One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Denise1957]

Denise1957 - The Bible can play the answers out for us there

John 14:15 ESV - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 2:4 ESV - “Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

Romans 12:19 ESV - "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

God Bless and Regards Tony

I don’t see that the quotes you provided address my question. So what happens when someone willfully and with culpability breaks God’s Commandments?

 

[Servant19]

No, Catholicism does not redefine Judaism. The Jews were fiercely monotheistic. And the first commandment as given by God is that we shall have no other gods before Him.

What do I think about justice and fairness as not unloving virtues? It depends on how you define justice.

In the same manner that Judaism is not redefined by Catholicism, the concept of unity of religions is not redefined by the Baha’i Faith dear Denise.

Catholicism openly professes to the truths enshrined in all religions. Going back to the early years since the inception of Islam, Catholic saints acknowledged and revered the truths enshrined in Muhammad’s religion.

The concepts enshrined in the theme “unity of religions” is fully explored and valued in Catholicism…



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[Denise1957]

The concepts enshrined in the theme “unity of religions” is fully explored and valued in Catholicism…

Not true.

 

[tonyfish58]

I don’t see that the quotes you provided address my question. So what happens when someone willfully and with culpability breaks God’s Commandments?

Denise1957 - The Bible again tells us the story;

Matthew 5:19 ESV - “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV - “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Denise1957]

Denise1957 - The Bible again tells us the story;

Matthew 5:19 ESV - “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV - “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

So in your own words, what happens when someone willfully and with culpability break God’s commandments?

 

[tonyfish58]

So in your own words, what happens when someone willfully and with culpability break God’s commandments?

Why my words, they are worth little

Dear Denise1957 - It is between God and Myself that I have to worry about in that regards and I leave it all to God to be my Judge. Only God can Forgive.

Also this is a document I like - vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Denise1957]

See, here’s the thing. You cannot define Catholicism based on you syncretistic beliefs. You can pull quotes from scripture, but you obviously don’t know what those quotes really mean. Catholicism, like Judaism, does not accept a unity of religions. To believe as such is to redefine Catholicism (and Judaism), which is typical of syncretists and new-agers.

 

[Servant19]

See, here’s the thing. You cannot define Catholicism based on you syncretistic beliefs. You can pull quotes from scripture, but you obviously don’t know what those quotes really mean. Catholicism, like Judaism, does not accept a unity of religions. To believe as such is to redefine Catholicism (and Judaism), which is typical of syncretists and new-agers.

Dear Denise, does Catholicism acknowledge the Prophets of the Old Testament? Were they all from God? Were they all given a Revelation, a Mission, a Purpose?

Of course it does.

In the sense that they were all the Messengers of God’s message to humanity, they were united. That is all. Their messages, their Revelations, their Mission were all different and were specific to a purpose.

This is all that the Baha’i religion is professing.

It is acknowledged that “religions” are different, but the major global religions all stem from the one God. This is the meaning of “unity of religions”…

Hope that clarifies the position to you in terms of correlating it to the Prophets of old

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[tonyfish58]

See, here’s the thing. You cannot define Catholicism based on you syncretistic beliefs. You can pull quotes from scripture, but you obviously don’t know what those quotes really mean. Catholicism, like Judaism, does not accept a unity of religions. To believe as such is to redefine Catholicism (and Judaism), which is typical of syncretists and new-agers.

Denise1957 - I am not here to “Define Catholicism”.

The Laws set the standard to which we will all fall short, the consequence of breaking the laws is spiritual Death.

Thus ours is always to ask for forgiveness, there is no person on this Earth that does not have to ask for Forgiveness.

We are all sinners and to forgive that sin is For God, not us. In the end what Happens to a sinner is for God to do with! A lifetime sinner may reach the essence of Faith on the Death bed and Be saved. A lifelong believer may on the Death Bed doubt and be lost, no one knows their end!

God Bless and Regards tony

 

[Denise1957]

Dear Denise, does Catholicism acknowledge the Prophets of the Old Testament? Were they all from God? Were they all given a Revelation, a Mission, a Purpose?

Of course it does.

