One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Servant19]

Well, I’m confused I thought we *were *discussing a contradiction between two religions: yours (that Christ is a good man but not God), and mine (that Christ is God), and the evidence for each assertion.

Ah ok

My apologies.

I will go back and address some of the points you raised then dear friend
However, please remember that the climate and environment for the revelation of God’s Word differs from age to age. Whilst it may seem a contradiction, theological knowledge imparted through Revelation is only intended to awaken the souls of men and resurrected them spiritually from the dead. So contradictions may seem to be evident upon initial observation, but in reality none exist.

One must always judge using the “eyes of God” not the eyes standard amongst men. What did God intend with a certain verse? All too often we fall for the unusual trap of bending the meaning to meet our own criteria, and these criteria may be developed as a result of a need to thwart the whisperings of evil amongst men.

Hope that makes sense?

The principle of non-contradiction.

If I say, George is with me, he either is or he is not. You might say, No, he is not. Then we would each be stating contradictory things, right?
However, only one of the two statements can be correct: either George is with me or he is not.

Well, dear friend, herein lies the mystery of Revelation, and the Word of God.

If George was with you, standing by your side, and you talked to him for 2 hours without him ever making eye contact with you and never uttering a word, would I be lying in saying that he really was not “with” you?

There are always inner and outer forms with Revelation and the Word of God. One must not discount this reality. One must also not discount the Catholic principle of “and/also”…where both outer and inner meanings are applicable, but we can discuss this in more depth as we continue

In the same way, religions make claims, many of which are mutually exclusive. Catholicism claims the Christ is God. Non-Christian religions claim He is not. Either Catholicsm is correct, or the other religions are, but both groups cannot be correct, only one.

Please refer to the George explanation I gave before dear friend. There are sometimes inner meanings which must be explained for us finite minded humans to discern.

Epistemology is the explanations that are valid to man. What we can discern of things, in our limited capacity. So epistemologically Jesus is God. Since we cannot grasp God’s nature fully with our finite minds, it is easy for us to grasp onto His human Manifestation, Jesus. There is no need to worship any other than Jesus, and if we did God will be well pleased

Ontology refers to the absolute reality of things.
Baha’is would say while we would be fine to worship Jesus “as God” in reality we know that there is always some “Entity” or “Being” greater. In Jesus’ case that is the Father. Jesus clearly said that the Father is greater than He, so ontologically Jesus is not God, since God does not have a Being greater than He.

Hope that makes sense dear friend?

God bless you

.

 

[tonyfish58]

We seem to agree on many points, this is good. However, I do not understand how knowledge can be unconnected to learning? How is it that you think people learn about God?

Dear St Francis - I would answer with a question - How Did Peter & John learn about Christ?

It is Knowledge of the Spirit that I am talking about, this Knowledge needs no education from Man - It is from God through the Heart and Reason.

“Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus” (Acts 4:13)

This is a good meditation

“Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe” (I Corinthians 1:20-21).

I agree that knowing about God and knowing God are two different things altogether. I have heard there are atheists who study theology (!). However, if a young man were to fall in love, wouldn’t he be grateful to the woman’s sister if she told him that the beloved really hated seafood, before the young man asked her to Red Lobster?

The best way to think about this is the age Old Argument as to why did the Jewish Rabbi Miss Christ, were they not the most Learned of the scriptures in their time? Whereas the unlettered were the First to accept Christ

There is no better proof than this, to find God is of the Heart on not the head. Ones reasoning has to be driven by virtues and Love prompted by mans Heart. Of Course we are not talking about the heart that pumps in the chest, but our Spiritual Heart, our connection to God. Reasoning is our connection to our Soul which is given at conception.

The Church teaches that we are not atomisticly individualistic, and that we are all in this together and should be helping each other out. I am grateful to those who share their knowledge about God, which helps me to love God better and more. However, I agree that without prayer and action, the knowledge is sterile.

God bless you and the Church Yes we are all in this together, to make the World as Christ said it would be will require a unified effort and will not happen by individual agendas.

