less reverent than each other, apart from the value a culture gives them, is just hard to understand.
 
I find it disturbing that our rite now contains a goodly number of novelties and alterations. Not just one, or two, but a collection.

In the past, CITH may have existed in a particular rite, (and then dropped) but not EMCs, female altar servers, the priest versus-populum, stringed intruments, concelebration and CITH all together. And that’s just off the top of my head.

Can you see where this is going? In fact, where it has already arrived? A rite turned in on itself, a closed circle of the priest and the congregation facing each other, with mundane additions coming in yearly.

And just to pervert it even further, kiddie drawings on the altar (at a funeral, even, which I went to recently). Get a plain-clothes, bare-headed ex-nun to read the epistle, even better. Thank everyone for contributing to a lovely service, except the Prisoner in the tabernacle (which has been moved).

[Sarcasm] That’ll show those old fogies. 2000 years of careful development? Saintly priests trembling as they faced a sacred mystery? Pah! We know better! Turn it back to front! Because a university has awarded us a theological degree. That makes us wise.

Let me stand tall and receive the Host in my hand, because we’re all God’s anointed (or something). Some other rite is doing it, or has done it 1500 years ago, so we must do it too. [You can’t say nay, we have an indult (nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah nyah)].

The changes haven’t worked? The ignorant faithful refusing to be ‘enthused’ by them? No vocations, closing parishes, the badly-taught faithful co-habiting and staying at home in bed of a Sunday? Then the answer must be …

More change!

Sing
with me now “Koombya, m’lord, koomboya …”
 
Well, for starters, the EF would be enhanced if it followed the OF in the increase in Scripture readings.

We have two sources of our faith - Scripture and Tradition. Adding more Scripture to the EF certainly is not going to harm the EF or those who attend.
But a 1 yr cycle of the Readings allow for some familiarity vs. a 3 yr cycle. I and mother churches’ tradition for @1500 years thought/ think there is some advantage to the repetition related to familiarity too! and recall.

Scripture and commentary by the fathers and doctors should be taught- we agree - and be a lifelong study.
 
Guess not, seeing as though some of the local powers that be have continued the suppression of the Gregorian Rite despite the SC. And I don’t have any comment on the recent phenomenon of people asking why those discussing Latin Rite-specific issues are not mentioning the Eastern Rites.

There is that crazy phenomenon again. What is your point ? What does the doings of the Eastern Rites have to do with the Latin Rite ? You proposing we de-latinize Rome ?

Where can one find these official statements ? I read the Summorum Pontificum. Where are these other comments to be found ?
 
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