S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Calvin was Catholic?! Good for him!Correct; it’s Calvin who follows God’s teachings.
- Status
S
sandusky
Guest
I believe all of the reformers were Catholic; weren’t they?Calvin was Catholic?! Good for him!
M
mikeledes
Guest
These are the terms Christ uses in John 15:
1)** In Me**
Biblical Definition: A spiritual and salvific union with Christ. Variants include “in Him”, “in the Son”, “in Christ.”
- Cast/throw into the fire
One word can have several meanings. For example, the word “trinity” can mean three of anything. However, when you add a word to it and say “The Trinity,” that phrase has one specific meaning. The word “in” and “Christ” appear separately in the Bible and each one can be used without necessarily discussing a person’s spiritual status. However, when these two words combine and form “in Christ,” there is only one Biblical meaning. When the word “fire” appears in the Bible, it can mean many things (from literal to symbolic). However, when the Bible combines “fire” with “cast/thrown into” to form “cast/thrown into the fire”, that phrase has one * consistent * meaning and that’s eternal damnation. I mentioned that “ballo” is used because there are other words for “cast” in Greek: bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=cast&version=kjv&type=eng
Jesus has defined “in me” as a salvific union with Christ and “cast into the fire” as eternal damnation - as demonstrated by all the verses I quoted and accepted by many Calvinists. So when we see Jesus say in John 15:6
** 6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.**
We know that the person in question is a genuine Christian - a fact you have accepted - because a person cannot abide/continue in Christ unless you already are in Christ and we know that he is described as being “thrown away,” drying up, and “cast into the fire.” And we know that the phrase “cast into the fire” means eternal damnation because that is how Jesus always uses that phrase in the Gospels - a fact accepted by many Calvinists - and that is the way the apostles would have understood it.
Now I ask, what is he being “thrown away” from? The only logical and consistent answer is the Vine. And what does the Vine represent? CHRIST! So he is clearly being thrown away from Christ. What is the result of this throwing away? Jesus says that he “dries up.” A branch that is cut off from a vine logically withers because it is cut off from its source of life. Hence, if the person “dries up”, it is because he has been cut off from the source of life. What happens after the “drying up?” He is cast into the fire. What is the established meaning of that phrase? Eternal damnation. So the person in this verse starts off in Christ, is “thrown away”/ cut off, dries up as a result, and ends in eternal fire. This cannot be any clearer. Any other interpretation does violence to the text. You even have Jesus saying that “they gather them and cast into the fire.” That is a clear reference to what He said earlier about sending forth his angels who gather the wicked and cast them into the fire. The fact that genuine Christians can be cut off from Christ and thus fall from grace is reaffirmed by Paul himself in Galatians 5:4, which also serves to qualify what he said in Ephesians:
** 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.**
Regarding the verse in John 10, I have addressed that several times. Everything happens in accordance with the will of God (active vs. permissive will, etc.). The word “snatch” - or “harpazo” in Greek - means to take by force and fundamentally means to overpower. bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=726&version=kjv We see this word used in Matthew 12:29
**29"Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off (harpazo) his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. **
There is no one who can overpower God, who can make Him do something against His will. There is no one who can forcefully rip off any branches from the Vine. The power to “engraft” or “take away” is an exclusively divine prerogative and He alone establishes the conditions in which He exercises it. The fact that the ‘cut off’ branches were genuinely incorporated into Christ, truly engrafted into the True Vine by God Himself (i.e. “in me”) indicates that they were predestined by God to be a member of Christ’s mystical body. Ptherwise, they wouldn’t even be there. The fact that it is God Himself - in His role as “vinedresser” who “takes away” - which is the standard translation of “airo” found in every respected Bible translation (NASB, KJV, NIV, etc,) - those branches that do not abide in Christ and that they are cast by a “they” (i.e. angels) into the fire indicates that they were simply not predestined to glory. All those who are predestined to glory He will ensure - again in His role as vindresser - that they will abide in the true Vine.
No one in the True Vine will ever perish. In nature, a vine eventually dies, and the branches die with it, having lost their source of life. Christ will never cease to exist and thus all those who are engrafted - and remain engrafted - to the True Vine will absolutely never perish. And there is no power outside of God who can take any Christian out of his hands. Any genuine Christian that falls from grace and ends up cast into the fire is because God has chosen to let them go their own way. That choice was an act of His sovereign will and not because He was obligated to do it and definitely not because someone snatched them out of his hands. The fact that Jesus chose to use the word “snatch” instead of another word that does not involve force says a lot.
To be continued…
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
I may not be online tomorrow. So I wish everyone a very blessed evening.