May we unite to achieve this Goal - God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[vsedriver]

Ah ok
.
Baha’is would say while we would be fine to worship Jesus “as God” in reality we know that there is always some “Entity” or “Being” greater. In Jesus’ case that is the Father. Jesus clearly said that the Father is greater than He, so ontologically Jesus is not God, since God does not have a Being greater than He.

Hope that makes sense dear friend?

God bless you

.

But Jesus has two natures, both human and divine. When speaking from his human nature the Father is greater than He. But Jesus has also said that he and the father are one. That the father was in him and he in the father. God is what he is, the second person of the trinity is who Jesus is.

 

[Servant19]

But Jesus has two natures, both human and divine. When speaking from his human nature the Father is greater than He. But Jesus has also said that he and the father are one. That the father was in him and he in the father. God is what he is, the second person of the trinity is who Jesus is.

How does one know for sure when Jesus is talking from His human nature or from His divine nature?



.

 

[Servant19]

Here is a wonderful article from the Huffington Post clearly marking the matters that we should endeavour to focus on:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5495427

.

 

[St_Francis]

Ah ok

My apologies.

I will go back and address some of the points you raised then dear friend
However, please remember that the climate and environment for the revelation of God’s Word differs from age to age. Whilst it may seem a contradiction, theological knowledge imparted through Revelation is only intended to awaken the souls of men and resurrected them spiritually from the dead. So contradictions may seem to be evident upon initial observation, but in reality none exist.

One must always judge using the “eyes of God” not the eyes standard amongst men. What did God intend with a certain verse? All too often we fall for the unusual trap of bending the meaning to meet our own criteria, and these criteria may be developed as a result of a need to thwart the whisperings of evil amongst men.

Hope that makes sense?

Yes, totally. Luckily, God gave us the resources to understand His intentions: the Catholic Church, which is protected from teaching error

Well, dear friend, herein lies the mystery of Revelation, and the Word of God.

Are you saying that you think that because there are some mysteries associated with God, due to our limited ability to understand, that God can somehow “allow” contradictions each of which are true? (I would totally disagree if you are.)

If George was with you, standing by your side, and you talked to him for 2 hours without him ever making eye contact with you and never uttering a word, would I be lying in saying that he really was not “with” you?

Here we enter into the realm of language and semantics. George’s being with me but “not all there” would be indicated differently in English. In other languages, I don’t know, you might not even be able to say that in an analogical form as we can in English. But if I say, “George is with me,” then the person I am speaking with assumes a specific meaning *because *I have given no indication that I mean it in any other way than he is physically there where I am.

There are always inner and outer forms with Revelation and the Word of God. One must not discount this reality. One must also not discount the Catholic principle of “and/also”…where both outer and inner meanings are applicable, but we can discuss this in more depth as we continue

Yes, there can be all sorts of aspects to communications, but when it comes to God, His communications to us do not contradict each other, because He is all-truth—God can neither deceive nor be deceived. The fact that something may have different layers of meaning does not mean contradiction.

For example, I teach my children to drive (sigh!). I tell the child, move more to the middle of the road as she steers to close to the shoulder. Then I say, “Move to the edge of the road,” as she goes over into the oncoming lane. She does not accuse me of contradicting myself, because what I am doing is delineating boundaries.

Please refer to the George explanation I gave before dear friend. There are sometimes inner meanings which must be explained for us finite minded humans to discern.

And the Church has the authority to do this.

Epistemology is the explanations that are valid to man. What we can discern of things, in our limited capacity. So epistemologically Jesus is God. Since we cannot grasp God’s nature fully with our finite minds, it is easy for us to grasp onto His human Manifestation, Jesus. There is no need to worship any other than Jesus, and if we did God will be well pleased

Ontology refers to the absolute reality of things.
Baha’is would say while we would be fine to worship Jesus “as God” in reality we know that there is always some “Entity” or “Being” greater. In Jesus’ case that is the Father. Jesus clearly said that the Father is greater than He, so ontologically Jesus is not God, since God does not have a Being greater than He.

Hmmm, yes, and no.

Christ is God by His nature, but He is Christ by His Person. God the Father is God by His nature, and the Father by His Person. And the Holy Spirit is God by His nature, and the Holy Spirit by His Person.

You seem to be confusing the nature and the person when considering Christ.

