One brave women who said NO to Muhammed.

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cathopologist said:
If it was a hug, then i can understand, but handshakes? Seriously Amy, even the Muslim women of Singapore don’t have problems with shaking the hands of any man. It does not implicate anything intimate or sexual.

Most of all, aren’t you an American? I thought handshakes with the opposite sex are quite the norm there. Heck, its the norm here also.🤷
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cathopologist, Sis Amy is right. you do not understand the beauty of the Islamic system at all. It is very useful that a man not even touch any unrelated lady. I can only give one example of a young friend of mine with me in England. he was very popular with the young girls. But he had a secret which I found out very late.

he never touched any girl and did not allow them to touch him. So what is the end result? It is all clean. Do you understand?

The Muslims do not even look at any unrelated woman. Men may see a passing woman once. But no more. It is said for men, “Once is for you, the other (look) is upon you.” That is not any legislated law from any parliament. It is God given law. It protects us.

Our prophet used to take the pledge of Bay’at from men by holding the hand. But when he took any pledge from a woman, he never touched her. Just kept his hand well above her hand and took the pledge. That is Sunnat for us all and we follow it. We should do.
 
planten said:
cathopologist, Sis Amy is right. you do not understand the beauty of the Islamic system at all. It is very useful that a man not even touch any unrelated lady.
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Correct. I do not think i will understand the minds of fundamentalists. But if it makes you happy… At least i’m glad Muslim women and men here are not as eccentric as Muslims from other countries.
planten said:
I can only give one example of a young friend of mine with me in England. he was very popular with the young girls. But he had a secret which I found out very late.

he never touched any girl and did not allow them to touch him. So what is the end result? It is all clean. Do you understand?
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No, i do not think i quite understand your secret example.
planten said:
The Muslims do not even look at any unrelated woman. Men may see a passing woman once. But no more. It is said for men, “Once is for you, the other (look) is upon you.” That is not any legislated law from any parliament. It is God given law. It protects us.
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Remember planten, i have many Muslim friends i used to hang out with during my younger days - and i know whenever they ‘checkout’ a woman.
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Our prophet used to take the pledge of Bay’at from men by holding the hand. But when he took any pledge from a woman, he never touched her. Just kept his hand well above her hand and took the pledge. That is Sunnat for us all and we follow it. We should do.
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He never touched women… Right.
 
cathopologist said:
Correct. I do not think i will understand the minds of fundamentalists. But if it makes you happy… At least i’m glad Muslim women and men here are not as eccentric as Muslims from other countries.

No, i do not think i quite understand your secret example.
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**I have told you the correct principle. If some men do not know it or do not follow it that is not my problem.
The secret had not been told. I called it a secret because he never told me. But I observed that he was very friendly, smiling, laughing with every one all the time. What went on when no one was near him with some girl, that could not be seen. But it later came to my knowledge and I was surprised at his goodness. I learnt about his method (modus operandi) after a few years. So I had great respect for him. He is still a good friend.

I cannot explain it any more, please.**
Remember planten, i have many Muslim friends i used to hang out with during my younger days - and i know whenever they ‘checkout’ a woman.

He never touched women… Right.
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Please be kind. To your last sentence add “unrelated” as it had been mentioned in my post. So read it is “The prophet never touched the unrelated women”. That word touching is the literal word.
cathopologist, please keep the good words of the moderator in mind before writing anything. Try to bring forth somethign good from your bible.
 
STOP POSTING SOURCES THAT HAVE NO CREDIBILITY !!!

Sahih muslim and bukhari are horrible references, and not all muslims believe in these sayings.

I dont source the book of Mormon to argue with christians do I?
 
Sister_Amy said:
When did women achieve the right to vote? The right to own property? These rights aren’t protected for women by being Christian, that’s for sure. The right to a divorce is one right that the Catholic church still hasn’t granted women. (Or men, for that matter, though I tend to think it’s women who suffer more for it.)
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Seems you are looking at the speck on anothers eye when you can’t see the logged that has blinded you.

Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been appointed (cursed)on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve’s transgression in paradise.
  1. Menstruation
  2. Childbirth
  3. Separation from father and mother and marriage to a stranger
  4. Pregnancy
  5. Not having control over her own person
  6. A lesser share in inheritance
  7. Her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce.
  8. It being lawful for man to have 4 wives but for a woman to have only 1 husband.
  9. The fact that she must stay secluded in the house
  10. The fact that she must keep her head covered inside the house.
  11. The fact that 2 women’s testimonies have to be set against the testimony of one man.
  12. The fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative.
  13. The fact that men take part in Friday and feast day funerals while women do not.
  14. Disqualification for rulership and judgeship.
  15. The fact that merit has 1000 components, only one of which is attributable to women while 999 are attributed to men.
  16. The fact that if women are profligate they will be given only half as much torment as the rest of the community at the ressurection day.
  17. The fact that if their husbands die they must observe a waiting period of 4 months and 10 days before they remarry.
  18. The fact that if their husbands divorce them , they must observe a waiting period of 3 months or 3 menstrual periods before remarrying.
What women rights are you talking about? If it is being culturally practiced throughout your communities

http://www.vgsbooks.com/thumbnails/flags/israel_flag.jpg
 
trdchubi said:
Seems you are looking at the speck on anothers eye when you can’t see the logged that has blinded you.

Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been appointed (cursed)on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve’s transgression in paradise.
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Source?

(And most of those things, I wouldn’t call pains anyway–many are rights in fact that women aren’t granted in other religions.)
 
ralphinal said:
Interesting. Which ones are rights?
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LOL – first off, a bunch of them are lies, the exact opposite of the truth.

I.e., 5,6,7,9,10,12,13,14, and possibly 15 and 16. Those are lies.

A few here are rights, 1,2,6,7,13, 17, and 18. (I know I put 6,7, and 13 on both lists–there’s a reason why.)
 
Sister_Amy said:
LOL – first off, a bunch of them are lies, the exact opposite of the truth.

I.e., 5,6,7,9,10,12,13,14, and possibly 15 and 16. Those are lies.

A few here are rights, 1,2,6,7,13, 17, and 18. (I know I put 6,7, and 13 on both lists–there’s a reason why.)
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Ok, I can see how 13, 17, and 18 are rights. THose are easy.

If by childbirth, you mean motherhood, that is good. If you mean the pains of labor and carrying the child, I need more explination.

How Menstration and 6 and 7 are rights, I do not fully understand.

And I would like to see why 6 and 7 are on both lists.
🙂
 
Salaam/peace
trdchubi said:
Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been appointed (cursed)on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve’s transgression in paradise.
  1. Childbirth
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I doubt if he really said those. Even if he said so , we can’t accept as it goes against holy Quran. God does not say in Quran that child birth is a punishment .

Women’s Right in Islam - Modernision or ourdated?

By Dr. Zakir Naik

In Surah Al-Nisa Chapter 4, Verse 1 (4:1). It is stated, “Respect the Womb that bore you.”

the Prophet was once asked who amongst all the people was the most worthy of his respect and compassion . The Prophet (Pbuh) replied “your mother”; the man wanted to know who should be next, the Prophet (Pbuh) said “your mother”.

The man enquired, who next?, the Prophet (Pbuh) replied for the third time “your mother”, again the man asked who next? The Prophet (Pbuh) replied “your father”.

This means that 75% of love and respect goes to the mother and 25% to the father; that the better 3/4th goes to the mother and the remaining 1/4th to the father; or to put it in another way the gold medal goes to the mother and the father gets a consolation prize.

islamicvoice.com/october.97/wome.htm
 
ralphinal said:
Ok, I can see how 13, 17, and 18 are rights. THose are easy.

If by childbirth, you mean motherhood, that is good. If you mean the pains of labor and carrying the child, I need more explination.

How Menstration and 6 and 7 are rights, I do not fully understand.

And I would like to see why 6 and 7 are on both lists.
🙂
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Motherhood is a right, yes. A man cannot, for example, refuse to father a child with his wife.

13 is tricky. Women CAN and DO participate in Friday prayers, in Feast day prayers, and sometimes even in funerals. Which is why 13 was a lie. I also said 13 is a right because women don’t HAVE TO do these things (actually, women are supposed to participate in the “feast day” activities, even if they aren’t praying!). So it’s a right women have that they don’t have the same obligations. They are free to participate, but they don’t have to go every Friday like men do–because maybe they need to care for their children. So it’s a mercy for women.

Menstruation is a similar right–a menstruating woman is exempted from prayers and fasting while she is menstruating–so she gets kind of a break. Her husband is also not supposed to have intercourse during that time so she gets a chance to rest from that as well if she needs it. So menstruation can even be a right. (It’s also kind of painful and unpleasant, but there are rights associated with it, which is to what I was referring.)

Now 6 and 7 are interesting. About inheritance–a woman might receive more than a man inheritance so just saying “lesser share” is misleading. It depends also on the relation. A woman has the right to inheritance in Islam. No man can take away her right to inherit that specific amount, at least. And that money which she inherits is entirely discretionary–she can spend it on whatever she wants. The man who inherits must spend his money taking care of the family (in particular the women) so the woman doesn’t have to spend a penny to care for herself. I think that’s a right.

