One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[St_Francis]

I think you’ve made my point. It still takes some degree of believing, some degree of faith, even to believe one is immensely certain.

I *believe *the earth goes around the sun; I *believe *the moon goes around the earth; I *believe *the sky is blue…

Believe: 1. to accept something as true, to feel sure of the truth of
2. to hold (something) as an opinion; to think or suppose

See that there are two definitions. You seem to be confusing the two in order to make your point.

 

[St_Francis]

Have you considered these Biblical Passages?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - Context - The Return of the Lord

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Does this not clearly mean that the Christian will not be the first to recognize the Return of Christ?

IMHO - Is it not saying those who are still alive in Christ, will not precede those who had forgotten their Lord. Could it be that those who had forgotten Christ may not have the Doctrines to hold them back from the New Word and will Glory in His Coming, then those that still believe in Christ will come to know their Lords Return

Seriously? You are interpreting *our *Scriptures to suit *your *needs? “Those who have fallen asleep” refers to those who have died in the Faith. It is a term frequently used then and still used among the Eastern Christians. So, those whose bodies are still united with their souls, those who are still alive here in this world, those Christians who have not yet died, *those *will not precede those who have already died *in Christ. *How could it possibly make any sense at all that those who have "forgotten,’ which could only mean rejected, Christ would precede those who have remained true to Him?

Could this be why your mind still asks these deep and perplexing questions?

What deep and perplexing questions does my mind still ask?

Dear Friend, it is your Choice and I can tell you a Baha’i Loves Christ with all His Heart and All His Soul and would Offer His Life as would any person who is still alive in Christ!

God Bless and Regards Tony

Christ said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” How can you say that you are following Christ when you reject His teachings?

 

[St_Francis]

Of course dear friend, I will forgo all thinking to acknowledge a Truth. We have an inherent capability given to us by God which is the primary vehicle for discerning truth from false. That is the intellect, rationality and reason, capacities of the human mind we should use more.

This is contradictory. You will forgo all thinking to acknowledge a Truth? You will forego all thinking in order to use your intellect, rationality, and reason? Just what do you consider thinking?

There is a validity to the reasoning why I believe what Baha’u’llah stated in the quote offered above. The reasoning is that it does not deny the purity of the worship of the One God offered in ALL major global religions. For this reason, the Messengers and Prophets come from God, they are simply given different missions and are endowed with different gifts. EVERYTHING therefore that these Prophets state are from God and must be taken very seriously.

Did you have something in mind to address to me for which you wish me to forgo my Baha’i thinking?

This is a little something I wrote as the result of reading something that is tangental to our topic, so I am not posting that. However, what I have written is not based on my own thought, but on the recognition of a great truth contained in the writings of others.

Christianity is proved not because some people will kill you if you do not accept it, not because it is very pretty and allows people to avoid fighting against evil in the world, not because it allows you to do what you want and still feel good about yourself, not because respectable people have accepted it, *but because Christ performed miracles to prove His divinity. *

 

[St_Francis]

The Baha’i Writings cover this topic many times and explains to us this is what holds people back from recognizing “The Return”. It may be that we need to rise above Hollow thoughts to see with new eyes and hear with new ears?

“The fact that we imagine ourselves to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles in the path towards unity, and unity is necessary if we would reach truth, for truth is one.” — `Abdu’l-Bahá

This book will explain why you feel that way - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

From your book: …man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious,… unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.
Now, this seems to say that we should ignore that which is man-made and follow only that which is from God Himself. Would you agree with that? Or have I got that wrong?

Now, if you are going to follow that which is from God, you must have some standard by which to discern that which is from God and that which is from Man.

Whatever standard is used must serve to differentiate something which is from God from something which is from Man.

Here is an extract proving why the Jews missed Christ

“…And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness”.

Well, this may apply to the Jews, to whom God had sent many signs and prophecies about the Messiah, but once the Messiah came, the only prophecies were of the return of Christ Himself. There was no prophecy of Mohammed or Buddha or Ba’ha’ullah or Bab… Nor did any of these people evince any signs of having been sent by God. So one cannot equate the Jews’ non-recognition of Christ, when they knew the many prophecies about Him, and when they saw the signs of His divinity (miracles), with people who do not choose to follow men who have not been prophesied and who have not shown any signs of having been sent by God.

It can be also said if one chooses to study the writings of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith you will see Judaism, Christianity, Muslim and the Words of all other True Religions contained within the Baha’i Faith.

Well, sure, a person can take bits and pieces of many lines of thought and put them all together, but that doesn’t make it true. More is needed to show that it is more than man’s putting something together.

Is it not then just our Frame of Reference?