Hope that makes sense dear friend?

God bless you

.

Hope that helps!

 

[St_Francis]

Dear St Francis - I would answer with a question - How Did Peter & John learn about Christ?

For three years, Peter and the other Apostles were instructed by Christ. He told them: Go out and teach all nations, teaching them to observe all I have commanded you… (paraphrased, St Matthew 28:19–20).

It is Knowledge of the Spirit that I am talking about, this Knowledge needs no education from Man - It is from God through the Heart and Reason.

“Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus” (Acts 4:13)

This is a good meditation

Yes, the Apostles were given power as well as knowledge.

“Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe” (I Corinthians 1:20-21).

In no way does this negate the importance of appropriate knowledge. It simply means that knowledge is not enough.

The best way to think about this is the age Old Argument as to why did the Jewish Rabbi Miss Christ, were they not the most Learned of the scriptures in their time? Whereas the unlettered were the First to accept Christ

Because knowledge is not enough, just because someone had knowledge did not mean that they would recognize the Messiah when they saw Him. It is true that their eyes were blinded, but not by knowledge. Their eyes were blinded by sin: greed, lust for power, pride…

There is no better proof than this, to find God is of the Heart on not the head. Ones reasoning has to be driven by virtues and Love prompted by mans Heart. Of Course we are not talking about the heart that pumps in the chest, but our Spiritual Heart, our connection to God. Reasoning is our connection to our Soul which is given at conception.

God bless you and the Church Yes we are all in this together, to make the World as Christ said it would be will require a unified effort and will not happen by individual agendas.

May we unite to achieve this Goal - God Bless and Regards Tony

We also hope and pray that all humanity may be united in the Body of Christ.

 

[tonyfish58]

Yes, the Apostles were given power as well as knowledge. In no way does this negate the importance of appropriate knowledge. It simply means that knowledge is not enough.

St Francis - I am suggesting a time before what you have suggested, the time before Christ’s Arrival and Revelation and the Time not long after His Coming.

The Jews had Great Knowledge of the Scriptures, they pray to our One and Only God to bring the Promised One and still do, all that learning was of no avail for the recognition of one who they had waited for.

Peter and John were not Looking were unlettered and Found Christ. Then yes after acceptance Knowledge is needed. But what Christ gave was a new concept of God that the learned of the age could not come to terms with. Peter and John were open to it and became Fishers of Men.

I would thus ask. If indeed Muhummad is who He said He was, can you not then say that it may be that the Christians followed what the Jewish Divines did in their time?

But I think it may be time to let this go and wish you well in your Journey and Love of Christ!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I had long responce but then I realized it wouldn’t accomplish much. I would simply ask this. How can one argue with a religion which would praise those who would worship on the hills in ancient Judea, or would stand hand in hand with those praying in front of the altar of Ba’al against Elijah? Or who would associate with the pharisees? Those who blatantly disregard the command to have one God and worship no others? They disregard the command by saying we all have the same God, we all worship the same individual being whom is divinity and sacred history contradicts them. Why did God punish those who were actually worshiping him? Why does God condemn Israel for going to other gods when they were really going to the same God?

If the bahai want to make the claim that all religions are equal, they can do do so, but they cannot reconcile their beliefs with the actions of the prophets and of God, the lord Jesus Christ.

 

[St_Francis]

St Francis - I am suggesting a time before what you have suggested, the time before Christ’s Arrival and Revelation and the Time not long after His Coming.

The Jews had Great Knowledge of the Scriptures, they pray to our One and Only God to bring the Promised One and still do, all that learning was of no avail for the recognition of one who they had waited for.

Peter and John were not Looking were unlettered and Found Christ. Then yes after acceptance Knowledge is needed. But what Christ gave was a new concept of God that the learned of the age could not come to terms with. Peter and John were open to it and became Fishers of Men.

What you are saying is incomplete, ignoring a part of the equation. What I wrote is the teaching of the Church, from Christ Himself, and explains what happened very clearly.

I would thus ask. If indeed Muhummad is who He said He was, can you not then say that it may be that the Christians followed what the Jewish Divines did in their time?

