One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

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I gave you the source material for Trillions of years. It is not my claim.

How many random shots will it take to make a useful protein fold in your best estimation? How long to make just one?
You gave me a source, but it does not represent the entire scientific community.
Think about it, if the “Trillions of years” was acknowledged by most scientists,
then the dissent from evolution would be more apparent, but it is still favored
amon most scientists, but you say for no good reason?
 
I do not, but even if I did, Intelligent Design by default says, “Because that’s how the
Designer designed it,” going back to the fact that Intelligent Design is non-falsifiable.
What is the movement proof for God?

How can we know the purpose of a designer? We know the purpose of human designs all the time. Some are obvious. Television for instance is not for hitting a baseball.

What is the purpose of DNA? We can reasonably conclude it is not for hitting a baseball among other things. As we eliminate what it is not for, we start to narrow down what it might be for.
 
Is your conclusion they detected design, or that the elements did it?
My answer for now: Elements.
My answer may expand depending on your response to it.
ID the science makes no claim who the designer is.
Because IDists want to be accepted by the scientific community.
The implications indeed are dire for the god of BUC.
You say “god of BUC”, I say “God whose will cannot be understood by his creations.”

Does the ant understand that an ant farm was made by humans? No, it doesn’t
have the capacity to understand such things. We are less than ants compared
to God, and people are seriously attempting to do with creation what ants can’t
do with an ant farm.
 
Yup, that is how it starts. One scientist. Big Bang? Megaflood? I could go on.
I’ll make a deal with you then: When Intelligent Design is accepted by
the Scientific Community as a science, I might just accept it as well.
 
What is the movement proof for God?

How can we know the purpose of a designer? We know the purpose of human designs all the time. Some are obvious. Television for instance is not for hitting a baseball.

What is the purpose of DNA? We can reasonably conclude it is not for hitting a baseball among other things. As we eliminate what it is not for, we start to narrow down what it might be for.
How does any of that address my point? “Movement proof?” What? :confused:
 
You gave me a source, but it does not represent the entire scientific community.
Think about it, if the “Trillions of years” was acknowledged by most scientists,
then the dissent from evolution would be more apparent, but it is still favored
amon most scientists, but you say for no good reason?
You will just have to wait and be patient then. At least you should now be able to acknowledge there is some dissent in science, a crack in the foundation so to speak. Will they patch it or will it get wider? I submit it will cause the foundation to crumble. But, we will just have to wait and see.
 
You will just have to wait and be patient then. At least you should now be able to acknowledge there is some dissent in science, a crack in the foundation so to speak. Will they patch it or will it get wider? I submit it will cause the foundation to crumble. But, we will just have to wait and see.
Are you going to address my other post on the last page that you conveniently ignored? You are not displaying much intellectual honesty, I have now critiqued Intelligent Design upon scientific, metaphysical, and logical grounds numerous times and you seem intent on ignoring every single post that offers a more thorough critique.

Are you cherry picking which posts you respond to so you don’t have to deal with serious criticism?
 
My answer for now: Elements.
My answer may expand depending on your response to it.

Because IDists want to be accepted by the scientific community.

You say “god of BUC”, I say “God whose will cannot be understood by his creations.”

Does the ant understand that an ant farm was made by humans? No, it doesn’t
have the capacity to understand such things. We are less than ants compared
to God, and people are seriously attempting to do with creation what ants can’t
do with an ant farm.
The elements did this? “Aztecs discover the abandoned city of Teotihuacán.” Seriously?

Exactly. They want to be accepted. Bingo. :clapping: You must agree the scientific community is setting obstacles and it should. But you must agree at least some scientists are shuddering at the thought of what it means to their atheism.

I agree with the last statement. Philosophers would be looking for God’s signature in creation.
 
An implication of any conscious designer invalidates a hypothesis that is supposed to explain the natural world. The reason is that a consciousness is by nature unpredictable. One feature of any successful hypothesis is that it makes testable predictions. In the case of evolution, one of these predictions is that we should see a gradual change in the physical features of creatures as we track their lineage back through time. In the case of evolution, that prediction has been borne out. To take whales as an example, we can track their progression from land-dwelling foxlike predators all the way to the modern forms. Should we find a whale with fully-modern features alongside one of their ancestors, then the prediction has failed the test.

