One Catholic voice on death penalty takes on another (Prejean vs. Scalia)

[Richardols]

germain is that at some point, God commanded Israel to execute people. Since you say that capital punishment is barbaric, and Israel had a divine imperative to conduct capital punishment, then the originator of that imperative must also be barbaric, unless God has changed, which means He is a different God now than he was then.

I’ll think about changing my mind when you death penalty lovers help to reinstate stoning to death as a penalty for adultery. If you are to be consistent with your Old Testament view of imposition of the death penalty, be consistent.

 

[Richardols]

jimmy:

I have news for you. God has not changed.

So, you believe that we are still under The Law?

 

[Richardols]

Scott_Lafrance:

What I find horrific is when people want a 100% ban on capital punishment, and convicted violent criminals escape to kill again, or better yet, continue to take life in prison.

How often has this occurred? Any examples?

He did not call for a complete ban on the practice, but rather called for a curtailment of its use, a postion I completely agree with.

Sure, a curtailment that amounts to non-use.

One is as much a part of the Culture of Death as any pro-choicer when one encourages continuation of the death penalty.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Richardols:

One is as much a part of the Culture of Death as any pro-choicer when one encourages continuation of the death penalty.

So you equate the killing of an unborn person with the killing of a convicted violent murderer? Am I hearing this right? Do you even understand the Catholic perspective on the value of life?

 

[mikev]

Wow, talk about point/-counter point. Both sides have good ones too.

Personally I believe abortion is worse than the death penalty for convicted criminals. I don’t support the death penalty; just think killing an innocent baby is worse than killing a guilty criminal.

It’s probably better to have someone like Scalia who is staunchly anti-abortion and pro-death penalty than the other way around.

It’s odd that most people I talk to who are anti-death penalty are pro-choice; and most who are pro-choice are anti-death penalty. Wonder why that is?

 

[Philip_P]

Scott_Lafrance:

So you equate the killing of an unborn person with the killing of a convicted violent murderer? Am I hearing this right? Do you even understand the Catholic perspective on the value of life?

What a bizarre argument. Why this need to “rank” evils? What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?

 

[Philip_P]

mikev:

It’s probably better to have someone like Scalia who is staunchly anti-abortion and pro-death penalty than the other way around.

I think we’re selling ourselves short. Why not push for people who are both opposed to abortion AND the death penalty?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Philip P:

What a bizarre argument. Why this need to “rank” evils? What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?

God ranks sin, so why can’t we follow His system. Killing an innocent is murder. Killing a person who is capable and willing to continue commiting violent acts against other people is self-defense. Self-defense is not murder. Read the catechism on this one.

 

[grotto]

The consequences of evil action that so harms “We the People” caused by an individual - many vs many = war, can result in the death penalty due to the henious behavior of that individual negating all effort to contain and restrain future henious acts. Protection of oneself and others has been deemed to be a responsibility of God believing and obeying people. Read Article 5, the Fifth Commandment, page 546, Para 2266, Catechism of the Catholic Church. Abuse of these circumstances is what Our Holy Father John Paul II wanted to end.

RICHARDOLS: You seem to have quite an angry way of presenting your opinions that are faulted in their foundation. Maybe you could study the differences between apples and oranges and go forward from there. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_100.gifWe need the hot air to get aloft!

 

[Richardols]

Scott_Lafrance:

So you equate the killing of an unborn person with the killing of a convicted violent murderer? Am I hearing this right? Do you even understand the Catholic perspective on the value of life?

Yes, I do understand it, and the Church considers every life valuable. And, killing is killing.

 

[Richardols]

grotto:

RICHARDOLS: You seem to have quite an angry way of presenting your opinions that are faulted in their foundation. Maybe you could study the differences between apples and oranges and

Being rather vague, aren’t we?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Richardols:

Yes, I do understand it, and the Church considers every life valuable. And, killing is killing.

Yes, killing is killing, but not every killing is murder. Its murder that God has a problem with.

Proverbs 6:16-19: “There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,** a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.”