In the sense that they were all the Messengers of God’s message to humanity, they were united. That is all. Their messages, their Revelations, their Mission were all different and were specific to a purpose.

This is all that the Baha’i religion is professing.

It is acknowledged that “religions” are different, but the major global religions all stem from the one God. This is the meaning of “unity of religions”…

Hope that clarifies the position to you in terms of correlating it to the Prophets of old

.

Actually, all religions are not from God. I don’t expect you to accept that, but I do expect you to try to understand that you do not have a right to redefine Our Lord Jesus Christ, as to who He was and is, or what His mission was and is. He was not a peace and luv hippie, and a thorough reading of the Scriptures will teach you that, if you’ve a mind to see it. Though without the guidance of the Catholic Church, it’s difficult to properly interpret Sacred Scripture. Jesus provided a Church to pass on His teachings. If you want to talk about what your religion believes, then that’s fine. But it is very obvious that you don’t have a proper understanding at all about the Catholic Faith, or who Jesus was and is.

 

[Servant19]

Actually, all religions are not from God.

I agree with you

I don’t expect you to accept that,

I do accept that

but I do expect you to try to understand that you do not have a right to redefine Our Lord Jesus Christ, as to who He was and is, or what His mission was and is.

Can you please point to how Jesus has been redefined please?

He was not a peace and luv hippie,

And neither am I

and neither is any of the global religions…

and thorough reading of the Scriptures will teach you that, if you’ve a mind to see it.

I see it and we are in agreement with it…

Though without the guidance of the Catholic Church, it’s difficult to properly interpret Sacred Scripture.

According to Daniel the TRUE meaning of the Book was sealed until the coming again of the Lord…Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the one that unsealed the meanings of the Book…

Jesus provided a Church to pass on His teachings.

…and a great job they did of it too, and continue to do so today

If you want to talk about what your religion believes, then that’s fine. But it is very obvious that you don’t have a proper understanding at all about the Catholic Faith.

…this may be so dear sister, but lets explore why together. Let us reason together.

The First and most important commandment of Jesus was Love. Truth does not even come into the equation really.

Maybe through Love, truth can be discerned.

It is the meaning of love that needs to be universally recognized.



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[Denise1957]

Denise1957 - I am not here to “Define Catholicism”.

The Laws set the standard to which we will all fall short, the consequence of breaking the laws is spiritual Death.

Thus ours is always to ask for forgiveness, there is no person on this Earth that does not have to ask for Forgiveness.

We are all sinners and to forgive that sin is For God, not us. In the end what Happens to a sinner is for God to do with! A lifetime sinner may reach the essence of Faith on the Death bed and Be saved. A lifelong believer may on the Death Bed doubt and be lost, no one knows their end!

God Bless and Regards tony

The consequence of breaking the law (grave sin) , with the requisite culpability and without repentance means the fires of Hell. Or the lowest regions of Purgatory, which is almost as bad as Hell. However, God is merciful on those who are repentant, or who are not aware of the consequences of sin, or that they are not aware that they have even committed a grave sin.
It’s not all about peace and luv. There has to be a balance between God’s Justice, and His great mercy.

And with that, I bid you goodnight. It’s getting late.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This is truly where dialogue has broken down and the parties, well one of them, just repeat themselves. Tony, you made the point that Jesus did not give the High Priest a clear answer. It was a clear enough answer that the high priest should tear his robes for the blasphemy he heard. Now if I were to tear my robe, or rather t-shirt, it would not be because you gave a clear answer but because you never give an answer in the first place. Is Christianity equally as correct as the bahai religion? Equally true, equally valid, equally beneficial? These are not hard questions. Either we are or we are not. We cannot be both untrue and true at the same time. Are the core doctrines of Christianity equally valid in the bahai universe to their doctrines? It is not a hard question. Muslims can answer it, atheists can answer it and jews can answer it. They know how to answer this sort of question but bahais are the only ones who cannot and I know why. Because you don’t want to share what you actually believe, that you actually believe Christianity a corruption, that centuries of man made Christianity have distorted true Christianity and thus the need for a revelation. You cannot deny this. Sure, you can reinterpret my words and make it seem like you disagree with this assessment but due to your inherently dishonest nature, I know what you actually believe. If there is one religion in the world which promotes obfuscation and lies it is the bahai religion, because you don’t believe people are ready for true enlightenment. You are the world religions as trolls are to the internet, a waste of time.