You ask a question based on a mighty big if First you must show some evidence that Mohammed was indeed who he said he was–I see no evidence for that, aside from the fact that Catholic teaching is that Revelation was closed long before Mohammed was even born. And as a person, Mohammed does not seem to have displayed much in the way of virtue and advocated and carried out activities which seem contrary to your peaceful religion.

But I think it may be time to let this go and wish you well in your Journey and Love of Christ!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

I had long responce but then I realized it wouldn’t accomplish much. I would simply ask this. How can one argue with a religion which would praise those who would worship on the hills in ancient Judea, or would stand hand in hand with those praying in front of the altar of Ba’al against Elijah? Or who would associate with the pharisees? Those who blatantly disregard the command to have one God and worship no others? They disregard the command by saying we all have the same God, we all worship the same individual being whom is divinity and sacred history contradicts them. Why did God punish those who were actually worshiping him? Why does God condemn Israel for going to other gods when they were really going to the same God?

If the bahai want to make the claim that all religions are equal, they can do do so, but they cannot reconcile their beliefs with the actions of the prophets and of God, the lord Jesus Christ.

Could we safely say that after all this time you are still judging the Religions by the People that profess to Follow it.

Dear Friend the Baha’is do not support action against Gods Word.

It is simple we go to the Pure Word of the religion, read it and make up our own minds on the content. We can not fall into the trap of judging Christ or any Prophet by those who profess to follow Them (Of course there are exemptions to this, we are not condemning those who follow the Word they they believe in, in fact we join with them in the Love of God).

God Bless and may you find peace and happiness in the Word of God - Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Could we safely say that after all this time you are still judging the Religions by the People that profess to Follow it.

Dear Friend the Baha’is do not support action against Gods Word.

It is simple we go to the Pure Word of the religion, read it and make up our own minds on the content. We can not fall into the trap of judging Christ or any Prophet by those who profess to follow Them (Of course there are exemptions to this, we are not condemning those who follow the Word they they believe in, in fact we join with them in the Love of God).

God Bless and may you find peace and happiness in the Word of God - Regards Tony

Everyone should of course notice you did not deny what I said. That bahai’s don’t really have a problem with people believing or saying things about god or gods that they know to be wrong. We could go into a discussion, on why your subjectivity is mistaken but there is no point because you bahai approach the world from an angle wherein nothing is wrong. Well there are wrong things theologically but you will never directly come out and say it. Gotta build that one world order and utopia, that’s the most important thing, God and who he is, not so much.

 

[Servant19]

Hello there Francis, my apologies, I’ve struggled to find a good batch of time to address your beautiful thoughts here. I will try to address them

Yes, totally. Luckily, God gave us the resources to understand His intentions: the Catholic Church, which is protected from teaching error

Of course, you are entitled to that view, but this statement you make is only valid until the Return of Jesus Christ in the Glory of the Lord. I believe that the Glory of the Lord has descended. Glory of the Lord is “Baha’u’llah” in Arabic

With His coming, a new heaven and a new earth has been ushered in, and with it comes the Light of Truth for this new civilization. Everything else from the past is put aside.

Are you saying that you think that because there are some mysteries associated with God, due to our limited ability to understand, that God can somehow “allow” contradictions each of which are true? (I would totally disagree if you are.)

No I am saying that what seems like a contradiction is in reality a part of the whole picture. There is only “limited” exposures to truth that can be exposed to “limited” minds

Here we enter into the realm of language and semantics. George’s being with me but “not all there” would be indicated differently in English. In other languages, I don’t know, you might not even be able to say that in an analogical form as we can in English. But if I say, “George is with me,” then the person I am speaking with assumes a specific meaning *because *I have given no indication that I mean it in any other way than he is physically there where I am.

Language is critical here. Do you know Aramaic? Do you know Greek? (from Aramaic to Greek to English, is a long way)
Even then how do we know that the “method” of communication at Jesus’ time is the same methodology today?
Might it have been that when I say “My father is with me” today means he is standing by my side. When this same phrase is used in 2000 years from now, it may be understood as “my father is “spiritually” with me” (i.e I feel his presence next to me, since he has now died)…completely different…

There are plenty of scholarly papers which indicate the range of possibilities in written communications in Judea etc at that time.

