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stewstew03
Guest
All the “other stuff” is God’s Word. It is Truth.
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openmind77
Guest
John 6? I think you mean John 3:16? I am not sure those were Jesus’s exact words. Anyway, those are not instructions - sounds more like encouragement.
Thanks for the information on the soul and what it does and does not do,
But like I said our current life is informed and influenced by all our past lives through the soul that knows them all.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yep. John 6.
Please see my references again.
And yet you believe that Matthew 25 was Jesus’ exact words.
How do you know?
It’s absolutely inutile for our soul to “know them all” if the soul does not speak to the conscious brain and let us know what our previous mistakes were.
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tonyfish58
Guest
Interesting I must say, but a concept that still has many meanings - I had not seen this before so looked at this link - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision
What I did find most Interesting was this;
"Pope John XXII and the Beatific Vision controversy
Pope John XXII (1316–1334) caused a controversy involving the Beatific Vision. He said not as Pope but as a private theologian that the saved do not attain the Beatific Vision until Judgment Day, a view more consistent with soul sleep.[14] The general understanding at the time was that the saved attained Heaven after being purified and before Judgment Day. He never proclaimed his belief as doctrine but rather as an opinion (see ex cathedra, as defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870).
The Sacred College of Cardinals held a consistory on the problem in January 1334, and Pope John backed away from his novel views to the more standard understanding".
This was amazing vision 700 years ago!
God Bless and Regards Tony
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Samuel_Maynes
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IgnatianPhilo, you may have to adjust your definitions a bit, but I’m not making this stuff up. Clearly, God has manifested himself through several historic messengers. The diversity of world religions may very well be rooted in the diversity of the divine life itself. Thus, a deeper understanding of the Trinity might include a synthesis of all that God has revealed of himself, as contained in the wisdom of all the world’s major religions.
If you read the Preview on my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, you will see that I am merely expanding on what is already inherent (but sometimes obscured or hidden) in the orthodox concept of the Trinity. Despite apparent differences, the underlying similarities among religions suggest the possibility that they may all be merely different facets of the same multi-dimensional reality. It is only common sense that the Trinity would reveal itself in three basic religious attitudes to the Absolute. Indeed, when we examine world religions, we see in the personalities they portray and the language they use, a reflection of one or other (or some combination) of the three divine psychological persona.
In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universal Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.
Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca
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openmind77
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John 6 has a lot of stuff, I am not sure what you are talking about. I never denied the divinity of Jesus and his ability to perform miracles if that is what you mean.
But John 6 does not say that people who follow other religions are not saved (if that is what you mean)
I am sorry that you as a person are so independent of your soul. It is usually quite a misfortune to be like that.
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PRmerger
Guest
Of course. That is very Catholic of you to look at it in that way.
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PRmerger
Guest
Did you look at my reference?
Also, can you please tell me how you know that Jesus actually said the words in Matthew 25, but that He didn’t actually say the words in John 3?
Oh, I have never said that I am a person “so independent of” my soul. But I am certain that my soul does not speak to me and tell me of my mistakes in my past life…and I am certain that your soul does not do that to you either.
Thus, it’s a completely useless function to have a soul with “memory”, but an inability to let our present life in on what these memories are.
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joe371
Guest
In terms of invincible ignorance, PRmerger would agree with you, as per the CCC:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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openmind77
Guest
Oh, you mean you reference- “By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)”. ?
But that does not mean you are not saved if you don’t eat/drink his flesh/blood (BTW, that sounds terrible to a vegetarian).
John 3:16 is strangely in the third person - they could have been his words, but I am not sure
I am glad you are certain about how the soul influences and that it does not involve past lives in any way - few people are so spiritually advanced that they are aware how their soul influences them.
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PRmerger
Guest
Egg-zactly.
The text says that if one does not do this, he cannot have eternal life.
QED.
Irrelevant.
If we are commanded to do it, do it we must.
Your objection could be paralleled with: BTW it sounds terrible that we have to feed the hungry and clothe the naked to a narcissist.
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PRmerger
Guest
Are you one of those people whose soul has spoken to your conscious mind and has told you what mistakes you made in your past life?
If so, what was your past life, and what mistakes did you make?
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openmind77
Guest
Don’t put words in Jesus’s mouth. He does not say who can NOT have eternal life. In which verse did you read that?
Just making an observation, that is all. Few other words in the NT turn me off more.
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PRmerger
Guest
Of course He does, openmind.
I don’t think you know our Scriptures as well as you ought, if you’re going to be coming to a Catholic forum and discussing what Jesus said with us.
“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.”–John 6:53
biblehub.com/nlt/john/6.htm
What would you say to a person who says that the command of Jesus to feed the poor turns him off?
Does he get to pick and choose which words from God he can follow?
Can he create a god that conforms to all of his own likings? Yes, or no, openmind?
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openmind77
Guest
In almost all the translations the word ‘eternal’ does not even appear. Seems like somebody just slipped it in there in one case to put words into Jesus’s mouth. He is just talking to the people present, not making any sweeping statement, about ‘eternal’ life.
Really shameful to add your own words like ‘eternal’ to a sentence supposedly spoken by God.
Matthew 25:46 clearly says what happens to people who do not want to feed the poor. That is not a made up statement like ‘eternal’ life in John 6:53
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daler
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Hello PR,
. Long time no see. Hope you and your family are well.
. I am catching up with some of the dialogue on the threads. This topic is of interest. My perspective is influenced by the commentary given by Abdul Baha on the subject, for which a link is provided below. I would be most interested in your thoughts.
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-21.html
.
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PRmerger
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Let’s say that we remove the word “eternal”.
What other life could Jesus be speaking about?
It can’t be “mortal” life, because, clearly, for thousands of years before, as well as thousands of years afterwards, people have NOT been eating His flesh and drinking His blood, and still continuing with their mortal life.
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PRmerger
Guest
Do people get to pick and choose what commands they want to follow, esp. if they are “turned off” by a particular command?
Yes, or no?
Be careful, openmind. You are speaking about Sacred Scripture here. Something that is divinely revealed.
To refer to it as a “made up statement” could be construed as contempt for Catholicism–something that is banned by the CAFs. It would be a shame for you to have to leave the CAFs, for it is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgable Catholics.
So I suggest you remember that the words of Scripture are, well, the Word of God.
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PRmerger
Guest
Thanks, friend.
Could you please cite a particular comment there that you are interested in discussing?
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openmind77
Guest
He is indeed talking about about your mortal life on earth. It does not mean life would not exist without the communion, but that it would be enhanced by it - that is all.Let’s say that we remove the word “eternal”.
What other life could Jesus be speaking about?
It can’t be “mortal” life, because, clearly, for thousands of years before, as well as thousands of years afterwards, people have NOT been eating His flesh and drinking His blood, and still continuing with their mortal life.
You don’t get to pick and choose Jesus’s words, but you should not read into them something which is not clearly stated.
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