God bless,
Michael
God bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
These are the terms Christ uses in Jn 10:28:
- Never
- Perish
Ou mā means one thing, perish means another. Put ‘em together and you have, in the strongest terms, the impossibility of the justified “losing something they possess;” namely, eternal life
(Jn 10:28).
The justified will not, because they cannot, be cast off, cast away, thrown into literal fire, because God glorifies all of those whom He elects:**Romans 8:30
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.**You’re teaching that God will not glorify each of those whom He justifies. That is a direct and an explicit contradiction of God’s revelation concerning the elect.
R. L. Dabney states:“The sovereign and unmerited love is the cause of the believer’s effectual calling. Jer. 33:3; Rom. 8:30. Now, as the cause is unchangeable, the effect is unchangeable. That effect is, the constant communication of grace to the believer in whom God hath begun a good work. God was not induced to bestow His renewing grace in the first instance, by anything which He saw, meritorious or attractive, in the repenting sinner; and therefore the subsequent absence of everything good in him would be no new motive to God for withdrawing His grace. When He first bestowed that grace, He knew that the sinner on whom He bestowed it was totally depraved, and wholly and only hateful in himself to the divine holiness; and therefore no new instance of ingratitude or unfaithfulness, of which the sinner may become guilty after his conversion, can be any provocation to God, to change His mind, and wholly withdraw His sustaining grace. God knew all this ingratitude before. He will chastise it, by temporarily withdrawing His Holy Spirit, or His providential mercies; but if He had not intended from the first to bear with it, and to forgive it in Christ, He would not have called the sinner by His grace at first. In a word, the causes for which God determined to bestow His electing love on the sinner are wholly in God, and not at all in the believer; and hence, nothing in the believer’s heart or conduct can finally change that purpose of love. Is. 54:10; Rom. 11:29. Compare carefully Rom. 5:8-10; 8:32, with the whole scope of Rom. 8:28-end. This illustrious passage is but an argument for our proposition; ‘What shall separate us from the love of Christ?’” Theology, p. 690.]
**“The Christian is like a man making his way up hill, who occasionally slips back, yet always has his face set toward the summit. The unregenerate man has his face turned downwards, and he is slipping all the way,” A. H. Strong.
“The believer, like a man on shipboard, may fall again and again on the deck, but he will never fall overboard.” C. H. Spurgeon.**
Many of the “proofs” you offer are conditional statements.
"If anyone does not abide in Me…."
Nothing has occurred in those conditionals; they are inducements which produce constant humility, watchfulness, and diligence.
The elect cannot be taken from God’s hand, nor will they leave.
In the same manner, a parent, in order to get a willing response from a child, may tell him/her to stay out of the way of an approaching automobile. All the time the parent has no intention of ever letting the child get into a position where it would be injured.
That is the description of God’s love, and His hand holding the elect.
God’s plying a soul with fears of falling in no way proves that God, in His secret purpose, intends to permit him to fall.
The fears may be the means designed by God to keep him from falling.
S
sandusky
Guest
This passage is another conditional argument, from which you jump to a wrong conclusion.**Galatians 5:2-4
**Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.So the condition of “falling from grace,” is primarily circumcision, and secondarily, seeking to be justified by law.
The conclusion that you draw is that “falling from grace” means “loss of eternal life,” or “loss of salvation,” or, what does “falling from grace” mean to you?
This can’t mean of loss of salvation, because the elect have a “positional standing” in grace, as I’ve said before—the believer’s is position is, from eternity “in Christ,” and he can’t lose that standing, otherwise, Paul is contradicting himself, and scripture can’t do that (cf. Rom 8:38-39; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; Col 2:13-14; 1 Thess 5:10; 2 Tim 2:13).
Therefore, it must mean something other than a loss of position as an adopted child of God.
Can one lose the “experience” of God’s grace, for seeking to be justified by law, or a combina-
tion of grace and law? Of course, as I’ve stated, that’s chastisement; nevertheless, it’s im-
possible for the elect to lose his position in Christ, and his standing in God’s grace—he will not finally remain in that position of mixing grace and law, the Lord will call him out (2 Cor 6:17).
S
sandusky
Guest
**Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.****
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.**
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
**…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The Word of God says that God glorifies each of those He justifies.
Do you believe the Word of God concerning that? :ehh:**.
S
sandusky
Guest
Any cutting off, casting away, or throwing into fire, cannot be literal, full, or final, as Rom 8:30 clearly states:**Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**The regenerate and justified cannot lose their justification; your Church teaches that they can, in contradiction to the Word of God; therefore, your church is wrong, and, it is teaching you error, IMO.
