ONLY Tridentine (Latin) Mass?

[Crusader]

TradCatholic:

I wonder how many Catholics who lay claim to following the Churches norms to defend the Novus Ordo; also will not vote for Kerry nor use Contraceptives and acknowledge that women can never be Priests??

Why attempt to introduce such inane hyperbole into the conversation? Misdirection is very unbecoming.

The simple fact is that those who reject Catholic Church teachings in place of what they believe should be allowed/disallowed given their “traditionalist” backgrounds are every bit as abusive as the overly progressive “Spirit of Vatican IIers” who create the problems we are so well aware of.

 

[TradCatholic]

Crusader:

Why attempt to introduce such inane hyperbole into the conversation? Misdirection is very unbecoming.

The simple fact is that those who reject Catholic Church teachings in place of what they believe should be allowed/disallowed given their “traditionalist” backgrounds are every bit as abusive as the overly progressive “Spirit of Vatican IIers” who create the problems we are so well aware of.

Thanks for your concern. The truth is that some of the Novus Ordo’s greatest defenders ignore the Church on issues such as: Abortion, Woman’s ordination, contraception and Homosexuality. Why are these Heretics so attached to the Novus Ordo? I think many here know why.

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Please remember your charity in the spirit of the discussion. Refrain from name calling and personal attacks.
Thanks

 

[otm]

dcs, you want to know of the abuses fo the Tridentine Mass: try a 12 minute weekday Mass (I was an altar boy at the time; 6:30 Mass was over before 6:45; we were all sure that Father could not only say the words breathing out, but also breathing in); try the numerous people who read a devotional book or said their rosary during Mass; and the many others who simply followed the rubrics, without a clue as to what was actually being said (they had no missal, and couldn’t understand Latin).
The popular questions about the Mass at that time? “How late can I come to Mass and still fulfill my obligation” (answer, you had to be there by the Gospel reading); the second question was “How soon can I leave Mass and still fulfill my obligation” (answer, communion).
It amazes me to see the flow of Catholics leaving Mass as Communion is being distributed; and the majority to great majority are pre Vativan II Catholics.
Greek was not the vernacular, but was the “Liturgical” language? Excuse me, Greek was the vernacular, as it was the most common language of the then known world, the language of trade and culture. Latin, for the first couple of centuries was the language of the oppressor (who do you think was persecuting the Christians? the barbarians had not yet arrived). :dancing:

 

[Marie]

Question. Isn’t this discussion more suited for another forum? What is it doing in the Spirituality forum anyway? Some of us would like the Traditional vs. Ordo Missae discussions corralled somewhere so we don’t have to constantly trip over them. Same crowd, same arguments and you post them everywhere.

Have some care folks. I like you all quite well enough but I find the fact these threads are popping up in all the forums annoying and disruptive. There are people who want to learn the faith who come here. This type of issue is learning nothing and advancing confusion. Especially when it’s not in an appropriate forum.

Maybe Karl might consider starting a locked forum for you guys to duke it out. It will satisfy you all and you can fuss to your hearts content. Meantime, other people won’t have to trip over the bloody family fight at every other thread. Karl and the staff have provided a wonderful forum to learn and spread the faith. Some posters are determined to turn it into their own personal NO vs Traditional forum’s no matter what category the heading indicates.

I have seen that happen time and time again on the net. It kills a forum deader than dead in no time at all. Envoy’s forum is a case in point. Check it out. You could have loads of fun there. Nobody shows up anymore but the ones who want to argue Traditional vs. the Norm. The SSPX’s by the way are ruling the day over there. Maybe you could join forces and bring some sanity to it.

 

[Crusader]

Marie:

Question. Isn’t this discussion more suited for another forum? What is it doing in the Spirituality forum anyway? Some of us would like the Traditional vs. Ordo Missae discussions corralled somewhere so we don’t have to constantly trip over them. Same crowd, same arguments and you post them everywhere.

Have some care folks. I like you all quite well enough but I find the fact these threads are popping up in all the forums annoying and disruptive. There are people who want to learn the faith who come here. This type of issue is learning nothing and advancing confusion. Especially when it’s not in an appropriate forum.