In the case of ID, the fact that there is a conscious intelligence controlling the process as a positive factor makes it pass any test. Taking the whale as an example again, the finding of a modern form doesn’t mean that the test failed, because it simply means that the “designer” chose differently than we thought.
Let’s have a peek at some of the presumptions you hold so dear before we make any erroneous conclusions about “the case of ID.”

First, let’s distinguish between how “a cause of” and “a reason for” can both operate as “explanations of.”

You seem to rule out consciousness as a possible explanation because it is unpredictable. I would disagree, it is not inherently unpredictable and even if it were, ID does not make any claims about consciousness, you do.

ID claims that intelligence or a process of reasoning can be used to explain the origin of genetic code because material causes are insufficient to do so. Proponents of the thesis go to great lengths to demonstrate that and ought not be dismissed on frivolous grounds.

As an example of the distinction between material causes and intelligence as a cause consider the following.

You created a password and username to have entry into this forum. Those two items are examples of specified information. If we try to gain a full explanation for why your username and password are set to the exact specifications that they are, material causes do not provide a sufficient explanation. Sure, you used your fingers on a keyboard, touchpad or touchscreen to do so and the electronics of the device transferred your keystrokes into the processing unit and onto to the CAF server, but those “material” causes to not explain why the upper case M is followed by an o is followed by an n, etc. The explanation for the order or sequence of those letters can only come with reference to an intelligent designer who had “reasons for” choosing the order he did. You had your reasons. The fact that no one else may ever know those reasons does not nullify the explanatory potential of “intelligence.” As intelligent beings, we “know” that only intelligence could possibly have created the order of letters in your username because NO OTHER causal explanation can do so.

We need not know your precise reasons for setting the letters in that order, but that simple fact does not disqualify us from inferring that the letters could ONLY have been set in that manner.

We certainly CANNOT conclude that intelligence could NOT have set your user name BECAUSE intelligence is not predictable. We cannot predict what you as an intelligent being will set your user name to, but THAT does not mean we cannot infer that an intelligent being did, in fact, set the user name. Obviously, YOU did and presumably you are intelligent and used your intelligence (aka the ability to specify reasons for) to do so.

An “explanation for” can legitimately be a material cause or, in the case of intelligence, a “reason for.” You had a “reason for” setting the open fields of the user name space to Monkey1976. We know material causes cannot sufficiently explain why the order of letters is set the way it has been, so we legitimately can infer an intelligent designer did so for “reasons” which yet require explanation. However, merely because those “reasons” require further analysis does NOT negate the plausibility that intelligence could be a possible explanation. “Reasons for” act as sufficient explanations all of the time. Wherever material causes cannot fully explain the way things are, we are not justified in denying the possibility that a “reason for” might just suffice as an explanation.

This is not an argument from ignorance, it is an inference to the best explanation. Just as in all scientific pursuits, the best explanation stands until a better one can be offered.

In the case of genetic code, the similarity of DNA with specified complex codes in use all the time by intelligent human agents and the fact that NO chemical or physical causes explain the critical ordering of the nucleotide bases along the spine of the DNA molecule means that some other explanation must be sought (by the principle of sufficient reason.) Intelligence is a plausible explanation because we know that “reasons for” can operate as sufficient explanations for material events even though reasons are not material causes.

Clearly, material causes do not explain every physical event. They don’t explain why Monkey1976 is your user name, for example.
 
Are you going to address my other post on the last page that you conveniently ignored? You are not displaying much intellectual honesty, I have now critiqued Intelligent Design upon scientific, metaphysical, and logical grounds numerous times and you seem intent on ignoring every single post that offers a more thorough critique.

Are you cherry picking which posts you respond to so you don’t have to deal with serious criticism?
Which post #?
 
That is an Argument from Ignorance: it is stipulating that because we can not identify a material cause there can not be a material cause, which does not logically follow.
No the claim is that material causes do not and cannot explain the level of specified complex information in genetic code. Not an argument from ignorance, but, rather, an inference to the the best explanation.