And now 7–the Catholic Church I know does not allow divorce, but Islam does. So if you can bear with me here. First off, 7 was a lie because a woman CAN initiate a divorce unlike what it said. And that is a right in itself, I think. If a woman finds herself with a husband who is not fulfilling his responsibilities or is in some way unpleasing to her, she is able to dissolve the marriage.

Does that explain it? 🙂
 
Sister_Amy said:
Motherhood is a right, yes. A man cannot, for example, refuse to father a child with his wife.

13 is tricky. Women CAN and DO participate in Friday prayers, in Feast day prayers, and sometimes even in funerals. Which is why 13 was a lie. I also said 13 is a right because women don’t HAVE TO do these things (actually, women are supposed to participate in the “feast day” activities, even if they aren’t praying!). So it’s a right women have that they don’t have the same obligations. They are free to participate, but they don’t have to go every Friday like men do–because maybe they need to care for their children. So it’s a mercy for women.

Menstruation is a similar right–a menstruating woman is exempted from prayers and fasting while she is menstruating–so she gets kind of a break. Her husband is also not supposed to have intercourse during that time so she gets a chance to rest from that as well if she needs it. So menstruation can even be a right. (It’s also kind of painful and unpleasant, but there are rights associated with it, which is to what I was referring.)

Now 6 and 7 are interesting. About inheritance–a woman might receive more than a man inheritance so just saying “lesser share” is misleading. It depends also on the relation. A woman has the right to inheritance in Islam. No man can take away her right to inherit that specific amount, at least. And that money which she inherits is entirely discretionary–she can spend it on whatever she wants. The man who inherits must spend his money taking care of the family (in particular the women) so the woman doesn’t have to spend a penny to care for herself. I think that’s a right.

And now 7–the Catholic Church I know does not allow divorce, but Islam does. So if you can bear with me here. First off, 7 was a lie because a woman CAN initiate a divorce unlike what it said. And that is a right in itself, I think. If a woman finds herself with a husband who is not fulfilling his responsibilities or is in some way unpleasing to her, she is able to dissolve the marriage.

Does that explain it? 🙂
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I think so.

Thank you.
 
You seem very confident that your faith really gives you,as a woman, your rights as a human being to live in freedom.

I read various Islamic essays written by muslim mostly residing in the free world. Their thoughts on women gave an impression that Islam has many good things for them. Only naive people will fall for that.

Muslims like you will defend the merciful and glorious treatment of women under Islam. However, you will never tell the true status of women in ‘real Islam’ in the Oppressed World.

Here is the source that you ask for. It came from the roots of Islam itself, Qur’an and hadith.

Menstruation is a disease…(quran2:222) 1

Menstruation is a defect in women for they cannot fast and pray during their periods… (Shahih Bukhari 3.31.172) 1

Divorce belongs to men and women have the idda…(Malik’s Muwatta 29.24.70) 4

If a man said to his wife ‘you are haram for me ‘ then it is counted as three pronouncements of divorce…(Malik’s Muwatta 29.1.6) 4

Rules on inheritance women get half of men… (quran 4:11-12) 6

A woman has to ransom herself to be free from her tyrannical husband; she can ransom herself from her husband for more than he gave her…(Malik’s Muwatta 29.10.32) 7

A man can take back dower if the woman divorces him…(Sunaan Abu Dawud 12.2220) 7

Four free women wives (some say nine) at a time and any number of slave girls are permitted (how many?)…(quran 4:11-124:3) 8

Women are to stay quietly at home and not to show their allurement…(quran 33:33)9

Women witness is half of men…(quran2:282) 11

A woman can’t travel a day’s journey without her mahram…(Shahih Muslim 7.3105) 12

People ruled by a woman will never be successful…(Shahih Bukhari 5.59.709) 14

Divorced women wait 3 monthly periods…(quran 2:228) 18

And How can this be?

Majority of women are in hell…( Shahih Bukhari 1.6.301)

Why?

Women should give charity and forgiveness because the majority of women will be in hell.(HA!!:confused:) The reasons are 1. women curse too much 2. they are ungrateful to their husbands 3.they are lacking in common sense 4. they are failing in religion 5. they rob the wisdom of the wise…(Shahih Muslim 1.0142)

Maybe Muslim Women and Sister Amy think about limiting your statements
As your faith condemns women who CANNOT discern the obvious.

And why are you degrade this way?

Women, slaves and camels are same; must seek Allah’s refuge from all these…(Sunaan Abu Dawud 11.2155)

A prayer is annulled by a passing woman, dog and a monkey…( Shahih Bukhari 1.9.490)
 
trdchubi said:
You seem very confident that your faith really gives you,as a woman, your rights as a human being to live in freedom.
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*“Something is rotten in the state of Islam. Perhaps not in the sacred texts nor even in the vast legal tradition. Muslims can debate among themselves whether the source of the problem lies in the religion itself. But the reality is beyond debate.”