Maybe Karl might consider starting a locked forum for you guys to duke it out. It will satisfy you all and you can fuss to your hearts content. Meantime, other people won’t have to trip over the bloody family fight at every other thread. Karl and the staff have provided a wonderful forum to learn and spread the faith. Some posters are determined to turn it into their own personal NO vs Traditional forum’s no matter what category the heading indicates.

I have seen that happen time and time again on the net. It kills a forum deader than dead in no time at all. Envoy’s forum is a case in point. Check it out. You could have loads of fun there. Nobody shows up anymore but the ones who want to argue Traditional vs. the Norm. The SSPX’s by the way are ruling the day over there. Maybe you could join forces and bring some sanity to it.

I started this thread in “Liturgy.” It was moved here. Not sure why. It’s probably a thread that needs to be erased altogether…

 

[Marie]

Crusader:

I started this thread in “Liturgy.” It was moved here. Not sure why. It’s probably a thread that needs to be erased altogether…

Must have been an accident. You have been pretty good about putting yours in the Liturgy section. You do a good job, even most of the TLM fans do too. I know you guys love to discuss the TLM vs NO stuff and that’s fine. It’s just that it is creeping into every conversation, thread and forum. We start out on one subject and a TLM person has to come in and throw something weird into the conversation. Then the other side answers. By the time the fray is over no one who was interested in the subject comes back.

That’s why I am wondering if there should not be a section reserved for just such stuff. You can discuss it and enjoy as well you all should. But it’s gotten out of hand that it comes up in every conversation and every forum lately. Many, Many people are not into that type of argument and they just want to know about the Catholic faith.

When the Traditional vs the Norm takes over a Forum you can kiss it goodbye. It happens over and over on the net. I am concerned the same will happen here.

 

[Gideon_s_Sword]

otm:

Latin, for the first couple of centuries was the language of the oppressor …

Which is one of the reasons Latin is the Church’s greatest acquisition; literally a spiritual “war prize” taken from the very people who executed the Lord and who persecuted the early Church.

 

[Mike_C]

Please explain “abuses” of the pre-Vatican II Mass? The priest saying week-day Masses too fast? Thats all?

I served Mass for a priest who had to teach at a Catholic University in NYC. He had to catch a bus, but his Mass lasted about 15mins. He said the Mass in a private chapel in the rectory, so there were no Communion of the Faithful. I don’t think it was an abuse.

I never saw anyone take the host and put it in her pocketbook, or children playing around the altar. Yes, some people followed the Mass with a missal, or said the rosary. We have the Mass in English now. Some people are still day dreaming, talking to those next to them, etc. So whats the difference?

 

[Marie]

Mike,
I think the discussion got moved into another thread as this one was in Spirtuality and later moved to Liturgy. This is the thread people are posting to pretty much now I think, (Liturgy section) It is the more comprehensive one on the subject.

The answers to abuses are there as I recall. Long thread but in there somewhere.
Pax,
Marie

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4969

 

[Marines]

I encourage you all to read this.

The following is a series of excerpts from the pamphlet, or mini-book titled “Why the Tridentine Mass?” by Una Voce; Pamphlets on the Liturgy, No.2

*** The situation is different when positive commandments of the Church, practical decisions of the Church are at stake. Here we are not faced with the infallible Church. While we must obey such decisions and submit to them in reverence and deep respect, we need not consider them felicitous or prudent. Here the maxim “Roma locuta est: causa finita est” does not apply. If we are convinced that any practical change or decision is objectively unfortunate, noxious, compromising, imprudent, or unjust, we are permitted to pray that it may be revoked, to write in a respectful manner about the topic, to direct petitions for a change of it to the Holy Father-to attempt, in a variety of ways, to influence a reversal of the decision.

Thus the following investigation of the Novus Ordo Missae is in no way incompatible with the above mentioned unwavering loyalty to the Papacy and deep filial respect to the person of the Roman Pontiff. Such an investigation is made even mandatory because of the steep decline in attendance at Mass in the past few years and because of the large decline in priestly and religious vocations, the increasing defections of priests and religious, and the general breakdown in discipline of priests and religious. All of this, in turn, has been accompanied by a serious questioning and even denial of many doctrines of the Church, particularly Transubstantiation, which is the distinguishing feature of the Catholic Mass and the Catholic priesthood.