Furthermore, there are promises God makes to His elect, stating His preservation of them. IOW, He keeps them, guards them, sustains them, protects them, etc.**Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever….
Psalm 66:9
Who keeps us in life and does not allow our feet to slip.
Psalm 94:14
For the Lord will not abandon His people, nor will He forsake His inheritance.
Psalm 97:10
Hate evil, you who love the Lord, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 145:14
The Lord sustains all who fall and raises up all who are bowed down.
Psalm 145:20
The Lord keeps all who love Him…
Proverbs 2:8
Guarding the paths of justice, and He preserves the way of His godly ones.**And many more to which I can appeal in smothering your objections.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Those who are in God’s hands can never perish. There is absolutely no way that can occur, hence the strongest negative in the Greek.- Perish
Interesting… 'cuz the same Greek word for “perish” is used in the following verse:1 Corinthians 8:9
9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
The subject of the perishing is clearly a Christian.
And it means that those who are in the hands of the Son and the Father will never perish. As long as you are attached to the True Vine, you will always partake of the life that is in Him. If you do not abide in the True Vine, you will WITHER - which means DIE - and be cast into the fire. That’s why 1 John 2:24-25 states:
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
The promise is conditioned on abiding. That’s why we read in Galatians 6:7-10:
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
And Romans 2:5-6
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
M
mikeledes
Guest
And like John 15, Calvinists equivocate on this passage as well, presenting several and often contradictory explanations. The only consistent answer is “It’s not about the loss of salvation.” What they fail to do is to tell us what it actually means.This passage is another conditional argument, from which you jump to a wrong conclusion.Galatians 5:2-4
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.So the condition of “falling from grace,” is primarily circumcision, and secondarily, seeking to be justified by law.
The conclusion that you draw is that “falling from grace” means “loss of eternal life,” or “loss of salvation,” or, what does “falling from grace” mean to you?
This can’t mean of loss of salvation, because the elect have a “positional standing” in grace, as I’ve said before—the believer’s is position is, from eternity “in Christ,” and he can’t lose that standing, otherwise, Paul is contradicting himself, and scripture can’t do that (cf. Rom 8:38-39; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; Col 2:13-14; 1 Thess 5:10; 2 Tim 2:13).
Therefore, it must mean something other than a loss of position as an adopted child of God.
Can one lose the “experience” of God’s grace, for seeking to be justified by law, or a combina-
tion of grace and law? Of course, as I’ve stated, that’s chastisement; nevertheless, it’s im-
possible for the elect to lose his position in Christ, and his standing in God’s grace—he will not finally remain in that position of mixing grace and law, the Lord will call him out (2 Cor 6:17).
Paul states:
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of NO ]benefit to you.
Does Paul state Christ will be of partial benefit to you if you receive circumcision? Does he say Christ will be 75% benefit to you if you receive circumcision? He states Christ will be of NO benefit to you. What is the most important way Christ is of benefit to the Christian? SALVATION. Now let’s look at the following verse:
Galatians 5:4
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Pauls says the person has been severed from Christ and that they have fallen from grace. Can someone severed from the source of life and salvation still be saved? This is not a mere chastisement. Moreover, it does not say you have fallen from the experience of grace. It says point blank that you have fallen from grace. That cannot be any clearer. We are saved by grace. If we have fallen from grace, how can we still be saved? Hence:
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Paul is not contradicting himself. It is the Calvinist interpretation of Paul that contradicts Paul.
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
This following still stands unanswered:
**…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The Word of God says that God glorifies each of those He justifies.
Do you believe the Word of God concerning that? :ehh:**
**…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The Word of God says that God glorifies each of those He justifies.
Do you believe the Word of God concerning that? :ehh:**
M
mikeledes
Guest
If my Church is wrong, then so was Saint Augustine - who is often cited by John Calvin and other Calvinists - the Council of Orange - which Calvinists often cite in a vain attempt to give their teachings an ancient pedigree - and Martin Luther, the first one who “rediscovered” the Gospel and taught that salvation could be lost through unbelief.
He keeps those who love Him. Now many Calvinists argue that in 1 Corinthians 9:27 the only loss that occurs is the loss of a reward, namely, a crown. But to whom is this crown promised?
James 2:12
**12Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. **
If all who love him are promised that crown, then failure to obtain that crown is because of failure to persevere in loving Him. Why would Paul even raise the possibilty of that failure knowing that it will never occur?
Sure, the same way Jehovah’s Witnesses smother Trinitarian objections with dozens of verses in which Jesus is described as the “firstborn of creation,” or in which Jesus calls the Father His God, or says that the Father is greater than He, etc, etc. etc.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
It also says:This following still stands unanswered:
…these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The Word of God says that God glorifies each of those He justifies.
Do you believe the Word of God concerning that? :ehh:
and these whom He called, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified
We know that not all who are called by God are justified:
24"Because called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;"
Zechariah 7:13
13"And just as He called and they would not listen, so they called and I would not listen," says the LORD of hosts;
You will say that this is not a reference to the “effectual call.” There is no chapter and verse that makes a clear distinction between and “effectual” and “gospel” call. This distinction is a product of Calvinist theological reasoning that is based on the very premises Catholics in this thread are questioning. However, we also have the following verse regarding those who were “effectually” called:
Galatians 1:6
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
And we also have the following result:
Galatians 5:2-3
**2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of NO benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **
And we know the end of those who have been severed from Christ the True Vine:
**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
They will be THROWN AWAY - those are Christ’s words, not mine - dry up (loss of spiritual life), and be gathered by a “they” (i.e. angels) and cast into the fire, which Christ consistently uses as a reference to hell and hence this is the established definition of that phrase, a fact even recognized by many Calvinists.
The passage in Romans 8 gives us a general overview of how God’s plan of salvation works out in time for those who are predestined to glory. In other words, what Ott calls complete predestination. However, not all who are called are justified, and not all who are justified are glorified (Ezekiel 18:24, John 15:6). Moreover, Romans 11:21-22 qualifies this passage.
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
The verses I’ve posted with respect to your response stand on their own.
They speak of His godly ones—those who are His possession; His through adoption in Christ.
That’s talking about rescue from NATIONAL ENEMIES, not salvation of one’s soul.
You’re ignoring the context of the passage:**2 Chronicles 14:9-15:7
9 Now Zerah the Ethiopian came out against them with an army of a million men and 300 chariots, and he came to Mareshah.
10 So Asa went out to meet him, and they drew up in battle formation in the valley of Zephathah at Mareshah.
11 Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, “Lord, there is no one besides You to help in the battle between the powerful and those who have no strength; so help us, O Lord our God, for we trust in You, and in Your name have come against this multitude. O Lord, You are our God; let not man prevail against You.”
12 So the Lord routed the Ethiopians before Asa and before Judah, and the Ethiopians fled.
13 Asa and the people who were with him pursued them as far as Gerar; and so many Ethiopians fell that they could not recover, for they were shattered before the Lord and before His army. And they carried away very much plunder.
14 They destroyed all the cities around Gerar, for the dread of the Lord had fallen on them; and they despoiled all the cities, for there was much plunder in them.
15 They also struck down those who owned livestock, and they carried away large numbers of sheep and camels. Then they returned to Jerusalem.
CHAPTER 15
1 Now the Spirit of God came on Azariah the son of Oded,
2 and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: the Lord is with you when you are with Him. And if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.
3 “For many days Israel was without the true God and without a teaching priest and without law.
4 “But in their distress they turned to the Lord God of Israel, and they sought Him, and He let them find Him.
5 “In those times there was no peace to him who went out or to him who came in, for many disturbances afflicted all the inhabitants of the lands.
6 “Nation was crushed by nation, and city by city, for God troubled them with every kind of distress.
7 “But you, be strong and do not lose courage, for there is reward for your work.”CONTEXT!**
I
Ignatius
Guest
Election or Free Choice
I have a question that is confusing me. Are we chosen from the beginning of time for salvation as stipulated in Articles 7, 8 and 9 of the Canons of Dordt,
Canons of Dordt:
or is man capable of making a free choice for Christ as defined by the Southern Baptist Convention as defined below?
Southern Baptist Convention:
Southern Baptist Convention:
Now these are Essential Doctrines by Calvinists and Baptists respectively and yet they contradict each other and cannot both be true. Both the Calvinists and Baptists profess to be Bible Alone believers who let scripture interpret scripture. So, which one of them, by the inerrant interpretation of the individual believer based on the Bible Alone, has eroded?
M
mikeledes
Guest
He also says the following about His godly ones:
Ezekiel 33:13
13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.
He also says in Proverbs 2:7:
7He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
The promise He makes are for those who are godly (in Christ) and remain godly (abide in Christ). Forever does not mean without conditions:
1 Kings 9:3-9
3The LORD said to him, "I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.
4"As for you, if you will walk before Me as your father David walked, in integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I have commanded you and will keep My statutes and My ordinances,
5then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I promised to your father David, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’
6"But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them,
7then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
8"And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone who passes by will be astonished and hiss and say, ‘Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?’
9"And they will say, ‘Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.’"
King Solomon’s temple was destroyed.
2 Chronicles 15:2
2 He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.
The basic principle expressed by the prophet applies to both the temporal and the spiritual.
2 Timothy 2:12
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If WE deny Him, He also will deny us;
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
You are leaving out the TWO MOST IMPORTANT WORDS REPEATED IN THE VERSE:**Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**
Again:** and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**The text clearly states that everyone who is called IS ALSO justified, and everyone who is justified IS ALSO glorified.
That’s very clear.
So, all of the texts you’ve listed as objections don’t apply, and, IMO, indicate that you do not understand.
I’ll ask again:
Do you agree with scripture that ALL OF THOSE whom God justifies,
He also glorifies? Yes, or no, please.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to the perishing ones
BUT
to the being saved ones [the word] is the power of God.
**To the perishing ones they hear the Gospel call, and to them, the Gospel is FOOLISHNESS.
To the being saved ones they hear the Gospel call, and to them, the Gospel is
THE POWER OF GOD.
General vs. Effectual call**
M
mikeledes
Guest
Matthew 5:13 is an interesting verse:
**13"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. **
We also find this “salt” image used in Luke 14:34-35
34"Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
35"It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out
That certainly does not sound like a very positive end and the end is clearly final.
If you are comparing this verse with John 15:6, then it only serves to bolster the fact that John 15:6 is speaking of eternal damnation. If salt has lost its saltiness and thus is no longer good for anything, then how do you reconcile that with perseverance of the saints? Don’t all of the justified persevere in “saltiness?” “Saltiness” stands for righteious conduct. That’s why Jesus says what he says in Matthew 5:13 right* after * He discusses the beatitudes and then follows up by saying:**13"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. **
The rest of the chapter is about genuinely righteous conduct and this discussion continues in Chapter 6 and finishes in chapter 7. According to Calvinists, the righteous can never lose their “saltiness”, because all of the righteous will persevere. But if we combine Mathew 5:13 with John 15:6, it only serves to prove that not all of the genuinely righteous will persevere to the end and hence lose their saltiness:
**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
Ezekiel 33:18
18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it.
James 1:12
12Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Revelation 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
1 Corinthians 9:27
**27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. **
Galatians 6:7-9
**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap IF we do not grow weary. **
All of these verses contradicts the idea that one who has lost their “saltiness” can still be saved. As Matthew 5:13 and Luke 14:34-35 clearly indicate, the “tasteless” salt is thrown out and this end is final.
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
Interesting… 'cuz the same Greek word for “perish” is used in the following verse:
1 Corinthians 8:9
9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
The subject of the perishing is clearly a Christian.The context is that the stronger brother should exercise care in light of the weaker brother’s weakness.
The stronger may cause, not certainly will cause, but may cause the weaker to stumble, and SIN (cf Rom 14:13-23).
But, that’s not a hard and fast rule, as the stronger brother’s actions may cause the weaker to become stronger; it cuts both ways, nevertheless, Paul’s concern here is for the weaker brother.
As I’ve said before, the sins and failures of the elect do not void the New Covenant promises that God has made to them.
Moreover, Jesus uses the word in one context; Paul uses the word in another context. It’s not good to insist upon the same meaning from one speaker to another; rather, context is needed to determine the meaning…
You should know that, as you continually bring up context.
With respect to Paul’s use of the word, the better translation is “ruined,” as in causing him to sin. Sinning is not a reason for losing one’s salvation.Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.He uses all things; even our failures, which are never to final destruction:Psalm 37:24
When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, BECAUSE the Lord is the One who holds his hand.
mikeledes:
Ps 37:24 answers all of your objections to God’s Hands as well.
S
sandusky
Guest
The following still has not been directly answered:
mikeledes:
and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**
mikeledes:
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**The text clearly states that everyone who is called IS ALSO justified, and everyone who is justified IS ALSO glorified.
That’s very clear.
So, all of the texts you’ve listed as objections don’t apply, and, IMO, indicate that you do not understand.
I’ll ask again:
Do you agree with scripture that ALL OF THOSE whom God justifies,
He also glorifies? Yes, or no, please.
You are ignoring the **TWO MOST IMPORTANT WORDS REPEATED IN THE VERSE:****Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**
Again:** and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.**The text clearly states that everyone who is called IS ALSO justified, and everyone who is justified IS ALSO glorified.
That’s very clear.
So, all of the texts you’ve listed as objections don’t apply, and, IMO, indicate that you do not understand.
I’ll ask again:
Do you agree with scripture that ALL OF THOSE whom God justifies,
He also glorifies? Yes, or no, please.
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