 

[Richardols]

Scott_Lafrance:

God ranks sin, so why can’t we follow His system. Killing an innocent is murder. Killing a person who is capable and willing to continue commiting violent acts against other people is self-defense. Self-defense is not murder. Read the catechism on this one.

We’re not taking about self-defense. We’re talking about state killing of an individual.

By the way, how do you know that a convicted murderer is willing to continue to commit violent acts against others?

 

[Richardols]

Philip P:

I think we’re selling ourselves short. Why not push for people who are both opposed to abortion AND the death penalty?

A consistent pro-life ethic is what we should have. Abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia belong to the Culture of Death. Catholics should take the lead in abolishing all three.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Richardols:

We’re not taking about self-defense. We’re talking about state killing of an individual.

By the way, how do you know that a convicted murderer is willing to continue to commit violent acts against others?

How do we know anything? How do we know you aren’t going to walk into your office tomorrow with an Uzi and waste everyone? Easy, we don’t, but we can make assupmtions based on behavior patterns. That is what professional psychiatrists are trained to look for. Additionally, the catechism and canon law state quite clearly that capital punishment are not only intented to prevent repeat of crimes, but reciprocity is a viable reason for executing capital punishmenet on a convicted person who warrants it.

 

[Maranatha]

Richardols:

If it wasn’t for the judiciary balancing the power of legislatures, black people would still be drinking out of separate fountains.

Instead of dictatorship of the Judiciary, we could have organized political pressure on state legislatures and changed the seperate by equal laws in a democratic manner.

I’m against the death penalty in most cases. I believe, like Justice Scalia, we need to change state law by organizing at the state level and putting pressure on the local legislators.

 

[Richardols]

Scott_Lafrance:

we can make assupmtions based on behavior patterns.

As in a crime of passion where a man kills his faithless wife. You think that he’s going to escape jail so he can find other faithless wives?

Additionally, the catechism and canon law state quite clearly that capital punishment are not only intented to prevent repeat of crimes, but reciprocity is a viable reason for executing capital punishmenet on a convicted person who warrants it.

You ought to read what the Pope had to say about it. The circumstances warranting the death penalty are so circumscribed and to be virtually unneceesary.

Yet, you death penalty lovers put so much emphasis on using it that I get the impression that you would love to see someone executed for jaywalking.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Richardols:

As in a crime of passion where a man kills his faithless wife. You think that he’s going to escape jail so he can find other faithless wives?

You ought to read what the Pope had to say about it. The circumstances warranting the death penalty are so circumscribed and to be virtually unneceesary.

Yet, you death penalty lovers put so much emphasis on using it that I get the impression that you would love to see someone executed for jaywalking.

I’d recommend going back and rereading my posts. I have maintained from the begining of this thread that the death penalty should only be used for the unremorseful and unrehabitable few sociopathic multi-murderers. You’re assumption that I want to gas jaywalkers is crude and beneath your apparent level of intelligence.

 

[Philip_P]

Scott_Lafrance:

God ranks sin, so why can’t we follow His system. Killing an innocent is murder. Killing a person who is capable and willing to continue commiting violent acts against other people is self-defense. Self-defense is not murder. Read the catechism on this one.

So let God rank sin, not the state. I mean, how exactly is this supposed to work? A man who kills his wife in a fit of passion should be killed, but a multiple offense sexual predator should be really really killed? Or maybe you see law and order as being linked more to punishment than to security. Let’s kill that guy who killed his wife, that’ll learn him! Bet he thinks twice before killing again…oh wait, he’s dead.

The death penalty, like abortion, like any other question of public policy, is really a question of what sort of a people are we. We do not have to kill our prisoners. We have a choice. Are we a people who kill, or a people who choose life?

 

[Richardols]

Philip P:

The death penalty, like abortion, like any other question of public policy, is really a question of what sort of a people are we. We do not have to kill our prisoners. We have a choice. Are we a people who kill, or a people who choose life?

The same question has been asked in the United States, and many states have repealed their death penalties. They have concluded that their murderers don’t have to be killed. They made a choice, and are, IMO, the better for it.

Simply because there is a very narrow circumstance under which the Church tolerates the death penalty doesn’t mean that we have to focus on that circumstance. We can choose life for all persons.