Today we have a much more subtle heresy taking place regarding this central fact. The modern heretics do not fulminate against the Mass as a sacrifice as Luther and others of his time did. Instead they purposely never mention the ancient Catholic doctrine and teaching, but place all emphasis upon the Paschal Banquet, the meeting of the assembly under the presidency of the priest.

There is no doubt, that there are precisely these heretical trends rampant in the Church today. Time and again the Holy Father has alluded to them in allocutions, deploring them. It is against the background of these heresies, for instance the tacit denial of the bodily presence of our Lord in the consecrated host, in replacing Transubstantiation by trans-signification, and many different forms of secularization that we must look at the new Ordo and the entire liturgical reform.

Whatever the intentions of the authors of the new Ordo Missae may have been-objectively the new Ordo-and the entire reform of the liturgical year-reflects a spirit, subtle as it may be, which seems to yield to the dangerous trends of our times. It certainly does not provide us-as the Tridentine Mass did-with the unequivocal protection against these heresies…

 

[Marines]

It must be emphasized that not only the Novus Ordo Missae but the entire so-called reform of the changing parts of the Mass and of the entire liturgy (readings, gospels, feasts of the saints) is a great blunder and has a catastrophically pastoral consequence. Some people even question whether they are still obliged to go to Mass of Sundays. To this the answer can only be: even in the new form the holy mass on Sunday is just as obligatory as before; and it must be emphasized at this point that all the shortcomings of the New Ordo Missae and all the deplorable changes in the liturgical year must never curtail our personal religious life as true and ardent Catholics… Nevertheless, one cannot but ask: why these changes? Has the high value of continuity been forgotten? Has all respect vanished for the religious and artistic treasures handed to us from great inspired saints and homines religiosi?
In the part of the Mass called the Canon, there were six prayers before the Consecration: The Te Igitur, the Memmento Domine, the Communicantes, the Hanc Igitur, the Quam Oblationem, and the Qui Pridie. There were seven which follow it: the Unde et Memores, the Supra quae Propitio, the Supplices Te Rogamus, the Memento Etiam, the Nobis quoque Peccatoribus, the Per Quam Haec Omnia and the Per Ipsum. Eucharistic Prayer, Form Two, is almost in universal use and therefore most of these prayers have been eliminated. Protestants even accept it in their communion services. Following the Pater Noster the following prayers have disappeared totally or are severely mutilated; Libera Nos, the Panem Colelestem, the priest's Domine non sum Dignus, the Quid Retribuam, the two repetitions of the people's invocation, Domine non sum Dignus, the Corpus Domini, the Quod Ore, the Corpus Tuum, the Placeat Tibi, and the Last Gospel.

 

[ATeNumquam]

Marie:

Question. Isn’t this discussion more suited for another forum? What is it doing in the Spirituality forum anyway? Some of us would like the Traditional vs. Ordo Missae discussions corralled somewhere so we don’t have to constantly trip over them. Same crowd, same arguments and you post them everywhere.

Maybe Karl might consider starting a locked forum for you guys to duke it out. It will satisfy you all and you can fuss to your hearts content. Meantime, other people won’t have to trip over the bloody family fight at every other thread. Karl and the staff have provided a wonderful forum to learn and spread the faith. Some posters are determined to turn it into their own personal NO vs Traditional forum’s no matter what category the heading indicates.

QUOTE]

HEAR, HEAR !!!

---

I’m pretty sick of it, too, and actually shocked!!!
What** IS** all this stuff about???
Why are we potentially scandalising and confusing non-Catholics and would-be Catholics on an apologetics forum???
I keep trying to tell myself that this must be a problem peculiar to the US and therefore none of my business.
Maybe if we had so much liturgical abuse here as you guys SEEM to have, I’d be disatisfied with the Novus Ordo too, but as far as I’m concerned, if I’m an obedient Catholic, I accept whatever the Church decrees, and I’m not going to fret over something that is permitted, like female altar servers.
I promise I’ll say no more and avoid these threads in future.
Peace be with you all!