No, it is an actual difference between one set of events and other sets of events. One set is completely different from the others in that one ended with the arrival of God Himself, as shown by what He taught, the miracles He performed, and the changes towards extreme holiness He wrought in people who followed Him.

You have to study Islam in context to the Age and to the Peoples it was revealed to.

At its Height the Muslim Faith was the Roll Model for the World, this being an Historical Fact.

I am afraid you will have to give me some evidence of this, because as far as I can tell, this never was the case, unless one limits “the world” for which you claim Islam to have been a model to those areas which had been unjustly taken by the sword.

If you are to judge the Religion by the Radical Followers that have removed themselves from the True Word of God, then can you not agree that even the Catholic Faith has a lot of skeletons in the closet!

I judge a religion by the fruits of its teachings; how those people are who most fully follow the teachings of the religion. One cannot judge a religion by the actions of those who do not follow it.

If you study Muhummad with Justice you will see He lived the Life of His Word.

Well, that’s true. He said kill infidels and he went out to kill as many as he could.

All True Religion Teaches Truth, the older they become the more man has mad a mess of them. This is for each person to decide for themselves, God Bless your meditations upon this subject!

Yes, man will make a mess of just about anything, left to his own devices. However, there is one Church which God has promised to protect from man’s errors, which is the Catholic Church.

His

Dear St Francis - I wish you well in life and Faith. May the wonderment of Gods Word permeate your Soul

God Bless and Regards Tony

And may God bless you with a new-found faith in His Truth

 

[Servant19]

I judge a religion by the fruits of its teachings; how those people are who most fully follow the teachings of the religion. One cannot judge a religion by the actions of those who do not follow

May I ask what your thoughts are in the fruits of the Bahai religion?



.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I just a found a clear reference in the Baha’i book of laws that mentions Congregational prayers like the Friday prayers have been annulled:

**"**Congregational ****prayer, in the sense of formal obligatory prayer which is to be recited in accordance with a prescribed ritual as, for example, is the custom in Islám where **Friday **prayer in the mosque is led by an imám, has been annulled in the Bahá’í Dispensation."

From my reading, that simply states that in the Baha’i religion, Baha’is do not have congregational obligatory prayer.

I don’t see anything forbidding Baha’is from participating in congregational prayers in this passage.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Well, that’s true. He said kill infidels and he went out to kill as many as he could.

This seems to me to be an uncharitable, unjustifiable attack on Islam and Muslims and against the rules of this forum.

 

[1enlighten1]

From my reading, that simply states that in the Baha’i religion, Baha’is do not have congregational obligatory prayer.

I don’t see anything forbidding Baha’is from participating in congregational prayers in this passage.

So you are saying when Baha’u’llah was uttering the following words he meant that Baha’is can indeed perform congregational prayers and annulled is just a meaningless word in the context:

"It hath been ordained that obligatory prayer is to be performed by each of you individually. Save in the Prayer for the Dead, the practice of congregational prayer hath been annulled."
Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan

What exactly is the point of this law if it means Baha’is can still perform congregational prayers? Congregational prayers were not even compulsory in Islam.

 

[St_Francis]

This seems to me to be an uncharitable, unjustifiable attack on Islam and Muslims and against the rules of this forum.

It is completely justifiable: it is true.

 

[St_Francis]

May I ask what your thoughts are in the fruits of the Bahai religion?



.

I do not know enough to say. I have only initial impressions.

 

[Servant19]

So you are saying when Baha’u’llah was uttering the following words he meant that Baha’is can indeed perform congregational prayers and annulled is just a meaningless word in the context:

"It hath been ordained that obligatory prayer is to be performed by each of you individually. Save in the Prayer for the Dead, the practice of congregational prayer hath been annulled."
Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan

What exactly is the point of this law if it means Baha’is can still perform congregational prayers? Congregational prayers were not even compulsory in Islam.

Hi enlighten

Your quote from God Passes By is in reference to Abdu’l-Baha attending the noonday prayer at the local mosque to distribute alms, not (in my humble understanding) to offer prayers and supplications with the congregations of Muslims gathered therein, facing Mecca.

Abdu’l-Baha knew (not believed, KNEW) without a doubt that the Point of Adoration was his Father, to offer prayers to Mecca disrespects the reality that is Baha’u’llah.

Baha’is are perfectly comfortable visiting Mosques and Churches, the only congregational prayer permissable to Baha’is is the Prayer for the Dead

Hope that helps



.

 

[1enlighten1]

Hello dear friend.

…

Muslims face Mecca during their prayers in the mosque. **To face Mecca will be indicative of a denial of our Lord in Bahji. **

…
.

