One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Servant19]

You seem to be saying that because God is of a higher order than we are that we can have no knowledge of Him, just as a mineral, at a lower order than we are, can have no knowledge of us. This is a misunderstanding of the nature of the entities involved. Minerals have no knowledge of us because they lack any of the things necessary for perception or knowledge. They do not even perceive or have knowledge of other minerals or themselves.

OTOH, animals, who are of a lower order than humans, still have perceptions and knowledge of humans. Dogs may not understand how it is that their owners have this apparently endless supply of food, but when they are hungry, they know how to interact with their human to get some

It is true that our perceptions and ability to know God are limited, but not non-existent. Thus, we can know that a Being which can do certain things is well beyond human. Thus we can sufficient knowledge and perception of God for His purposes for us on earth.

Perceptions, and knowledge “of” are very much different to “absolute identification”

In order to claim someone as “God” one needs absolute identification, and prior knowledge, not knowledge “of”…

It is a clear teaching of the Catholic Church that God is essentially, in His essence, unknowable.

Of course, as you say, Jesus is “well beyond human” and I have absolute conviction of that. But why call Him God therefore? This is a man made contradiction. Not a Jesus made contradiction.

It is for this reason that the Truth of Christianity and the Truth of other religions do not contradict…



.

 

[St_Francis]

Perceptions, and knowledge “of” are very much different to “absolute identification”

In order to claim someone as “God” one needs absolute identification, and prior knowledge, not knowledge “of”…

It is a clear teaching of the Catholic Church that God is essentially, in His essence, unknowable.

Of course, as you say, Jesus is “well beyond human” and I have absolute conviction of that. But why call Him God therefore? This is a man made contradiction. Not a Jesus made contradiction.

Because He is the Son of God. This is part of the mystery of God, the part beyond our understanding.

There is natural knowledge and revealed knowledge. Natural knowledge is what we can figure out on our own, so we can figure out things like the existence and some of the attributes of God, as Aristotle did. Some of what we know, however, is revealed by God to us–we could not have figured out His Triune Nature on our own.

If God is all-good, then He would not lie to us. He said of Christ: This is My Son, in whom i am well-pleased. Is the begotten Son not of the same nature as the Father?

It is for this reason that the Truth of Christianity and the Truth of other religions do not contradict…

.

No, this makes no sense. In this respect, if Christ is not God, then Christianity is untrue. If Christ is God, then the other religions are untrue.

 

[Servant19]

Because He is the Son of God. This is part of the mystery of God, the part beyond our understanding.

Yes dear friend, a mystery it is, but it no longer is a mystery when God is 5 ft 10in tall, has brown hair and was born from the womb of a mother called Mary.

There is natural knowledge and revealed knowledge. Natural knowledge is what we can figure out on our own, so we can figure out things like the existence and some of the attributes of God, as Aristotle did. Some of what we know, however, is revealed by God to us–we could not have figured out His Triune Nature on our own.

So who is the revealer of “Revealed Knowledge”?

Wasn’t Jesus’ Revelation the final revelation according to Christianity? He never said He was God. In fact, He clearly and unequivocally said that there was a Person “greater” than Him. So who’s revelation came “after” Jesus’ Revelation to deny this clear statement from Jesus? And on what grounds do you believe that they are the bearer of any “revealed knowledge”?

If God is all-good, then He would not lie to us. He said of Christ: This is My Son, in whom i am well-pleased. Is the begotten Son not of the same nature as the Father?

Same nature, maybe…its a mystery, I cannot and will not speculate, dear friend. But all I know is that Jesus never said anything related to Him being God. We speculate far to much as human beings and create divisions from making speculations into doctrines and “facts”

I prefer to keep to the Word, spoken by the Word, and only the Word. Thats not to say that the Apostles did not speak a lot of truth, in fact pretty much all truth, but when Jesus was made to be “God” that’s not “revealed knowledge”, that’s apologetics

No, this makes no sense. In this respect, if Christ is not God, then Christianity is untrue. If Christ is God, then the other religions are untrue.