Yes, there can be all sorts of aspects to communications, but when it comes to God, His communications to us do not contradict each other, because He is all-truth—God can neither deceive nor be deceived. The fact that something may have different layers of meaning does not mean contradiction.

Again, contradictions are based on human interpretations. NO human can profess the Truth of Jesus’ Words because we are all fallen, are we not?
Even the Apostles, fallen, no?

Only the Word can interpret the Word.

You place a very strong emphasis on how humans have understood the Words of Jesus. If it was absolutely clear what Jesus meant, there would not be so many denominations of Christianity, would there?

The reality is that it is not absolutely clear what the Truth is on several aspects of Jesus’ Revelation. Even the Apostles seemed to be unsure at first in several parts of Acts.

For example, I teach my children to drive (sigh!). I tell the child, move more to the middle of the road as she steers to close to the shoulder. Then I say, “Move to the edge of the road,” as she goes over into the oncoming lane. She does not accuse me of contradicting myself, because what I am doing is delineating boundaries.

My apologies, can you clarify what you are trying to say here, please?

And the Church has the authority to do this.

The Church is run by fallen individuals who have committed atrocities. No human has the authority to do this. Only the Word made flesh.

Hmmm, yes, and no.

Christ is God by His nature, but He is Christ by His Person. God the Father is God by His nature, and the Father by His Person. And the Holy Spirit is God by His nature, and the Holy Spirit by His Person.

You seem to be confusing the nature and the person when considering Christ.

Hope that helps!

Dear friend, how can fallen human beings give us an absolute rendition on the “nature” of God?

They struggled to give us the nature of the earth revolving around the sun, and even today have no idea how to resolve the global environmental crisis. Such simple things…but they can tell me what is the nature of God?

Thankyou for reading dear friend. Again, I beg you to reflect and meditate upon some of these matters more deeply

God bless you!

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Everyone should of course notice you did not deny what I said. That bahai’s don’t really have a problem with people believing or saying things about god or gods that they know to be wrong. We could go into a discussion, on why your subjectivity is mistaken but there is no point because you bahai approach the world from an angle wherein nothing is wrong. Well there are wrong things theologically but you will never directly come out and say it. Gotta build that one world order and utopia, that’s the most important thing, God and who he is, not so much.

Dear Friend - We give an alternate view, it is not for us to say it is Right or Wrong. God is that Judge.

This Biblical Reference is one way of explaining this Matthew5:17 to 48

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-48

You will note that Christ does not Say no you are Wrong, He says this is what is said and done of Old, but now this is what is so.

The views we Give are from the Baha’i Writings, they are not ours. Baha’u’llah is saying just this., “what is said and done of Old is past, but now this is what is so” Baha’u’llah Fulfills the New Testament and Offers the way forward in to the future.

We accept this guidance or we do not. Our Choice will not ultimately change the onward march of Truth as that dear friend will happen with us or without us

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear Friend - We give an alternate view, it is not for us to say it is Right or Wrong. God is that Judge.

This Biblical Reference is one way of explaining this Matthew5:17 to 48

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-48

You will note that Christ does not Say no you are Wrong, He says this is what is said and done of Old, but now this is what is so.

The views we Give are from the Baha’i Writings, they are not ours. Baha’u’llah is saying just this., “what is said and done of Old is past, but now this is what is so” Baha’u’llah Fulfills the New Testament and Offers the way forward in to the future.

We accept this guidance or we do not. Our Choice will not ultimately change the onward march of Truth as that dear friend will happen with us or without us

God Bless and Regards Tony

Ah yes, it is not for us to say what is right or wrong when considering pagan or false worship which is clearly condemned in the bible. I mean its not like God killed anyone in the old testament over that. As for Mathew 5:17 I have no idea what that has to do with the conversation but you have shown every Christian here that you do not care about worshiping God in Truth.

Tell me who was more righteous, the priests of Baal who prayed to their God and got no Miracle or Elisha who mocked and scourged their God as pathetic and impotent? Why did God not burn the sacrifice to Baal and demonstrate we all have the same God and it doesn;t matter at all what we say about this God? Why did JEsus lie when he said we have to worship God in spirit and in truth?