Hi enlighten

Your quote from God Passes By is in reference to Abdu’l-Baha attending the noonday prayer at the local mosque to distribute alms, not (in my humble understanding) to offer prayers and supplications with the congregations of Muslims gathered therein, facing Mecca.

Abdu’l-Baha knew (not believed, KNEW) without a doubt that the Point of Adoration was his Father, to offer prayers to Mecca disrespects the reality that is Baha’u’llah.

Baha’is are perfectly comfortable visiting Mosques and Churches, the only congregational prayer permissable to Baha’is is the Prayer for the Dead

Hope that helps



.

Hi Servant,

It kinda helped. But I had doubts about “attended” in the phrase: “He attended the noonday prayer at the mosque”. You know it can both mean he “performed the noonday prayers” or “he just hung around the mosque without performing the prayers”. Well, I double checked the Persian version from Shoghi’s Qarn-i Badi (reference.bahai.org/download/gpb-fa-doc.zip). This is what it says:

با وجود خستگی و ضعف فراوان جهت ادای صلوة ظهر در جامع
مدينه حضور بهمرسانيد

It is clearly saying he went to the Mosque to perform the midday prayers

So, nope it did not help. Abdu’l-Baha was clearly praying the congregational midday prayers with Muslims facing Mecca!

 

[Servant19]

Hi Servant,

It kinda helped. But I had doubts about “attended” in the phrase: “He attended the noonday prayer at the mosque”. You know it can both mean he “performed the noonday prayers” or “he just hung around the mosque without performing the prayers”. Well, I double checked the Persian version from Shoghi’s Qarn-i Badi (reference.bahai.org/download/gpb-fa-doc.zip). This is what it says:

با وجود خستگی و ضعف فراوان جهت ادای صلوة ظهر در جامع
مدينه حضور بهمرسانيد

It is clearly saying he went to the Mosque to perform the midday prayers

So, nope it did not help. Abdu’l-Baha was clearly praying the congregational midday prayers with Muslims facing Mecca!

So you must be fluent in the Farsi language?

.

 

[arthra]

As a Baha’i I’ve been aware that while Baha’u’llah and His family were imprisoned and in exile in Akka that they did attend services at the Mosque… this does not mean they were Muslims …

Some of the members of the family were buried outside the prison fortress of Akka among Muslim grave sites…but this did not mean they were Muslims.

They were an oppressed group under constant scrutiny of the Ottoman authorities and it was not for several years that they were relocated outside the confines of the prison.

Also see the following:

It is important to note at this juncture that although Shoghi Effendi did not find it appropriate in his day, there had been great wisdom in 'Abdu’l-Bahá’s attendance at the mosque during His Ministry. At the time of Bahá’u’lláh’s arrival, the people of 'Akká considered a man who did not attend a mosque or a church to be an infidel. The Faith had neither formulated its teachings and laws, nor was its true identity known to the inhabitants of the Holy Land. It had been presented to the population as a misguided sect of unbelievers. In these circumstances, refusal to go to the mosque would have stigmatized Bahá’u’lláh and His companions as infidels. By attending the mosque they came to be regarded in the eyes of the public as believers in God. One of the useful by-products of attending the mosque was that 'Abdu’l-Bahá established a marvellous relationship with the people, and in time emerged, in the words of an admirer, as the 'Master of ‘Akká’.

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha’u’llah, p. 289

Having served on an inter-faith ciouncil in my own community I can also say that we Baha’is attend many services and in inter-faith services contribute prayers and so on.

What I generally do when Muslims are offering their prayers is to stand respectfully in silence while their prayers are offered. We do not join in as we do not wish to cause any confusion that we are Muslim.

 

[Servant19]

I do not know enough to say. I have only initial impressions.

Don’t you think you should learn more in order to foster a more fruitful dialogue?

Would you not say that it is imperative to learn about other religions before one makes sweeping generalizations such as “only my religion is the Truth”?



.

 

[1enlighten1]

As a Baha’i I’ve been aware that while Baha’u’llah and His family were imprisoned and in exile in Akka that they did attend services at the Mosque… this does not mean they were Muslims …

Some of the members of the family were buried outside the prison fortress of Akka among Muslim grave sites…but this did not mean they were Muslims.

They were an oppressed group under constant scrutiny of the Ottoman authorities and it was not for several years that they were relocated outside the confines of the prison.