Dear friend, I would never remove the “Godness” away from Jesus. As mere, puny, mortal, human beings we have no other God to relate to than Jesus Christ, but it is the limiting of God that denies His illimitability.

Epistemologically Jesus is God to Christianity, and Baha’u’llah is God to Baha’is but neither of them are “ontologically” God.

Thankyou for your dialogue and thoughst dear friend. I would love to hear more

.

 

[Mystophilus]

I imagine that each religion which claims it is true would have some line of reasoning to back up its claim. If one considers the logic and truth of the elements if the reasoning, verifies the individual assertions, and *prays, *then I believe the truth will become clear to one who seeks.

Given the number of people who have carefully and prayerfully ended up following entirely dissimilar faiths, I have my doubts.

 

[tonyfish58]

Given the number of people who have carefully and prayerfully ended up following entirely dissimilar faiths, I have my doubts.

Could it be the Prayer should reflect on How the Religions agree

Have you observed that when you look for Fault you find it, when you look for Good you find it?

This is Good advice to which the Prophets of All Religions have given us.

I can say in all honesty, when you look to the Oneness of Religion you will find it and the differences just vaporize into Vain Imaginations!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[St_Francis]

Yes dear friend, a mystery it is, but it no longer is a mystery when God is 5 ft 10in tall, has brown hair and was born from the womb of a mother called Mary.

Since we believe that God is Trinitarian, and even that Christ Himself always existed, we see that the material body of Christ is but a very small part of Who He is.

So who is the revealer of “Revealed Knowledge”?

God.

Wasn’t Jesus’ Revelation the final revelation according to Christianity?

According to Catholic teaching, God’s revelation to us ended with the death of the last Apostle.

He never said He was God.

It is not recorded in Sacred Scripture that Christ said, “I am God.” However, in many otherways He did declare His divinity, most famously perhaps when He healed the paralytic as recounted in St Mark, chapter 2:

Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened up the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Child, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves, 7 “Why does this man speak that way?* He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?”
8 Jesus immediately knew in his mind what they were thinking to themselves, so he said, “Why are you thinking such things in your hearts?
9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, pick up your mat and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth”—11 he said to the paralytic, “I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home.”
12 He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone. They were all astounded and glorified God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

Additionaly, there are several times when Christ uses a descriptor for God from the Old Testament to refer to Himself.

In fact, He clearly and unequivocally said that there was a Person “greater” than Him.

There are a lot of humans who are greater than I am, but that doesn’t mean I am not human, does it? A Son would always honor His Father by considering Him greater than Himself.

So who’s revelation came “after” Jesus’ Revelation to deny this clear statement from Jesus? And on what grounds do you believe that they are the bearer of any “revealed knowledge”?

I think in light of the teaching of the Church that God’s revelation to us did not cease until St John’s death will clarify this for you.

Same nature, maybe…its a mystery, I cannot and will not speculate, dear friend. But all I know is that Jesus never said anything related to Him being God.

Hopefully this has been cleared up. Christ asserted His divinity in a way similar to the way He used parables.

We speculate far to much as human beings and create divisions from making speculations into doctrines and “facts”

are you suggesting that what the Catholic Church teaches is merely misused speculation? Christ very clearly gave the teaching authority to the Church.

I prefer to keep to the Word, spoken by the Word, and only the Word. Thats not to say that the Apostles did not speak a lot of truth, in fact pretty much all truth, but when Jesus was made to be “God” that’s not “revealed knowledge”, that’s apologetics

Since Christ did indeed assert His divinity on several occasions, and since He is the Word incarnate, Hos divinitt is indeed revealed knowledge.

Dear friend, I would never remove the “Godness” away from Jesus.

Since you now know that Jesus personally did reveal Himself to be God, you will understand that to say that He is good but not God would be a contradiction. Either He is good and God, or He is not God, which would mean He was not good since He lied.

As mere, puny, mortal, human beings we have no other God to relate to than Jesus Christ, but it is the limiting of God that denies His illimitability.