This is why there is no point talking with bahai.

 

[St_Francis]

Hello there Francis, my apologies, I’ve struggled to find a good batch of time to address your beautiful thoughts here. I will try to address them

Of course, you are entitled to that view, but this statement you make is only valid until the Return of Jesus Christ in the Glory of the Lord. I believe that the Glory of the Lord has descended. Glory of the Lord is “Baha’u’llah” in Arabic

With His coming, a new heaven and a new earth has been ushered in, and with it comes the Light of Truth for this new civilization. Everything else from the past is put aside.

So you believe Christ has returned? Where? When?

No I am saying that what seems like a contradiction is in reality a part of the whole picture. There is only “limited” exposures to truth that can be exposed to “limited” minds

How can a pair of statements which contradict each other both be true? If they contradict each other, they can not be parts of a whole.

Language is critical here. Do you know Aramaic? Do you know Greek? (from Aramaic to Greek to English, is a long way)
Even then how do we know that the “method” of communication at Jesus’ time is the same methodology today?
Might it have been that when I say “My father is with me” today means he is standing by my side. When this same phrase is used in 2000 years from now, it may be understood as “my father is “spiritually” with me” (i.e I feel his presence next to me, since he has now died)…completely different…

There are plenty of scholarly papers which indicate the range of possibilities in written communications in Judea etc at that time.

Well, that is where I as a Catholic am blessed: Christ promised to protect the Church from teaching error; so I can know that no matter what the translation difficulties are, ultimately I know that what the Church teaches is the truth.

Again, contradictions are based on human interpretations.

Sure, wherever humans place their own ideas above those of God and thus deviate from His Truth, yes, there will be contradictions. We must stick to God’s Word, which is expressed in the Catholic Church.

NO human can profess the Truth of Jesus’ Words because we are all fallen, are we not?
Even the Apostles, fallen, no?
But Christ gave them the authority, nay, the command! to teach.

Only the Word can interpret the Word.

You are correct: the Church is the Body of Christ, and the Church can interpret God’s entire Revelation to us.

You place a very strong emphasis on how humans have understood the Words of Jesus. If it was absolutely clear what Jesus meant, there would not be so many denominations of Christianity, would there?

The diversity of denominations is unfortunate mostly because of the increased potential for lost souls, but also because it causes scandal and confusion for others.

The reality is that what Christ said needs an authoritative interpreter. If one rejects that authoritative interpreter, then one ultimately comes up with whatever one wants, no?

The reality is that it is not absolutely clear what the Truth is on several aspects of Jesus’ Revelation. Even the Apostles seemed to be unsure at first in several parts of Acts.

Yes, at times the Apostles individually were unsure of things. Papal infallibility is limited.

My apologies, can you clarify what you are trying to say here, please?

Ummm, I wrote that in response to what I thought you said, but it turns out what I thought is not what you meant.

The Church is run by fallen individuals who have committed atrocities. No human has the authority to do this. Only the Word made flesh.

Christ did indeed give the Apostles this authority.

Dear friend, how can fallen human beings give us an absolute rendition on the “nature” of God?

Who ever claimed they were giving “an absolute rendition on the ‘nature’ of God”? No, but what we do know of God can most certainly be taught by those who have the God-given authority to do so.

They struggled to give us the nature of the earth revolving around the sun, and even today have no idea how to resolve the global environmental crisis. Such simple things…but they can tell me what is the nature of God?

Thankyou for reading dear friend. Again, I beg you to reflect and meditate upon some of these matters more deeply

I have been reflecting and meditating on these matters for almost 20 years now; others far wiser than I reflected and meditated on these matters for much longer than I. There is nothing lacking what I believe.

God bless you!

My God bless you also!

 

[Servant19]

So you believe Christ has returned? Where? When?

Yes, indeed I do believe this dear friend. In fact, I’m willing to put my life on it.
When? 1844 (2300 years after the edict to rebuild Jerusalem)
Where? Starting in the quietness of Shiraz, like “a thief in the night” and establishing His glory upon God’s Holy mountain, Mount Carmel, and its adjacent Plains of Sharon

How can a pair of statements which contradict each other both be true? If they contradict each other, they can not be parts of a whole.