Also see the following:

It is important to note at this juncture that although Shoghi Effendi did not find it appropriate in his day, there had been great wisdom in 'Abdu’l-Bahá’s attendance at the mosque during His Ministry. At the time of Bahá’u’lláh’s arrival, the people of 'Akká considered a man who did not attend a mosque or a church to be an infidel. The Faith had neither formulated its teachings and laws, nor was its true identity known to the inhabitants of the Holy Land. It had been presented to the population as a misguided sect of unbelievers. In these circumstances, refusal to go to the mosque would have stigmatized Bahá’u’lláh and His companions as infidels. By attending the mosque they came to be regarded in the eyes of the public as believers in God. One of the useful by-products of attending the mosque was that 'Abdu’l-Bahá established a marvellous relationship with the people, and in time emerged, in the words of an admirer, as the 'Master of ‘Akká’.

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha’u’llah, p. 289

Having served on an inter-faith ciouncil in my own community I can also say that we Baha’is attend many services and in inter-faith services contribute prayers and so on.

What I generally do when Muslims are offering their prayers is to stand respectfully in silence while their prayers are offered. We do not join in as we do not wish to cause any confusion that we are Muslim.

Wait . . . what?!!
Nope:

***Lights of Guidance
*215. Bahá’ís Must not Dissimulate their Faith Under Any Circumstances

“In Persia, , even during the period of persecution, when life was in danger, and complete freedom offered to those who indicated they were Muslims and not Bahá’ís, the Guardian not only deprived anyone who did not openly declare his Faith of his voting rights, but even indicated they were Covenant breakers.
“Thus you will see that it is completely inconsistent for a Bahá’í under any circumstances whatsoever, to indicate they are anything but a Bahá’í, regardless of what the result may be.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to two believers, April 30, 1957)**

:tsktsk:

 

[1enlighten1]

As a Baha’i I’ve been aware that while Baha’u’llah and His family were imprisoned and in exile in Akka that they did attend services at the Mosque… this does not mean they were Muslims …

Some of the members of the family were buried outside the prison fortress of Akka among Muslim grave sites…but this did not mean they were Muslims.

They were an oppressed group under constant scrutiny of the Ottoman authorities and it was not for several years that they were relocated outside the confines of the prison.

Also see the following:

It is important to note at this juncture that although Shoghi Effendi did not find it appropriate in his day, there had been great wisdom in 'Abdu’l-Bahá’s attendance at the mosque during His Ministry. At the time of Bahá’u’lláh’s arrival, the people of 'Akká considered a man who did not attend a mosque or a church to be an infidel. The Faith had neither formulated its teachings and laws, nor was its true identity known to the inhabitants of the Holy Land. It had been presented to the population as a misguided sect of unbelievers. In these circumstances, refusal to go to the mosque would have stigmatized Bahá’u’lláh and His companions as infidels. By attending the mosque they came to be regarded in the eyes of the public as believers in God. One of the useful by-products of attending the mosque was that 'Abdu’l-Bahá established a marvellous relationship with the people, and in time emerged, in the words of an admirer, as the 'Master of ‘Akká’.

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha’u’llah, p. 289

Having served on an inter-faith ciouncil in my own community I can also say that we Baha’is attend many services and in inter-faith services contribute prayers and so on.

What I generally do when Muslims are offering their prayers is to stand respectfully in silence while their prayers are offered. We do not join in as we do not wish to cause any confusion that we are Muslim.

Wait . . . what?!!
Nope:

***Lights of Guidance
*215. Bahá’ís Must not Dissimulate their Faith Under Any Circumstances

“In Persia, , even during the period of persecution, when life was in danger, and complete freedom offered to those who indicated they were Muslims and not Bahá’ís, the Guardian not only deprived anyone who did not openly declare his Faith of his voting rights, but even indicated they were Covenant breakers.
“Thus you will see that it is completely inconsistent for a Bahá’í under any circumstances whatsoever, to indicate they are anything but a Bahá’í, regardless of what the result may be.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to two believers, April 30, 1957)**

:tsktsk:

 

[tonyfish58]

From your book: …man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious,… unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. Now, this seems to say that we should ignore that which is man-made and follow only that which is from God Himself. Would you agree with that? Or have I got that wrong?

That is one way to look at that selection of the quotation.

Now, if you are going to follow that which is from God, you must have some standard by which to discern that which is from God and that which is from Man. Whatever standard is used must serve to differentiate something which is from God from something which is from Man.

Yes - The Standard if the Prophet themselves, then their Word. Use any other avenue and the Truth can be clouded.

Well, this may apply to the Jews, to whom God had sent many signs and prophecies about the Messiah, but once the Messiah came, the only prophecies were of the return of Christ Himself. There was no prophecy of Mohammed or Buddha or Ba’ha’ullah or Bab… Nor did any of these people evince any signs of having been sent by God. So one cannot equate the Jews’ non-recognition of Christ, when they knew the many prophecies about Him, and when they saw the signs of His divinity (miracles), with people who do not choose to follow men who have not been prophesied and who have not shown any signs of having been sent by God.