Christ Himself became limited in one aspect of Himself in order that He could accomplish the great good, for us, of teaching us and establishing His Church to continue to teach and to feed us. However, His totality could never be limited.

Epistemologically Jesus is God to Christianity, and Baha’u’llah is God to Baha’is but neither of them are “ontologically” God.

Epistomology is the study of being, and ontology is the study of thinking. so I am afraid that tthis makes no sense to me.

Thankyou for your dialogue and thoughst dear friend. I would love to hear more

.

This is an interesting conversation for me as well, thank you ​

 

[St_Francis]

Given the number of people who have carefully and prayerfully ended up following entirely dissimilar faiths, I have my doubts.

Given the number of people who carefully and prayerfully ended up where they did not intend to be, I must respectfully disagree

 

[St_Francis]

Could it be the Prayer should reflect on How the Religions agree

Have you observed that when you look for Fault you find it, when you look for Good you find it?

This is Good advice to which the Prophets of All Religions have given us.

I can say in all honesty, when you look to the Oneness of Religion you will find it and the differences just vaporize into Vain Imaginations!

God Bless and Regards Tony

Given the importance of some of the areas in which religions disagree, it seems that indifferentism is very dangerous for the soul.

 

[Mystophilus]

Given the number of people who carefully and prayerfully ended up where they did not intend to be, I must respectfully disagree

As much as I appreciate the exergasia , I do not follow your logic: the fact that a number of people end up where they did not intend/expect only demonstrates that a conclusion becomes clear to them, not that their conclusion is true (humans being capable of immense certainty in the midst of colossal error); further, since those unexpected destinations have included multiple faith positions, it does reinforce the fact that care and prayer do not bring everyone to the same place.

 

[Mystophilus]

I can say in all honesty, when you look to the Oneness of Religion you will find it and the differences just vaporize into Vain Imaginations!

Sorry , but I would have to say that the differences between religions are often as profound as they are beautiful. The emphatic monotheism of Islam, the panentheism of Orthodoxy, and the monism of Buddhism might appear to be superficially similar, but they directly and forcefully contradict one another.

 

[tonyfish58]

Given the importance of some of the areas in which religions disagree, it seems that indifferentism is very dangerous for the soul.

Is not the most important thing in all religions the Love and Knowledge of God

If we have achieved that, would we not be living together and doing unto others as we would have them do unto us

Without any intent of being rude, could I not then ask has theology surpassed the obvious?

Then we could observe what is the knowledge needed to Achieve the Love of God, Mans Learning or Gods Learning

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Sorry , but I would have to say that the differences between religions are often as profound as they are beautiful. The emphatic monotheism of Islam, the panentheism of Orthodoxy, and the monism of Buddhism might appear to be superficially similar, but they directly and forcefully contradict one another.

I see not contradiction in the Word of God. If one is looking one can find contradiction in all things, even the Bible. But how easy we reconcile the conflicts if we beleive in what is written. We change our view and look for the connection.

This is all one has to do with all True Religion. Look for unity and you will find it and new universes of meaning leap out and take your Soul further towards the Love of God.

Bit like a WOW Moment

In doing this it is important to consider this; Do we look at the Pure Word and make up our own mind without preconceived ideas, or do we use the current thoughts as to what the Pure Word Means in making that choice?

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

any religion that refuses to teach the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament cannot be true.

 

[St_Francis]

Is not the most important thing in all religions the Love and Knowledge of God

Yes, but you seem to think the **Knowledge **unimportant.

If we have achieved that, would we not be living together and doing unto others as we would have them do unto us

Knowledge of God causes us to love better. When we do unto others, we have a better understanding of what we want others to do unto us. For example, I may not want at all for someone to point out that I am doing the wrong thing in a certain matter, and in the same way, I do not tell my friend that she is acting wrongly in another matter.

But in fact, when we have a better knowledge of God and His ineffable Goodness, we then want to be good, and start to welcome these difficult conversations.

Without any intent of being rude, could I not then ask has theology surpassed the obvious?

No, because our sight is blinded. It is very hard for us to know what we ourselves really want done to us, much less want to do it to others. We are very inaccurate.

Then we could observe what is the knowledge needed to Achieve the Love of God, Mans Learning or Gods Learning

God Bless and Regards Tony

How do you in the Baha’i faith learn more about God and about love? How do you know it is true and accurate?

 

[Servant19]

Since we believe that God is Trinitarian, and even that Christ Himself always existed, we see that the material body of Christ is but a very small part of Who He is.

God.

According to Catholic teaching, God’s revelation to us ended with the death of the last Apostle.

It is not recorded in Sacred Scripture that Christ said, “I am God.” However, in many otherways He did declare His divinity, most famously perhaps when He healed the paralytic as recounted in St Mark, chapter 2:

Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened up the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Child, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves, 7 “Why does this man speak that way?* He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?”
8 Jesus immediately knew in his mind what they were thinking to themselves, so he said, “Why are you thinking such things in your hearts?
9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, pick up your mat and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth”—11 he said to the paralytic, “I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home.”
12 He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone. They were all astounded and glorified God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

Additionaly, there are several times when Christ uses a descriptor for God from the Old Testament to refer to Himself.

There are a lot of humans who are greater than I am, but that doesn’t mean I am not human, does it? A Son would always honor His Father by considering Him greater than Himself.

I think in light of the teaching of the Church that God’s revelation to us did not cease until St John’s death will clarify this for you.

Hopefully this has been cleared up. Christ asserted His divinity in a way similar to the way He used parables.

are you suggesting that what the Catholic Church teaches is merely misused speculation? Christ very clearly gave the teaching authority to the Church.

Since Christ did indeed assert His divinity on several occasions, and since He is the Word incarnate, Hos divinitt is indeed revealed knowledge.

Since you now know that Jesus personally did reveal Himself to be God, you will understand that to say that He is good but not God would be a contradiction. Either He is good and God, or He is not God, which would mean He was not good since He lied.

Christ Himself became limited in one aspect of Himself in order that He could accomplish the great good, for us, of teaching us and establishing His Church to continue to teach and to feed us. However, His totality could never be limited.

Epistomology is the study of being, and ontology is the study of thinking. so I am afraid that tthis makes no sense to me.

This is an interesting conversation for me as well, thank you
​

Hello there again Francis,

I think this conversation is straying somewhat from its original intended direction dear friend (my apologies…)

Might I ask we go back to the contradictions between religions. You asked “How is it possible that two ideas which contradict each other can both be true?”

What were you thinking of when you posted this?

Did you have any specific things in mind? What two ideas contradict within two religions? Maybe we can explore these ideas together?

God bless you

.​

 

[tonyfish58]

any religion that refuses to teach the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament cannot be true.

Dear eddie too - A powerful statement - Is the power the Word of Christ dear friend. Please post the link to the Bible passage.

Can you please advise if I have heard of Christ and Believed in Him with all my Heart and Soul but never partaken of the Sacrament, where would I stand if I was just about being martyred for that Faith.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Yes, but you seem to think the **Knowledge **

unimportant.

St Francis - Thank you for the dialogue - No, I feel the knowledge of God is of the utmost importance. I am saying that Knowledge of the Divine is in no way connected to Mans Learning. The Love and knowledge of God is but His Bounty to who obtains it and who does obtain it must be ever thankful to its source. No amount of Schooling will prepare you to accept the message, in fact it is more likely to hinder your vision, or as the bible tells us, be clouds that obscure you from the Glory of God.

Knowledge of God causes us to love better. When we do unto others, we have a better understanding of what we want others to do unto us. For example, I may not want at all for someone to point out that I am doing the wrong thing in a certain matter, and in the same way, I do not tell my friend that she is acting wrongly in another matter.

Agreed 100% dear friend We are to have Sin Covered eyes and remove our own sin. We must never hesitate in trying to do this every moment of our lives. We must be servants to all and prefer all others before our own needs. This is a high calling, how many will take on this task?

But in fact, when we have a better knowledge of God and His ineffable Goodness, we then want to be good, and start to welcome these difficult conversations.