Servant said Christianity was true during the time of Jesus and up and to Muhammad. What does that mean? It means whatever servant wants it to mean because it is convenient for servant to say. He in reality thinks all grace has left Christianity that we are doomed to a lesser inheritance, against what the new testament says. For the new testament does not tell us we need to have faith in a future prophet to come but that we must have faith in Christ Jesus and through him we have our reward. Bahais deny this, insisting that they need to perfect the world they are going to leave behind for better and more brilliant worlds in an infinite series of progressions towards spiritual perfection.

When bahai are forced to define terms however they want, not in the common usage, you and only you make dialogue impossible. When you insist you believe our doctrines, when you use the terms for our doctrines in totally different ways you make it impossible to have a genuine and true debate. When you say you believe in trinity, you cloud the truth. When you say you believe in resurrection, knowing what this term means for historic Christianity, WHICH YOU DO KNOW, you obfuscate. When you insist Christ saves, you know you disagree with the sense in which Christians understand it. You want us to remain in our ignorance and in our false opinions and your deliberate inability to use and define your own beliefs as opposed to those who disagree with you is proof of that.

My question remains unanswered. You want to talk about other things. You want to deny that Jesus is absolutely sufficient. You want to add to Christ and say he was not perfect, he did not atone for sins once and for all. That you need this Persian Ali to truly atone for your sins and to make you perfect. Do so, to your own destruction and follow another gospel.

 

[Servant19]

This is truly where dialogue has broken down and the parties, well one of them, just repeat themselves. Tony, you made the point that Jesus did not give the High Priest a clear answer. It was a clear enough answer that the high priest should tear his robes for the blasphemy he heard. Now if I were to tear my robe, or rather t-shirt, it would not be because you gave a clear answer but because you never give an answer in the first place. Is Christianity equally as correct as the bahai religion? Equally true, equally valid, equally beneficial? These are not hard questions. Either we are or we are not. We cannot be both untrue and true at the same time. Are the core doctrines of Christianity equally valid in the bahai universe to their doctrines? It is not a hard question. Muslims can answer it, atheists can answer it and jews can answer it. They know how to answer this sort of question but bahais are the only ones who cannot and I know why. Because you don’t want to share what you actually believe, that you actually believe Christianity a corruption, that centuries of man made Christianity have distorted true Christianity and thus the need for a revelation. You cannot deny this. Sure, you can reinterpret my words and make it seem like you disagree with this assessment but due to your inherently dishonest nature, I know what you actually believe. If there is one religion in the world which promotes obfuscation and lies it is the bahai religion, because you don’t believe people are ready for true enlightenment. You are the world religions as trolls are to the internet, a waste of time.

My question remains unanswered. You want to talk about other things. You want to deny that Jesus is absolutely sufficient. You want to add to Christ and say he was not perfect, he did not atone for sins once and for all. That you need this Persian Ali to truly atone for your sins and to make you perfect.

You keep making this error Ignatian dear friend.

There is no difference between Jesus and this “Persian” you refer to …the only difference between Baha’u’llah and Jesus is the clothes they wore, their names (which was prophecied in Revelation btw) and the age in which they were manifested, resulting in slightly modified Messages they gave from one another, but if carefully studied one cannot fairly say that they are in any way different…

…so Baha’is do not claim that the Person of Baha’u’llah ADDS to the Person of Christ…no…

The Person of Baha’u’llah IS the Person of Christ…

In fact Muhammad also, Himself declared “I am Jesus!”

(I sense you are tearing your t-shirt off at this point )



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[Servant19]

The consequence of breaking the law (grave sin) , with the requisite culpability and without repentance means the fires of Hell. Or the lowest regions of Purgatory, which is almost as bad as Hell. However, God is merciful on those who are repentant, or who are not aware of the consequences of sin, or that they are not aware that they have even committed a grave sin.
It’s not all about peace and luv. There has to be a balance between God’s Justice, and His great mercy.