If we were bacteria on an elephant, those on the trunk would describe their sustainer as a long thick, tubular structure. Those on the tail would describe a long, THIN, tubular structure with a hairy end.

These statements contradict but are still descriptions of a “much greater whole”

Well, that is where I as a Catholic am blessed: Christ promised to protect the Church from teaching error; so I can know that no matter what the translation difficulties are, ultimately I know that what the Church teaches is the truth.

Yes, I acknowledge this dear friend, however, the Jews believe that their religion was similarly protected by s’michah from teaching error, so why are they denied the Truth by Christianity, namely that Jesus was not the Messiah?

Jesus WAS the Messiah and He came and destroyed the validity of Jewish Teachers and their claim to Truth.

If Jesus can do this with His appearance on earth, then why can’t Baha’u’llah? God and His Messengers always annul the teachings of the previous Messenger/Prophet, its clear in the Old Testament, and in the Letters of Paul.

Sure, wherever humans place their own ideas above those of God and thus deviate from His Truth, yes, there will be contradictions. We must stick to God’s Word, which is expressed in the Catholic Church.

Of course my friend, so my question is why would the Catholic Church teach that Muslims worship the same God as the Muslims. Isn’t that the key to your line of contradiction? Jesus is God, Jesus is not God. Doesn’t sound like the same God to me? Yet the Catholic Church proclaims clearly that it is the same God.

But Christ gave them the authority, nay, the command! to teach.

Yes, the command and authority to teach, but the infallibility of knowledge for the eternal religious future of mankind, I have my doubts. Why would God provide the guidance for mankind from age to age through the OT Prophets, and Moses and Jesus and then stop guiding mankind through these world-transforming Souls for eternity, and just rely on fallen human beings to teach mankind from here on in?

Defies logic and defies the way God worked in the past (before Jesus)

You are correct: the Church is the Body of Christ, and the Church can interpret God’s entire Revelation to us.

Dear friend, the Word made flesh is sinless. I don’t think many on earth would call the Church as being sinless. But I’m not here to criticise the Church. (in fact there is so much I love about the Catholic Church). This is just an emphasis that a demarcation exists between Jesus’ Revelation 2000 years ago and the Church of today.

The diversity of denominations is unfortunate mostly because of the increased potential for lost souls, but also because it causes scandal and confusion for others.

Which is exactly why I believe that God has spoken again. Removed the man-made contradictions between religions and refocussed our attentions on the Sun of Truth shining resplendently upon all mankind, without prejudice. All we need to do is turn our faces towards the Light as opposed to the attractive lure of man-made idle fancy and vain imaginations, of which there are as many as there are people on earth, hence the denominations.

The reality is that what Christ said needs an authoritative interpreter. If one rejects that authoritative interpreter, then one ultimately comes up with whatever one wants, no?

Yes, of course, agreed dear friend. But even the appointment of WHO is the authoritative interpreter requires an “interpreter”. Was Peter the authorised successor of Jesus? Many believe so, but many, many do not. The point is that it was not EXPLICIT. If it was explicit then we would have unity today. But reality shows us that we do not have unity today.

God will therefore speak again, with authority and majesty and align us again to His Will. This time “this is the Day that shall not be followed by night”…

Yes, at times the Apostles individually were unsure of things. Papal infallibility is limited.

I agree, so there is a difference between the Revelation of Jesus and the teachings of the Pope. One is unlimited, the other is limited. The limitations of papal infallibility have unfortunately been unable to unify the world.

God has spoken again dear friend, and this time there are no contradictions between all the religions, it all makes sense

Who ever claimed they were giving “an absolute rendition on the ‘nature’ of God”? No, but what we do know of God can most certainly be taught by those who have the God-given authority to do so.

I have been reflecting and meditating on these matters for almost 20 years now; others far wiser than I reflected and meditated on these matters for much longer than I. There is nothing lacking what I believe.

My God bless you also!

Thankyou so much dear friend. I would be keen to hear your thoughts. I hope and pray that nothing I write offends in any way, it is not my intention.

