"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church"

  • Thread starter Thread starter EvangelCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
GKC said:
The point still remains. The conclusions/recommendations/agreements/discussions/suggestions/opinions found in the Dialogues are not the Magisterium. And those participating in the Dialogues do not, thereby, have the authority to modify the Magisterium. How do you expect the Magisterium to be changed, to reflect what you see in the Dialogues?

GKC
Click to expand...
👍 🍿
 
GKC said:
The point still remains. The conclusions/recommendations/agreements/discussions/suggestions/opinions found in the Dialogues are not the Magisterium. And those participating in the Dialogues do not, thereby, have the authority to modify the Magisterium. How do you expect the Magisterium to be changed, to reflect what you see in the Dialogues?

GKC
Click to expand...
I posted some excerpts on the discussion of the Magisterium that even suggested Lutherans be a part of the teaching authority. I don’t want to sound overly enthusiastic but it seems all the major obstacles have been addressed in the Dialogue. Furthermore, I see the Dialogue as the most up-to-date catechesis for Lutherans.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I posted some excerpts on the discussion of the Magisterium that even suggested Lutherans be a part of the teaching authority. I don’t want to sound overly enthusiastic but it seems all the major obstacles have been addressed in the Dialogue. Furthermore, I see the Dialogue as the most up-to-date catechesis for Lutherans.
Click to expand...
You do, indeed, sound overly enthusiastic, at a minimum. And I seem to be unable to get across to you the point I am making in my question. My fault, doubtless. I’ll let it lie.

But, as I have said before, as soon as you see something concrete coming from the Dialogues (by which I do not mean more dialogues), with those possessing the teaching authority in the RCC making and enforcing definitive, relevant changes to the Magisterium (and do note I don’t mean words you may find in the Dialogues, but what will be in the Magisterium itself, to be affirmed by the faithful), plus any occasions of Lutherans being proclaimed a part of the RCC’s teaching authority, and participating in a subsequent ecumenical council as active participants, not observers, I most sincerely ask that you inform the board, with full specifics.

GKC
 
Just another thought on the Magisterium. Luther and the authors of Augustana acknowledged both the papacy and the magisterium as the rightful, legitimate pastoral authority of the Church; not necessary for salvation but acceptable so long as the teachings are in accord with the Gospel.

Essentially, Lutherans are re-entering the Catholic Church. What I find puzzling is why the LCMS isn’t in the vanguard for full-reunion? The first wave, so to speak. Since the Missouri Synod agrees with the Catholic church on all ethical issues.

Anyone know how many Anglican parishes have joined the ordinariate?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Just another thought on the Magisterium. Luther and the authors of Augustana acknowledged both the papacy and the magisterium as the rightful, legitimate pastoral authority of the Church; not necessary for salvation but acceptable so long as the teachings are in accord with the Gospel.

Essentially, Lutherans are re-entering the Catholic Church. What I find puzzling is why the LCMS isn’t in the vanguard for full-reunion? The first wave, so to speak. Since the Missouri Synod agrees with the Catholic church on all ethical issues.

Anyone know how many Anglican parishes have joined the ordinariate?
Click to expand...
A question I have asked a few times. Around 12+, give or take, not including any pre-existing Anglican Use parishes. AFAIK. Definitive info always appreciated, from those better informed.

GKC
 
GKC said:
A question I have asked a few times. Around 12+, give or take, not including any pre-existing Anglican Use parishes. AFAIK. Definitive info always appreciated, from those better informed.

GKC
Click to expand...
I am really surprised by that number and dismayed. What is holding up Anglo-Catholics?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I am really surprised by that number and dismayed. What is holding up Anglo-Catholics?
Click to expand...
There was never much a market for the Ordinariate in US Anglicanism, the TAC/ACA having been something of a non-starter, as they were represented . The details of that long history I do not care to review. But those who were interested in moving to Rome, and had not done so under the Pastoral Provision, have largely done so now, under the provisions of Anglicanorum Coetibus. That the numbers were smaller than some might have expected, was not a surprise to me.

But do recall that I have no firm numbers, and find them difficult to locate. I may have underestimated the true number. But, except for a few folks in the ACA, I don’t think the movement made much of an impact.

GKC
 
Interesting article including a Lutheran scholar who converted to Catholic while on the international commission on unity.
Commemoration, Not Celebration
Click to expand...
“From Conflict to Communion” makes it clear that the tone of these commemorations should be sober and appropriate rather than celebratory.
Click to expand...
“You’ll note that it never uses the word ‘celebrate.’ That’s intentional. We can engage in repentance and give thanks in certain ways and commemorate together, but the text avoids the word ‘celebrate.’ And that’s intentional,” said Michael Root, a professor at The Catholic University of America, who specializes in ecumenical theology and eschatology.
Click to expand...
Root has a compelling perspective on Catholic-Lutheran dialogue: In 2009, he was appointed a Lutheran scholar on the international commission that produced “From Conflict to Communion,” but, in 2010, he became a Catholic. He is now a Catholic scholar on the national-level dialogue conducted under the auspices of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Click to expand...
Root hailed “From Conflict to Communion” as “an important step that shows the commitment of both the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church at the international level to making the 500th anniversary of the Reformation an ecumenically positive event.”
Click to expand...
Catholic-Lutheran commemorations of the Reformation would have been unthinkable in earlier times. “We can now tell the story of the Reformation in a way both sides will recognize as accurate,” Root said. “If you look at the celebrations in 1917, 1817 and 1717, they were anti-ecumenical events, with Lutherans often celebrating it as light after darkness.”
Click to expand...
ncregister.com/daily-news/after-five-centuries-of-division-catholics-and-lutherans-consider-their-com/
Click to expand...
 