The onus is on Darwinian evolutionists to show a material cause could possibly arrange the nucleotide bases as they have been. Just as the onus would be on you to show that a material cause better explains my contention that Monkey1976 intelligently designed his user name according to a process of reasoning rather than as a result of material causation. You cannot assume material causes serve as a better explanation without showing they do.

As Monkey1976 why his username is set to that. He will, if he wants to, give you “REASONS” not a causal material explanation.
 
I was going up that road. Information only comes from information and information only comes from a mind.
Where is the mind that “designed” the x-band antenna used by the Space Technology 5 mission? The researchers first tried to limit it to a slightly conventional design using a specified number of branches, as used in all human-designed x-band antennas of similar capabilities. They then removed all limitations other than raw capability, and the computers produced a radically new design using only one branch that was far lighter than anything that had been designed by humans.

Where is the mind that produced the tone discriminator of Dr. Adrian Thompson’s thesis? Given a completely random group of programmable gate arrays and a simple specified capability, the computers again produced something that would have been impossible for a human designer. The final design not only included far fewer logic gates than was thought possible, but it actually used physical properties intrinsic to the chips used for the experiment that were so specific that the design would not work even on an identical chip from the same manufacturer - something that a human designer would never be able to do.

In both cases, the algorithms were given nothing more than a final capability and a random group of initial states. There was no indication of what the final product would look like at all other than it would perform the specified function. In Dr. Thompson’s case, the “final” design was reached after only a few thousand generations. In the case of NASA’s new antennas, the results were reached after less than two hundred generations. Read the papers, and explain where the information of the final design - something unspecified in the initial parameters - came from.
 
That is an Argument from Ignorance: it is stipulating that because we can not identify a material cause there can not be a material cause, which does not logically follow. We then must accept that Intelligent Design does no better at demonstrating the existence of a transcendent Design, then it does the possibility of an extraterrestrial designer.

We then must deal with as Catholics that Intelligent Design uses a metaphysical framework that is incompatible with traditional Catholic Theology and Philosophy, any attempt to fuse the two systems leads you to incoherency and inconsistency. May I suggest that instead of relying of a problematic argument from Evolution, we look to the Cosmological Constants? If you can infer purpose, rather than random chance from the data available in modern cosmology (which you can) this is compatible with the classical Metaphysics and is a more solid piece of Philosophy.

Answer me two questions:

Does Intelligent Design rely upon the supposition that because we can not know the material cause, no material cause exists? If, yes it is an argument form ignorance by definition and therefore is an invalid argument. If no, there is no way to prove or justify your premise and therefore the argument is invalid.
Can Intelligent Design be falsified? Meaning is there any specific set of data that is conceivable (I’m using this in its technical meaning) that would demonstrate that ID is false? If no, Intelligent Design is not a scientific hypothesis. I would concede however that it is a Philosophical argument, and not a scientific one, which relies upon inductive reasoning. There is much however to be said about the deistic metaphysical framework upon which it relies, alongside the problematic Cartesian assumptions it takes from modern science.
This is the most recent, I have already posted articles from Feser, Leftow, & others that have commented on the Thomistic gripes with Intelligent Design: that within the metaphysical framework of Classical Theism (which the Church dogmatically follows) Intelligent Design is incoherent.
 
It seems we also have a misunderstanding of the Burden of Proof: the burden of proof is on anyone that makes a positive claim (a claim to knowledge) which ID advocates do. ID advocates argue that chance can not explain the complex nature of biological life, this claim is presupposed rather than demonstrated and is therefore begging the question.
 
Answer me two questions:

Does Intelligent Design rely upon the supposition that because we can not know the material cause, no material cause exists? If, yes it is an argument form ignorance by definition and therefore is an invalid argument. If no, there is no way to prove or justify your premise and therefore the argument is invalid.
The supposition is NOT that we cannot know the material cause, the supposition is that material causation cannot explain the specified complexity of genetic code, just as material causation does not explain why your username and password are set the way they are.

Eliminative materialism would have to be assumed to think material causes actually do explain all events but we don’t fully know how. As it stands, intelligent “reasoning” better explains the specified numbers and letters in your user name, material causes do not. Ditto for genetic code.