Warmest prayers to you

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[IgnatianPhilo]

I like how bahai claim that Christians have corrupted Christianity but whenever challenged on this point they cannot back it up. Beyond your simplistic reasoning that rejecting your prophet is just like the Jews rejecting Jesus, here is the reason why Christians reject the bahai. You do not care about truth, you deny who God is.

The Christian will say the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is great. The Bahia has to say the gods of all religions are great. Zeus is great, Ba’al is great, Thor is great, Allah is great, Yahweh is great.

For all that Jesus criticized the Jews, the bahai deserve greater condemnation in that they cannot be in line with the prophets of old decry falsehood. They can never call a spade a spade. You cannot tell even the trinitarian, whose theology you deny, that you believe in your heart of hearts is an abominable corruption of Christianity (don’t deny it or I will force the point till you are forced to concede, that is I will so define what I mean that you will remain silent for being at a loss as to corrupt the meaning of my sentence).

You accuse Christianity of inventing man made doctrines, but you will never be specific. I will however point out that in contradicting St Francis, you are proving just how different you are, just how different the God of Christians is from the God of Bahai.

 

[Servant19]

I like how bahai claim that Christians have corrupted Christianity but whenever challenged on this point they cannot back it up. Beyond your simplistic reasoning that rejecting your prophet is just like the Jews rejecting Jesus, here is the reason why Christians reject the bahai. You do not care about truth, you deny who God is.

The Christian will say the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is great. The Bahia has to say the gods of all religions are great. Zeus is great, Ba’al is great, Thor is great, Allah is great, Yahweh is great.

For all that Jesus criticized the Jews, the bahai deserve greater condemnation in that they cannot be in line with the prophets of old decry falsehood. They can never call a spade a spade. You cannot tell even the trinitarian, whose theology you deny, that you believe in your heart of hearts is an abominable corruption of Christianity (don’t deny it or I will force the point till you are forced to concede, that is I will so define what I mean that you will remain silent for being at a loss as to corrupt the meaning of my sentence).

You accuse Christianity of inventing man made doctrines, but you will never be specific. I will however point out that in contradicting St Francis, you are proving just how different you are, just how different the God of Christians is from the God of Bahai.

Can you please define “corruption” and show in which post the Baha’is have used this word?

Thankyou.

The Baha’is say that there is one God. You can call Him whatever you like, as long as it is the viewed as the Ultimate Reality…

So there is something wrong with Allah? Something wrong with Yahweh? You see them as different gods? The Catholic Church disagrees and I’m siding with them because Baha’is acknowledge the Truth wherever it may express itself.

I would add therefore that the God of IgnatianPhilo is not the God of Catholicism…



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[tonyfish58]

So you believe Christ has returned? Where? When? My God bless you also!

Dear St Francis - I did not wish to reply to this until Servant had done so, but I will keep my reply short. I will address only your first question.

What you have asked is the most important question you will ever ask in this lifetime and I pray to Our God that you look at these answers with a searching mind.

I was reading a book to day that answers your question in the most Logical Way Possible. It was written by Baha’u’llah in Two Days and Two Nights in answer to questions asked by the Uncle of the Bab (Means the Gate in English)

The Uncle of the Bab could not understand how his nephew Could be the promised Qa’im and Mihdi of Islam (Declared His Mission in 1844). This event is also the Promised Return of Christ according to the Old and New Testament Scriptures.

This book was the answer to those questions and proves the Truth of all Gods Religions - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

The Book starts as such;

IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.

• No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán. *

“The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets…”

In this book is quoted a tradition that Knowledge is of 27 letters and that mankind had only been given on 2 letters thereof. At the coming of the Bab the remaining 25 letters were released. This fulfilled the Prophesy’s of Daniel 12:4 “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased”.

The Bab had told His Followers (in my words) that communication would be made available to spread the cause of “Him who God Would Make Manifest”, who the Bab had come to prepare the way for. (Baha’u’llah, The Glory of the Lord)

So I pose this observation - Look at mans progress to the mid 1800s and what it is now only 170 years after that World Embracing Declaration. What force was unleashed into this World that we can now at the press of the button talk to anyone in the world?



God Bless your Meditations and Regards Tony