And with that, I bid you goodnight. It’s getting late.

(sleep well and sweet dreams )

…exactly dear sister, and Tony was not saying anything different to this.

Tony does not deny the need for God’s justice, but HE is the one that metes out His justice. It is not for us (mere petty humans) to judge.

We must love, and when called upon within the confines of divine guidance mete out justice according to His Will. This is where we require Divine Laws…



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[IgnatianPhilo]

You keep making this error Ignatian dear friend.

There is no difference between Jesus and this “Persian” you refer to …the only difference between Baha’u’llah and Jesus is the clothes they wore, their names (which was prophecied in Revelation btw) and the age in which they were manifested, resulting in slightly modified Messages they gave from one another, but if carefully studied one cannot fairly say that they are in any way different…

…so Baha’is do not claim that the Person of Baha’u’llah ADDS to the Person of Christ…no…

The Person of Baha’u’llah IS the Person of Christ…

(I sense you are tearing your t-shirt off at this point )



.

I DON"T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS. THIS IS BABY BABBLE WHICH MEANS NOTHING.

You refuse to define how exactly your prophet is Jesus. You refuse to admit whether or not Jesus is actually God. Are you a patripassionist? You say your prophet was the father? Was the Father speaking to the son when the son was being baptized? OR was the son speaking tot he son as the father, the two being totally indistinguishable? We have attempted to go over this time and time again but you embrace a language which is constantly redefining itself and finding not commonality with what your opponents can understand.

You either do not understand how Jesus is this prophet or you do not want others to know.

AND MY QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED YET AGAIN. ARE CHRISTIANITY AND BAHAI EQUALLY TRUE? WILL I OBTAIN THE SAME AFTERLIFE YOU WILL IN YOUR RELIGION? A question which can be answered but because you don’t want to hurt our feelings, our poor sad feelings, you don’t want to answer it. Must I ask ten times for bahai to answer a question before I get a positive answer? Obviously i must.

As for tearing off my clothes I do no such thing, you aren’t worth sacrificing a five dollar T-shirt. You are worth shaking the dust off of my feet however.

 

[Denise1957]

Servant said Christianity was true during the time of Jesus and up and to Muhammad. What does that mean? It means whatever servant wants it to mean because it is convenient for servant to say. He in reality thinks all grace has left Christianity that we are doomed to a lesser inheritance, against what the new testament says. For the new testament does not tell us we need to have faith in a future prophet to come but that we must have faith in Christ Jesus and through him we have our reward. Bahais deny this, insisting that they need to perfect the world they are going to leave behind for better and more brilliant worlds in an infinite series of progressions towards spiritual perfection.

It is a common theme in new-age thought (which seems to correlate with views of Servant and Tony) that there is, as you mention above, an infinite series of progressions toward spiritual perfection, and as such, God manifested himself through the various prophets of which Jesus is just one of many. They don’t really differentiate between the various prophets, though they may have a favorite among them. Tony and Servant don’t seem to really understand Judaism or Christianity. Its supremely annoying that they try to tell us who Jesus was and is, as if we don’t really understand Him at all.

If we look at the OT, we see that God meted out His justice when his people sunk into serious sin. He usually gave them ample warning, though, to change their lives, or else. God is love, yes, but he has standards.

Jews never lost their sense of God being active in every fortune or circumstance of man’s life and in every phase of his natural surroundings. Though remote, it’s a personal God the Jews believed in, and so do Christians. God does not change or transmigrate into various forms (prophets) to suit the various peoples at various times. That’s an inconsistency which is not an attribute of God.

 

[Servant19]

I DON"T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS. THIS IS BABY BABBLE WHICH MEANS NOTHING.

You refuse to define how exactly your prophet is Jesus. You refuse to admit whether or not Jesus is actually God. Are you a patripassionist? You say your prophet was the father? Was the Father speaking to the son when the son was being baptized? OR was the son speaking tot he son as the father, the two being totally indistinguishable? We have attempted to go over this time and time again but you embrace a language which is constantly redefining itself and finding not commonality with what your opponents can understand.