“Muslim faith communities suffer from multiple personality disorder, applying one standard to the male and another to our female side. And we impose our double standards under the garb of tradition or sharia.”

“Perhaps the most obvious example of our double standards is in our domestic relations. Many Muslim men regularly beat their wives. Unlike their non-Muslim brothers, Muslim men don’t require excessive alcohol or narcotics in their system to beat their wives.”

"Muslim and ethnic language newspapers commonly read by Muslims rarely mention the issue. It is as if we are pretending the problem just doesn’t exist. Or worse still, it’s as if it isn’t even a problem. "

“Yet millions of Muslim mothers and sisters and daughters are living in hell on this earth.”*

eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=9596
 
trdchubi said:
You seem very confident that your faith really gives you,as a woman, your rights as a human being to live in freedom.

I read various Islamic essays written by muslim mostly residing in the free world. Their thoughts on women gave an impression that Islam has many good things for them. Only naive people will fall for that.

Muslims like you will defend the merciful and glorious treatment of women under Islam. However, you will never tell the true status of women in ‘real Islam’ in the Oppressed World.

Here is the source that you ask for. It came from the roots of Islam itself, Qur’an and hadith.
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I promise you that I’m more familiar with these than you. I promise. They don’t offend me because I understand them, despite how disgustingly you have twisted them. You’re not fooling me. 🙂

Now, you can call me naive. In fact, you must in one way or another imagine my own intelligence to be far superior to yours–that’s the only way you can keep on believing all the trash you’ve been reading. For if you allow yourself to accept that I might have a clue what I’m talking about, and I disagree with the authors your favor, it must mean something is wrong with you for not being able to see through their demagoguery.

However, I refuse to defend abhorrent repressive treatment of women ANYWHERE in the world. And it happens everywhere in the world. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

Yet I do find it sad that you have decided to favor the opinion of misogynists in your own view of the world. It doesn’t say much about your own opinion of women.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Now, you can call me naive. In fact, you must in one way or another imagine my own intelligence to be far superior to yours–that’s the only way you can keep on believing all the trash you’ve been reading. For if you allow yourself to accept that I might have a clue what I’m talking about, and I disagree with the authors your favor, it must mean something is wrong with you for not being able to see through their demagoguery.
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Maybe I did find your intelligence far more ‘superior’, For “ISLAM IS SUPERIOR” isn’t it? Your Imams really teach you that.

“I say… to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly…” Romans 12:1-3

However i find it amusing that a ‘kuffar’ like me and the rest of ‘inferior’ people here DISCERNS, specially the exmuslims (Praise The Lord Jesus Christ, God Bless them).

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." James 4:10

That’s why i befriended them so i may learn their experiences,and why they became ‘not superior’ for CHRIST.

Will it be false claims if you heard it from hardliners from the Superior Religion who personally practiced it?

How about personally SEEING ‘Garbage’ and HEARING ‘Garbage’ as first hand, real time experiences?

Is it still prejudice if your always cautious because you fear of offending the Superior Race in every dealings you make with them?

One more thing I love my mother, i love my wife, and i love my daughter, their thoughts and opinions inspires me. I respect them for who they are and what their say on things. Decision making are made easy with them around.

Tell that to a muslim man…:rolleyes:
 
trdchubi said:
Maybe I did find your intelligence far more ‘superior’, For “ISLAM IS SUPERIOR” isn’t it? Your Imams really teach you that.

“I say… to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly…” Romans 12:1-3

However i find it amusing that a ‘kuffar’ like me and the rest of ‘inferior’ people here DISCERNS, specially the exmuslims (Praise The Lord Jesus Christ, God Bless them).

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." James 4:10

That’s why i befriended them so i may learn their experiences,and why they became ‘not superior’ for CHRIST.

Will it be false claims if you heard it from hardliners from the Superior Religion who personally practiced it?

How about personally SEEING ‘Garbage’ and HEARING ‘Garbage’ as first hand, real time experiences?

Is it still prejudice if your always cautious because you fear of offending the Superior Race in every dealings you make with them?

One more thing I love my mother, i love my wife, and i love my daughter, their thoughts and opinions inspires me. I respect them for who they are and what their say on things. Decision making are made easy with them around.

Tell that to a muslim man…:rolleyes:
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That is so funny…

I got it so backwards. My fault.

I meant to say you must think that you’re smarter than I am. Toooo funny. My bad… lol
 
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