When eliminative materialists succeed in reducing all events to material causation, Darwinist evolutionists would have a case, but it hasn’t, so they don’t
Can Intelligent Design be falsified? Meaning is there any specific set of data that is conceivable (I’m using this in its technical meaning) that would demonstrate that ID is false? If no, Intelligent Design is not a scientific hypothesis. I would concede however that it is a Philosophical argument, and not a scientific one, which relies upon inductive reasoning. There is much however to be said about the deistic metaphysical framework upon which it relies, alongside the problematic Cartesian assumptions it takes from modern science.
Of course it CAN be falsified by showing that all explanations are reducible to material causation. That would mean “reasoning” as an effective means by which action results as an aspect of human agency would be illusory and impotent since human agency would be strictly the result of underlying material causes. Darwinian evolution assumes eliminative materialism by assuming that only material causation can be explanatory.

Contrary to what you claimed, ID does not rely on Cartesian dualism. It does rely on intelligence as having active agency in the cosmos, but that is also assumed under Thomistic metaphysics. God is pure act, not because he is the material cause in nature, but because he accounts for its form which actualizes its existence.
 
The supposition is NOT that we cannot know the material cause, the supposition is that material causation cannot explain the specified complexity of genetic code, just as material causation does not explain why your username and password are set the way they are.

Eliminative materialism would have to be assumed to think material causes actually do explain all events but we don’t fully know how. As it stands, intelligent “reasoning” better explains the specified numbers and letters in your user name, material causes do not. Ditto for genetic code.

When eliminative materialists succeed in reducing all events to material causation, Darwinist evolutionists would have a case, but it hasn’t, so they don’t
Evolution does not assume eliminative materialism, as that is a radical school of materialism that has fell out of favour due to being logically absurd. ‘Physicalism’ would better describe the current dominant school of materialism, which is plagued by its own problems.

Can you please demonstrate that material causes are not sufficient? If you can’t, you are arguing from ignorance.
Peter Plato:
Of course it CAN be falsified by showing that all explanations are reducible to material causation. That would mean “reasoning” as an effective means by which action results as an aspect of human agency would be illusory and impotent since human agency would be strictly the result of underlying material causes. Darwinian evolution assumes eliminative materialism by assuming that only material causation can be explanatory.

Contrary to what you claimed, ID does not rely on Cartesian dualism. It does rely on intelligence as having active agency in the cosmos, but that is also assumed under Thomistic metaphysics. God is pure act, not because he is the material cause in nature, but because he accounts for its form which actualizes its existence.
ID does in fact rely upon the Cartesian framework, why do you think it relies on the metaphors of a designer rather than a sustainer? It is assuming the inherent mechanistic nature of matter, whilst Thomists and classical philosophers all see an inherent purpose in the actions of matter. There is a big difference between the two and ID is incompatible with the Thomistic framework due to the assumptions it takes on from modern philosophy. Numerous Philosophers throughout the past 200 years have commented on this: Thomists, Naturalists, Empiricists, et al.

I assume that even demonstrating that material causation is sufficient wouldn’t be enough to actually falsify ID, as then you would just move on to asking for an explanatory cause. Which just moves the goalposts.
 
I’ll make a deal with you then: When Intelligent Design is accepted by
the Scientific Community as a science, I might just accept it as well.
So NOT because you understand it or agree with it, but BECAUSE it has been accepted. Why have you bothered to argue since your argument amounts to “because the scientific community rejects it?”

The scientific community has constantly revised what it accepts and rejects. You are just along for the thrill of the ride with no compulsion to understand what it is you are riding on, where it is heading or why you are going.

There is no point discussing such issues with you, because you merely placehold “current accepted science” for no reason except that it is currently accepted.

You can safely be ignored, then.
 
So NOT because you understand it or agree with it, but BECAUSE it has been accepted. Why have you bothered to argue since your argument amounts to “because the scientific community rejects it?”

The scientific community has constantly revised what it accepts and rejects. You are just along for the thrill of the ride with no compulsion to understand what it is you are riding on, where it is heading or why you are going.

There is no point discussing such issues with you, because you merely placehold “current accepted science” for no reason except that it is currently accepted.

You can safely be ignored, then.
Well this has to be the worst strawman I have ever seen, do you understand what it means to be upholded as a ‘theory’ in the Natural Sciences?
 
Concerning human evolution, the Church has a definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. ~taken from Catholic Answers
 
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