The Bible is Full of Prophesy re Mohammed the Bab, and Baha’u’llah, who came after Christ. One has too look outside current interpretation of “The Bible” The signs of their coming are as copious as were the signs of Jesus and for Baha’u’llah volumes of signs were fulfilled.

This shows you that Miracles are not a proof of the Majesty of Christ. It is Christ and His Word that penetrate the Soul.

Well, sure, a person can take bits and pieces of many lines of thought and put them all together, but that doesn’t make it true. More is needed to show that it is more than man’s putting something together.

The Word is their for us all to see, the Truth is contained within the Word. It is our Prayer and reflection that will bring out the meaning.

I am afraid you will have to give me some evidence of this, because as far as I can tell, this never was the case, unless one limits “the world” for which you claim Islam to have been a model to those areas which had been unjustly taken by the sword.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_Islam

I judge a religion by the fruits of its teachings; how those people are who most fully follow the teachings of the religion. One cannot judge a religion by the actions of those who do not follow it.

Then you have no choice but to Judge Baha’u’llah with Love and Justice.

Well, that’s true. He said kill infidels and he went out to kill as many as he could.

This is not a view of the Koran, see this link - quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_concept_of_jihad_%28P1360%29.html

1- First, we must always be aware of the prime declaration in the Quran which states that God does not advocate sin:

“God never advocates sin. Are you saying about God what you do not know?” 7:28

2- Following from that, the Quran states categorically that killing any innocent soul is a gross sin:

“… You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand.” 6:151

“You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. …” 17:33

The prohibition to kill any innocent soul has always been the law of God, in the Quran and in all previous scripture:

"…, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. " 5:32

3- God does not allow fighting (war) except in the case of self defence:

" … If they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no excuse to fight them" 4:90

Yes, man will make a mess of just about anything, left to his own devices. However, there is one Church which God has promised to protect from man’s errors, which is the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately we still do dear friend in God.

God Bless your Faith and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Wait . . . what?!! Nope:

***Lights of Guidance ***215. Bahá’ís Must not Dissimulate their Faith Under Any Circumstances

“In Persia, , even during the period of persecution, when life was in danger, and complete freedom offered to those who indicated they were Muslims and not Bahá’ís, the Guardian not only deprived anyone who did not openly declare his Faith of his voting rights, but even indicated they were Covenant breakers.
“Thus you will see that it is completely inconsistent for a Bahá’í under any circumstances whatsoever, to indicate they are anything but a Bahá’í, regardless of what the result may be.” (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to two believers, April 30, 1957) :tsktsk:

1enlighten1 - So dear friend in Faith - You would recant your Faith to save your life

Is that what a Disciple of Christ would do?

Would you as a Christian lie to save yourself?

You either believe or you do not believe that God will look after you. Telling a lie is not how Christ tells us to live.

Well worth a thought and then think of the passage you quoted.

aqdasproject.com/kitab-i-aqdas/compilations/lightsofguidance/lg-178-217.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[1enlighten1]

1enlighten1 - So dear friend in Faith - You would recant your Faith to save your life

Is that what a Disciple of Christ would do?

Would you as a Christian lie to save yourself?

You either believe or you do not believe that God will look after you. Telling a lie is not how Christ tells us to live.

Well worth a thought and then think of the passage you quoted.

aqdasproject.com/kitab-i-aqdas/compilations/lightsofguidance/lg-178-217.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

Don’t ask me! That is exactly what Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha were doing and were posing as Muslims and praying Muslim prayers in congregation in Muslim Mosques. Tell them:

**It is important to note at this juncture that although Shoghi Effendi did not find it appropriate in his day, there had been great wisdom in 'Abdu’l-Bahá’s attendance at the mosque during His Ministry. At the time of Bahá’u’lláh’s arrival, the people of 'Akká considered a man who did not attend a mosque or a church to be an infidel. The Faith had neither formulated its teachings and laws, nor was its true identity known to the inhabitants of the Holy Land. It had been presented to the population as a misguided sect of unbelievers. In these circumstances, refusal to go to the mosque would have stigmatized Bahá’u’lláh and His companions as infidels. By attending the mosque they came to be regarded in the eyes of the public as believers in God. One of the useful by-products of attending the mosque was that 'Abdu’l-Bahá established a marvellous relationship with the people, and in time emerged, in the words of an admirer, as the 'Master of ‘Akká’.
~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha’u’llah, p. 289
**

:juggle: :tsktsk: