ONLY Tridentine (Latin) Mass?

[JNB]

While Abp. Bugnini, who headed the Vaticans liturgy reforms in the 60s had his own agenda, the initial thought and push behind the Novus Ordo was to take away the Gallacian(French) influences away from teh Roman Rite to simplify it. To an extent, that is what the final product was like, and the Novus Ordo resembles the pre Vatican II Dominican rite, a rite that had less Gallacian influences.

That said, if the current missal did not have multiple canons(Eucharistic prayers) and multiple Pennance rites, celebrated in Latin, facing the altar instead of the parishoners, then it is fairly closer to the pre Gallacian Roman Rite, but that is not what we have today, is it?

I fully accept the Novus Ordo as valid, I even have seen it very reverently celebrated in line with Tradition, but that is not the case with how it is typically celebrated.

 

[Iohannes]

That might be a hard pill to swallow for some but those who separate themselves from the Norms of the Church and insist on only the Trinetine Mass is licit have already separated from the Church. We call that Prostestant!

I have not seen anybody that only the Trindentine Mass is licit on this board. Why did you need to bring that up?

 

[Marie]

Ham1:

ALL of the people that I know who were raised Pre-Vatican II prefer the current mass to the old mass.

Actually I prefer to follow the Church and what it says is the Norm. It would be amusing if it were not so very sad, that many people think Vatican II brought all the problems of liturgical abuse into being. Obviously they either were not living before Vatican II and or were sleeping in the pew somewhere. The Popes have been writing for well over a century about the problems in the liturgy. Pius XII’s Mediator Dei is a prime example of this problem way back in the good old days of the Latin Mass as the Norm. We had Liturgical abuse by the boatload then and still do. The Norm is not the problem. It is as Pius said:
"Pius XII:

MEDIATOR DEI

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE SACRED LITURGY

1. But while We derive no little satisfaction from the wholesome results of the movement just described, duty obliges Us to give serious attention to this “revival” as it is advocated in some quarters, and to take proper steps to preserve it at the outset from excess or outright perversion.
2. Indeed, though we are sorely grieved to note, on the one hand, that there are places where the spirit, understanding or practice of the sacred liturgy is defective, or all but inexistent, We observe with considerable anxiety and some misgiving, that elsewhere certain enthusiasts, over-eager in their search for novelty, are straying beyond the path of sound doctrine and prudence. Not seldom, in fact, they interlard their plans and hopes for a revival of the sacred liturgy with principles which compromise this holiest of causes in theory or practice, and sometimes even taint it with errors touching Catholic faith and ascetical doctrine.

You can read the rest Here

 

[pnewton]

The Novus Ordo was very advantageous to me. Since I was an adult convert, I would have had a very difficult time following a Trindentine Mass. I am trying to catch up on Latin as fast as I can, but I would have gone years of muddling through the Mass if I had a language barrier also. Just following the missalette was tough the first few months. I am also reminded of the Scott Hahn’s story of sitting through Mass before he converted. He saw in the Mass the key to the book of Revelations. Would he have been able to make the same connections if it had been in Latin?

May God grant us such a great wave of evangelization and so many converts that the Church must always take them into consideration.

 

[dcs]

JNB:

While Abp. Bugnini, who headed the Vaticans liturgy reforms in the 60s had his own agenda, the initial thought and push behind the Novus Ordo was to take away the Gallacian(French) influences away from teh Roman Rite to simplify it. To an extent, that is what the final product was like, and the Novus Ordo resembles the pre Vatican II Dominican rite, a rite that had less Gallacian influences.

That was the initial push behind it, but it didn’t work out that way. Some elements that were Roman were supressed (like the Embolism following the Our Father, the Mysterium Fidei in the Words of Institution, etc.), and some elements that were Gallican were retained (the Orate Fratres). In addition, quite a few elements were added from non-Roman sources. The Second Eucharistic Prayer (probably the most common one in usage today) was taken from the writings of St. Hippolytus, then a schismatic anti-Pope (he was later reconciled and died a martyr). I think the source for the Fourth Eucharistic Prayer is Syrian. The beautiful Offertory prayers, one of which was Gallican and the other Mozarbic, were sc_rapped (silly censor!) in favor of Jewish meal blessings.

I think only a specialist would be able to distinguish the Dominican Rite from the Roman Rite in most cases.

 

[dcs]

Ham1:

ALL of the people that I know who were raised Pre-Vatican II prefer the current mass to the old mass.

My experience is the exact opposite, and goes to show only one thing: anecdotal evidence is meaningless!

Perhaps it’s only an excuse, but my mother-in-law claims she won’t go to Mass because she can’t abide the Mass changes.

My mother, who is Protestant and non-practicing, preferred the old Mass (she used to go with her nursing-school classmates in the early 60s) to the New. Perhaps if the Mass hadn’t changed, she would have converted, and then I could have been spared the same trouble.

 

[JNB]

Here is the ordinary to the Dominican rite
members.aol.com/liturgialatina/dominican/mass_ordinary.htm

And if you look there were a few differences. While there are 2 Confetiors, the Dominican Confetior is pretty close to the Confetior used today, including the line confessing to ones “bretheren”

The Offortory in the Dominican rite is also quite short, even shorter than the Novus Ordo offertory.

 

[system]

Ham1:

ALL of the people that I know who were raised Pre-Vatican II prefer the current mass to the old mass.

Ham,

This can’t possibly be true! I was raised with the Latin Mass. You know me and I don’t perfer the old Mass as you call it.

DigitalDeacon

 

[system]

DigitalDeacon:

Ham,

This can’t possibly be true! I was raised with the Latin Mass. You know me and I don’t perfer the old Mass as you call it.

DigitalDeacon

Then I think you’re agreeing with what he said… read it again.

And as much as I agree with “dcs” that anecdotal evidence doesn’t count for much, I will also echo what Ham said. In fact, when I discovered that the Mass changed in 1970, I was befuddled because I grew up during the 70’s and nobody ever mentioned this fact. Of the few “old-timers” I’ve asked about it (older friends and relatives), no one has ever expressed any preference for the old ways. Not a one.

I’ve never met a fan of the old mass (or anything with more “traditional” preferences in person. Only through online forums like this. Every time I am tempted to think that it’s a sizable or growing movement, I remind myself of that fact.

 

[system]

Melman:

Then I think you’re agreeing with what he said… read it again.

And as much as I agree with “dcs” that anecdotal evidence doesn’t count for much, I will also echo what Ham said. In fact, when I discovered that the Mass changed in 1970, I was befuddled because I grew up during the 70’s and nobody ever mentioned this fact. Of the few “old-timers” I’ve asked about it (older friends and relatives), no one has ever expressed any preference for the old ways. Not a one.

I’ve never met a fan of the old mass (or anything with more “traditional” preferences in person. Only through online forums like this. Every time I am tempted to think that it’s a sizable or growing movement, I remind myself of that fact.

Thanks! I then stand corrected!

DigitalDeacon

 

[Ham1]

DigitalDeacon:

Thanks! I then stand corrected!

DigitalDeacon

Too Loud!

 

[Ham1]

dcs:

My experience is the exact opposite, and goes to show only one thing: anecdotal evidence is meaningless!

Perhaps it’s only an excuse, but my mother-in-law claims she won’t go to Mass because she can’t abide the Mass changes.

My mother, who is Protestant and non-practicing, preferred the old Mass (she used to go with her nursing-school classmates in the early 60s) to the New. Perhaps if the Mass hadn’t changed, she would have converted, and then I could have been spared the same trouble.

dcs,

I agree. I posted this to make exactly that point. It was in response to Iohannes who said in an earlier post that “I know of plenty of people who were raised Pre-vatican II, many of them did not like the changes.”

Thanks!

 

[space_ghost]

Why don’t we look at what we can put into the Mass at the Parish where we worship, and try not to look so hard at what they can do for us… aren’t we to serve instead of being served…?.. i really think we demand too much and give way too little…

may the love of God and the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ be with all of us on our mutual search for doing God’s will and not being overly concerned as to what the majisterium can do to entertain us…

 

[Crusader]

1. How do you know that Novus Ordo Missae is the Mass of the Early church or that we are closer.
Want to play early church fine. lets play early church.
-Men women seperated.
-Stand the entire time.
-Women cover their heads
-Catechumens are not allowed in during the Mass of the Faithful
-no female altar boys
-They did not dialogue with pagan, schismatics, and heretics
-non-catholics were not allowed to worship on Catholic altars
-the altar back then was not a square altar table
-Mass was often said on top of tombs, why was the relic requirement removed at VII?

Anybody else want to play early church?

1. I did not say that the Traditional Latin Mass is the only licit Mass. For your information, I attend the Latin Novus Ordo Missae on the weekdays.
2. I know of plenty of people who were raised Pre-vatican II, many of them did not like the changes.

“Early church?” It’s not up to you to discount what the Catholic Church directs today, so that you can follow what you believe the Church directed yeasterday – if it’s in conflict with today’s norms.

That would be simply be another form of liturgical abuse.

 

[Marie]

Ham1:

ALL of the people that I know who were raised Pre-Vatican II prefer the current mass to the old mass.

Count yourself knowing another one then. I certainly like the New Order of the Mass. The idea that the Latin Mass was perfect and more Reverent is beyond the pale for those of us who were raised most of our life in it. I loved it in it’s time, hated all the abuses going on. The faithful were about as attentive at mass as a block of dead wood. They were quiet all right. Between nap’s they might yawn once in awhile so you could tell they were still breathing. Not all of course, but many. Same problem today with the New Mass. It’s not the language folks…it’s the lack of real caring about the requisite that those who are present are to participate, not nap, daydream, say the rosary or anything else that is not in the Rubrics. The rules were the same then as now.

Read the encyclicals of the Popes on the Liturgy (as in Pius XII’s Mediator Dei). The Latin Liturgy was a mess folks too…and when the Traditionalist’s point the finger at the new Order of the Mass, I know they were either part of the problem, born after the fact or have chosen to ignore history for their own pious ( but skewed) pursuit of what they think the Church should do.

 

[Crusader]

Marie:

Count yourself knowing another one then. I certainly like the New Order of the Mass. The idea that the Latin Mass was perfect and more Reverent is beyond the pale for those of us who were raised most of our life in it. I loved it in it’s time, hated all the abuses going on. The faithful were about as attentive at mass as a block of dead wood. They were quiet all right. Between nap’s they might yawn once in awhile so you could tell they were still breathing. Not all of course, but many. Same problem today with the New Mass. It’s not the language folks…it’s the lack of real caring about the requisite that those who are present are to participate, not nap, daydream, say the rosary or anything else that is not in the Rubrics. The rules were the same then as now.

Read the encyclicals of the Popes on the Liturgy (as in Pius XII’s Mediator Dei). The Latin Liturgy was a mess folks too…and when the Traditionalist’s point the finger at the new Order of the Mass, I know they were either part of the problem, born after the fact or have chosen to ignore history for their own pious ( but skewed) pursuit of what they think the Church should do.

Amen.

 

[dcs]

Marie:

Read the encyclicals of the Popes on the Liturgy (as in Pius XII’s Mediator Dei).

I’ve read it many times. It’s especially helpful in addressing some of the attitudes evinced in this thread.

The Latin Liturgy was a mess folks too.

According to whom and by what standard?

and when the Traditionalist’s point the finger at the new Order of the Mass, I know they were either part of the problem

Part of what problem?

 

[Lou]

dcs:

I’ve read it many times. It’s especially helpful in addressing some of the attitudes evinced in this thread.

According to whom and by what standard?

Part of what problem?

I have to concur with dcs. It only takes a little knowledge of church history to recognize that abuses exist is every age, but my concern is, in part, with the apparent magnitude of the problem when compared to the immediately preceeding era (1950s and prior).

Finally, I grew up with the NO from about age 9 and prefer the ‘Tridentine’.

Lou

 

[NM2]

3. I know of plenty of people who were raised Pre-vatican II, many of them did not like the changes.

But in the end it doesn’t matter whether they, or you, or I like the changes or not. When the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, speaks, our duty is to obey, regardless of our personal preferences. So I won’t push for the indult to be rescinded, and I won’t push for it to be extended universally. I just want to be faithful to what the Church teaches. :getholy:

 

[TradCatholic]

I wonder how many Catholics who lay claim to following the Churches norms to defend the Novus Ordo; also will not vote for Kerry nor use Contraceptives and acknowledge that women can never be Priests??