You either do not understand how Jesus is this prophet or you do not want others to know.

AND MY QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED YET AGAIN. ARE CHRISTIANITY AND BAHAI EQUALLY TRUE? WILL I OBTAIN THE SAME AFTERLIFE YOU WILL IN YOUR RELIGION? A question which can be answered but because you don’t want to hurt our feelings, our poor sad feelings, you don’t want to answer it. Must I ask ten times for bahai to answer a question before I get a positive answer? Obviously i must.

As for tearing off my clothes I do no such thing, you aren’t worth sacrificing a five dollar T-shirt. You are worth shaking the dust off of my feet however.

May my life be a sacrifice for the dust off your feet Ignatian.

My sense of humour is not seen as such in your eyes it seems

Dear friend, don’t worry if it’s too difficult to grasp.

It seems you are unable to comprehend that more than one human being is capable of being the Creator of the heavens, the earth and everything between them.

To be honest, you should seriously consider Lord Krishna. He came well before Jesus and the history seems to indicate He was God Incarnate too.

iskconbirmingham.org/why-krishna-is-god

I hope and pray that this will lead to an understanding that terms such as “Lord”, “Son”, “Father”, “Jehovah” etc etc are all simply terms referring to a spiritual Plane, or Planes, of existence so far removed from us mere mortals, it’s difficult for us to know for sure what if all means. In the famous words of thd Trinitarian doctrine, “It’s a mystery”

But what I do know for sure is that the Word is the Creator of the universe and the heavens, and the Word was made flesh before Jesus (and His name was Krishna) and it was made flesh after Jesus in the form of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Very simple observations confirm this. They all manifest by differing titles, yet they all spring from the same Source…the Word.

They are all Manifestations of the Word of God.

That is as clear an answer I can give.

In terms of your afterlife fate, when I die, I’ll ask Baha’u’llah about you, and get back to you

God bless!

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[Servant19]

It is a common theme in new-age thought (which seems to correlate with views of Servant and Tony) that there is, as you mention above, an infinite series of progressions toward spiritual perfection, and as such, God manifested himself through the various prophets of which Jesus is just one of many. They don’t really differentiate between the various prophets, though they may have a favorite among them. Tony and Servant don’t seem to really understand Judaism or Christianity. Its supremely annoying that they try to tell us who Jesus was and is, as if we don’t really understand Him at all.

If we look at the OT, we see that God meted out His justice when his people sunk into serious sin. He usually gave them ample warning, though, to change their lives, or else. God is love, yes, but he has standards.

Jews never lost their sense of God being active in every fortune or circumstance of man’s life and in every phase of his natural surroundings. Though remote, it’s a personal God the Jews believed in, and so do Christians. God does not change or transmigrate into various forms (prophets) to suit the various peoples at various times. That’s an inconsistency which is not an attribute of God.

Good day to you Denise

Baha’u’llah’s teachings were revealed some 160 years ago. Any “new age” thoughts that are seen today in similar light to this are due to the billowing oceans of grace He showered upon mankind with His coming. He brought with Him a new heaven and a new earth, and indeed what a new earth it is!

Baha’u’llah did not teach pacifism. The twin pillars of justice, reward and punishment, are alive and well over here
The standards are maintained dear friend…

A personal God is indeed seen and revered in all religions. With His unknowableness comes His personal-ness. Nothing has changed dear sister

What, may I ask was the purpose of all the Old Testament Prophets? There were so many of them, why?

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[Denise1957]

What, may I ask was the purpose of all the Old Testament Prophets? There were so many of them, why?

.

To quote from the New Advent website…“The constant subjects of the great prophetic predictions of Israel, the punishment of the guilty nations, and the realizations for all the ancient promises. Directly or indirectly all the prophecies (OT) are concerned with the obstacles to be removed before the coming of the New Kingdom or with the preparation for the New and final Covenant.”

Scroll down about two-thirds of the way under the heading of:
The Teaching of the Prophets
2) The Teaching, and then read,
2b) Prophetic predictions, The Day of Yahweh, The Saved, Messianism, Eschatology, to find the quote above and the context.

newadvent.org/cathen/12477a.htm