EvangelCatholic said:
The issue of transubstantiation, taken within the context of Orthodox Christians communing at Catholic altars, illustrates the willingness/ flexibility of the Roman Catholic Church to restate dogma.

The Dialogue further states that Orthodox are welcome in Catholic churches even if they don’t accept papal infallibility and suggest the same welcome be extended to Lutherans.

I was reading on the Vatican website a conclusion that mutual condemnations in the Augsburg Confession and Council of Trent no longer apply in current Lutheran-Catholic relations. The process of how “limited Eucharistic sharing” occurs is something I have no knowledge of. But I suspect resistance could occur among both Lutherans and Catholics. The ramifications of even limited intercommunion could mean that Catholics join Lutheran churches and visa versa. Or as with Anglicans who worship with Lutherans in joint parishes.
Click to expand...
Not meaning to harp-on the Orthodox, but after reading this and many of your other posts I have to wonder:What is it that (you believe) we Catholics and Lutherans have that the Orthodox do not? I’m not suggesting that the Orthodox are perfect, of course, but to me it really seems naive to think that Catholics and Lutherans are going to get-together in a way that the Orthodox won’t. (Edit: I typed this prior to reading all of your posts. Now it seems a bit pointless, but I’ll hit “Submit” just for the heck of it.)
 
Mike_SoCal said:
The New testament church was not familiar with our denominational titles.
Click to expand...
Stick around for a while, and I’m sure you’ll see the very same argument made by Catholics against protestants.

P.S. After reading the posts that came after this ^^ one, I realize that you probably did see it, just a little while ago. 🙂
 
codefro said:
30+.

usordinariate.org/index.cfm?load=page&page=33&search=parish

Still growing.
Click to expand...
I thank you for that. But the list appears to include at least some of the preexisiting Anglican Use parishes, communties, and missions. Those would not be Anglican parishes, that joined the Ordinariate, but RC parishes that were brought into it. What I took the question to be was how many formerly (before Anglicanorum Coetibus) Anglican parishes, either Episcopal or perhaps Continuum, had joined. A question I am still interested in. I can recall hearing (no details left in the memory) of perhaps 6-8 such, and I assume I missed others. Bladesburg was definitely one; the first, I believe.

Personally, I would still like to know the number of such parishes, and their source (i.e., how many of the ACA parishes actually made the move.

Thank you again.

GKC
 
GKC said:
I thank you for that. But the list appears to include at least some of the preexisiting Anglican Use parishes, communties, and missions. Those would not be Anglican parishes, that joined the Ordinariate, but RC parishes that were brought into it. What I took the question to be was how many formerly (before Anglicanorum Coetibus) Anglican parishes, either Episcopal or perhaps Continuum, had joined. A question I am still interested in. I can recall hearing (no details left in the memory) of perhaps 6-8 such, and I assume I missed others. Bladesburg was definitely one; the first, I believe.

Personally, I would still like to know the number of such parishes, and their source (i.e., how many of the ACA parishes actually made the move.

Thank you again.

GKC
Click to expand...
I recall hearing that about one-fourth of the ACA’s 3000ish members went to Rome. Any idea if that is accurate?
 
Peter_J said:
I recall hearing that about one-fourth of the ACA’s 3000ish members went to Rome. Any idea if that is accurate?
Click to expand...
One of the four dioceses of the ACA did leave for Rome, IIRC. I have no idea as to the numbers.

In fact, a total on the numbers of parishioners, in addition to the number of parishes, as detailed above, would also interest me. How many parishioners, post AC, came, from an established Anglican origin?

GKC
 
Peter_J said:
I’m probably going to feel stupid for even saying this, but you realize that neither of you are even Anglican?
Click to expand...
You are correct to caution non-Anglicans to not speak for the Anglican Communion. I have learned so much on CAF and realize how little I know about other Christian traditions. To be honest, I have participated in only one Lutheran-Episcopal joint Eucharist and several wonderful visits to St John the Divine cathedral. Other than family ties with Catholics, my personal ecumenism with both Episcopalians and Catholics have been during retreats. Once quite active in the Cursillo movement, I interacted intimately with other Christians. Praying together and sharing the holy Sacrament makes it difficult to reject others so my perspective may be a bit enthusiastic.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
You are correct to caution non-Anglicans to not speak for the Anglican Communion. I have learned so much on CAF and realize how little I know about other Christian traditions. To be honest, I have participated in only one Lutheran-Episcopal joint Eucharist and several wonderful visits to St John the Divine cathedral. Other than family ties with Catholics, my personal ecumenism with both Episcopalians and Catholics have been during retreats. Once quite active in the Cursillo movement, I interacted intimately with other Christians. Praying together and sharing the holy Sacrament makes it difficult to reject others so my perspective may be a bit enthusiastic.
Click to expand...
Moreover, Anglicans don’t speak with one voice.

Motley.

GKC
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top