One of the men who threw the Idols (Pachamama) in the Tiber speaks!

[Divine3]

God bless Austria…

 

[goout]

It is not stealing. See my post (Post #86) above.

Under normal circumstances, yes. Under the present circumstances, where the prelates and authorities you want to raise your objection to, are the ones disregarding the first commandment and canon law, then good luck. What the Austrians did was appropriate. By throwing the idols into the Tiber, they gave a message that both the Pope and the whole world heard.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

[2401] The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one’s neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods. It commands justice and charity in the care of earthly goods and the fruits of men’s labor. For the sake of the common good, it requires respect for the universal destination of goods and respect for the right to private property. Christian life strives to order this world’s goods to God and to fraternal charity.

Heads up:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm

[1756] It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

I happen to agree with many people that the statuary was inappropriate for display in a Catholic Church or for use in a Catholic prayer ceremony.
But because a fringe <1% element of nut jobs has to make a self-aggrandizing scene and post it on social media, we now have an entrenched circus where there ought to be serious discussion.
And the people who’s minds you’d like to change are now entrenched in their position.
This was not a productive action. It was immature and self-aggrandizing.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Under normal circumstances, yes. Under the present circumstances, where the prelates and authorities you want to raise your objection to, are the ones disregarding the first commandment and canon law, then good luck. What the Austrians did was appropriate. By throwing the idols into the Tiber, they gave a message that both the Pope and the whole world heard.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Respect for the goods of others

2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft , that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.

2409 Even if it does not contradict the provisions of civil law, any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment: thus, deliberate retention of goods lent or of objects lost; business fraud; paying unjust wages; forcing up prices by taking advantage of the ignorance or hardship of another

 

[GiftofMercy]

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism . It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

 

[GiftofMercy]

So the moral dilemna here is Gods law over mans law. Mans law being removal of an idol = theft, Gods law exemplified in catechism on Idolatry

 

[goout]

Using some of the thinking here:
Jesus would have gathered his followers, went down to the temple, stole various items and thrown them into the Jordan to score points for his way.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Pope Francis specifically said it was done not with an idolatrous intent. So therefore no pagan worship

 

[GiftofMercy]

Pope Francis specifically said it was done not with an idolatrous intent. So therefore no pagan worship

No this not what his specific words were. get the exact quote

And this does not discharge the clegy from the scandal ongoing over this

 

[goout]

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism . It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

And who debates this?

[1756] It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

the guy could have done something really productive, but instead he got caught up with his passions.

 

[GiftofMercy]

shall we pull out the teachings on scandal?

i was on board with the entire thing until the Vatican started contradicting itself it said, yes Virgin Mary, then not the Virgin Mary, in official statements. That alone is suspect

Then finally my Pope himself calls these things P…amama. the vatican should apologise to me the faithful for the distress and scandal this has caused the laity.

several clergy claim these things were innocently bought at a market , without knowing too much about them, and rather then doing their own research, and thinking with wisdom about using them, they just go ahead and do it.

we have clergy all over the place now , who are in the know, condeming these p…manas.

And as we all know , gentile gods, false gods are demons.

at best it was an incredibly unwise unresearched thing to do, at worst, people knowingly did it

just because my pope says HIS intention was not xy or z, he does not speak for everyone associated with the synod

i can go to a market and innocently buy a crystal, no intentions, then later realise new age is pagan and occult

 

[GiftofMercy]

I have a very uneasy feeling about the increasing lack of prudence in these zealots. Where next. I hope they don’t inspire one of these dangerous fools to kill our beloved Pope.

I am a zealot for the 10 commandments and for accuracy.

It was an incredibly unwise and unresearched thing to do. It has scandalised so many as much as the sex abuse scandal has. get out there and talk to catholics in real life, the sentiments expressed on caf are being expresses in parishes by the laity as well, both OF and EF

 

[JimmyDFG]

Pope Francis said:
"Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the pachamama statues that were removed from the Church at Traspontina, which were there without idolatrous intentions and were thrown into the Tiber.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

I have a very uneasy feeling about the increasing lack of prudence in these zealots. Where next. I hope they don’t inspire one of these dangerous fools to kill our beloved Pope.

I am a zealot for the 10 commandments and for accuracy.

It was an incredibly unwise and unresearched thing to do. It has scandalised so many as much as the sex abuse scandal has. get out there and talk to catholics in real life, the sentiments expressed on caf are being expresses in parishes by the laity as well, both OF and EF

I have only found it ‘scandalising’ a certain type. 2 of my kids are very involved in the diocesan youth ministry and report that no one is talking about it. We are faithful to Pope Francis to the end and trust him in leading us in these times of “the last things” by challenging us to grow in discernment.

 

[GiftofMercy]

ope Francis said:
"Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the pachamama statues that were removed from the Church at Traspontina, which were there without idolatrous intentions and were thrown into the Tiber.

he is not speaking for everyone. just himself

we cannot conflate this statement

and in light of the vaticans contradictory statements on whether it represented the Virgin Mary, with a yes at first, then a no,

its quite obvious there is no communication. also the vatican made statements its not p…mama, then the Pope himself acknowledges it is and then qualifies it with his intentions were good.

one word scandal. acknowledge the scandal this has caused and deal with it.

I want my Pope to do that. I and many others are scandalised

 

[JimmyDFG]

And this does not discharge the clegy from the scandal ongoing over this

Feels like Deja vu
Can you get quotes from those Natives and clergy (at the time in question), verifying that they rendered adoration to idols that would verify that they are idolaters??

 

[GiftofMercy]

Feels like Deja vu
Can you get quotes from those Natives and clergy (at the time in question), verifying that they rendered adoration to idols that would verify that they are idolaters??

The word native is as offensive as the N word.

i will wait for you to get quotes rendering the people in the ceremony were not idolising , those on the ground, those turning pews away from the tabernacle and alters and into a circle with a candle lit pa…mama at the centre and praying or whatever they were doung

In A Church

 

[JimmyDFG]

he is not speaking for everyone. just himself

we cannot conflate this statement

So when the pope calls the statue Pachamama that’s his name for it, just for himself.
Or are you to believe what you want to hear and dismiss what you don’t like?

 

[JimmyDFG]

The word native is as offensive as the N word.

Are you sure about that? Lol
You’re grasping at straws

 

[Babaganoush]

It is better that there should be controversy than that idols should be worshiped in a Catholic Church.

 

[GiftofMercy]

So when the pope calls the statue Pachamama that’s his name for it, just for himself.
Or are you to believe what you want to hear and dismiss what you don’t like?

when my pope calls it by its name, the name known by those who know of it, and then says

no idoltorous intentions,

first he is using its title, its name, what it is, then he has to qualify this by saying no intentions, he cannot speak for everyone there, he does not. and clearly with what happens with candle lighting and pew turning in a church,

there is a lot of confusion and scandal. I trust you are not condoning the scandal

just as the sex abuse scandal was acknowledged, this scandal also should be.

Yes it happened, yes it is a p…mama, regardless of my intentions, it caused scandal

that is what leaders do