Agreed 100% Again - I would observe that this knowledge is not of me or man and in no way dependent upon it, it is not what this world gave me. This is Gods Bounty to us, to rise above our animal nature and be possess of the virtues of the spirit. To be as Christ Like as we can within our own puny existence.

No, because our sight is blinded. It is very hard for us to know what we ourselves really want done to us, much less want to do it to others. We are very inaccurate.

Agreed 100% Again - It is to our Lord Christ and to God we turn and ask of them to give us true knowledge and the bounty to act upon that knowledge and the strength to impart into our daily lives.

How do you in the Baha’i faith learn more about God and about love? How do you know it is true and accurate?

Dear Friend - The Pure Word and not what Man has made of it.

God Bless your Journey and may we all learn to Love each other as God Loves us all and that includes ALL!

Regards Tony

 

[po18guy]

I think you need to consider what an intellectual giant has to say on this subject: Cardinal Newman on One Church

Far less well-known, but a true hero of the American Catholic Church is James Cardinal Gibbons. His book Faith of our Fathers was written for the sake of Christian unity. In it, he notes (only six years after he voted for the doctrine of papal infallibility) that of all the world’s Christian congregations, only one dared to claim infallibility. Each and every other denomination either actively or tacitly admitted that it was capable of teaching error.

Since our Lord did not leave us orphans, why should we then live as spiritual orphans, forever seeking a larger measure of truth? Christ Himself promised, then sent the Holy Spirit upon His fledgling Church to guide it into all truth. Not nearly all truth, or mostly truth, but all truth. It was thus on that first Pentecost, and it is true at this moment.

To believe or think otherwise is to doubt that truth has been revealed, or worse, that truth has been lost or is undiscoverable. Now that is being an orphan.

 

[St_Francis]

Hello there again Francis,

I think this conversation is straying somewhat from its original intended direction dear friend (my apologies…)

Might I ask we go back to the contradictions between religions. You asked “How is it possible that two ideas which contradict each other can both be true?”

What were you thinking of when you posted this?

Did you have any specific things in mind? What two ideas contradict within two religions? Maybe we can explore these ideas together?

God bless you

.

Well, I’m confused I thought we *were *discussing a contradiction between two religions: yours (that Christ is a good man but not God), and mine (that Christ is God), and the evidence for each assertion.

Servant19:

… You asked,“How is it that two ideas which contradict each other can both be true?”

What were you thinking of when you posted this?

The principle of non-contradiction.

If I say, George is with me, he either is or he is not. You might say, No, he is not. Then we would each be stating contradictory things, right?

However, only one of the two statements can be correct: either George is with me or he is not.

In the same way, religions make claims, many of which are mutually exclusive. Catholicism claims the Christ is God. Non-Christian religions claim He is not. Either Catholicsm is correct, or the other religions are, but both groups cannot be correct, only one.

 

[St_Francis]

St Francis - Thank you for the dialogue - No, I feel the knowledge of God is of the utmost importance. I am saying that Knowledge of the Divine is in no way connected to Mans Learning. The Love and knowledge of God is but His Bounty to who obtains it and who does obtain it must be ever thankful to its source. No amount of Schooling will prepare you to accept the message, in fact it is more likely to hinder your vision, or as the bible tells us, be clouds that obscure you from the Glory of God…

…Dear Friend - The Pure Word and not what Man has made of it.

God Bless your Journey and may we all learn to Love each other as God Loves us all and that includes ALL!

Regards Tony

We seem to agree on many points, this is good. However, I do not understand how knowledge can be unconnected to learning? How is it that you think people learn about God?

I agree that knowing about God and knowing God are two different things altogether. I have heard there are atheists who study theology (!). However, if a young man were to fall in love, wouldn’t he be grateful to the woman’s sister if she told him that the beloved really hated seafood, before the young man asked her to Red Lobster?

The Church teaches that we are not atomisticly individualistic, and that we are all in this together and should be helping each other out. I am grateful to those who share their knowledge about God, which helps me to love God better and more. However, I agree that without prayer and action, the knowledge is sterile.