---

A Te numquam separari permittas - never let me be separated from You

---

 

[deogratias]

Why are we potentially scandalising and confusing non-Catholics and would-be Catholics on an apologetics forum???
I keep trying to tell myself that this must be a problem peculiar to the US and therefore none of my business.
Maybe if we had so much liturgical abuse here as you guys SEEM to have, I’d be disatisfied with the Novus Ordo too, **but as far as I’m concerned, if I’m an obedient Catholic, I accept whatever the Church decrees, **and I’m not going to fret over something that is permitted, like female altar servers.
I promise I’ll say no more and avoid these threads in future.
Peace be with you all!

Just for the record.

There are obedient Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Masses.

There are obedietn Catholics who attend licit Church approved Tridentine Masses (moi)

There are disobedient professed Catholics who attend illicit Masses (such as SSPX).

I don’t want to be lumped in with the SSPX people who are in schism.

I don’t want to be lumped in with any Traditionalist who says he is loyal to Rome but claims the Novos Ordo Mass to be invalid.

I don’t want to be lumped in with anyone who claims loyalty to Rome but refuses to accept the Indult Mass allowed by Rome.

I don’t want to be lulmped in with anyone who claims to be loyal to Rome but denies the valildity of Vatican II.

In otherwords I am like any other obedient Catholic - I attend a licit Indult Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[deogratias]

Question. Isn’t this discussion more suited for another forum? What is it doing in the Spirituality forum anyway

Marie - it is back and it is now in the Liturgy forum again. I thought this thread was so long gone that I thought it actually had been removed or locked - ugh - seems it has been dug up again.

I responded to the earlier post before I realized that it was a thread that began way back in June -

 

[Marie]

deogratias:

Marie - it is back and it is now in the Liturgy forum again. I thought this thread was so long gone that I thought it actually had been removed or locked - ugh - seems it has been dug up again.

I responded to the earlier post before I realized that it was a thread that began way back in June -

ROFLOL! It seems to be a thread that just refuses to die. It was moved to the proper forum and sat idle for two months. OH! Well, at least we had some fun being confused.

And I agree with your post about Licit TLM people, as you already know.

 

[Iohannes]

deogratias:

Just for the record.

There are obedient Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Masses.

There are obedietn Catholics who attend licit Church approved Tridentine Masses (moi)

There are disobedient professed Catholics who attend illicit Masses (such as SSPX).

I don’t want to be lumped in with the SSPX people who are in schism.

I don’t want to be lumped in with any Traditionalist who says he is loyal to Rome but claims the Novos Ordo Mass to be invalid.

I don’t want to be lumped in with anyone who claims loyalty to Rome but refuses to accept the Indult Mass allowed by Rome.

I don’t want to be lulmped in with anyone who claims to be loyal to Rome but denies the valildity of Vatican II.

In otherwords I am like any other obedient Catholic - I attend a licit Indult Traditional Latin Mass.

Technically the laity who attends an SSPX are not in schism as long as they hold the New Mass to be valid, only the clergy/third order is in schism. No cannot become a SSPX member unless one joins a third order or the priesthood of the SSPX.

 

[Marie]

Iohannes:

Technically the laity who attends an SSPX are not in schism as long as they hold the New Mass to be valid, only the clergy/third order is in schism. No cannot become a SSPX member unless one joins a third order or the priesthood of the SSPX.

Technically the laity who attend an SSPX are heading out the door and into schism would be more correct.
Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei:

N. 343/98
Rome, 27 October 1998

b. While the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, they are also suspended a divinis, that is they are forbidden by the Church from celebrating the Mass and the sacraments because of their illicit (or illegal) ordination to the diaconate and the priesthood without proper incardination (cf. canon 265). In the strict sense there are no “lay members” of the Society of St. Pius X, only those who frequent their Masses and receive the sacraments from them.

Why would a faithful Catholic want to attend a forbidden/non-sanctioned Mass in the first place? Only a schismatic mentality would lead one to disobey the churchs directives after all. I think that pretty much puts the ones who attend out the door with the whole group of SSPX’ers.
Continued Letter:

While it is true that participation in the Mass at the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute “formal adherence to the schism”, such adherence can come about over a period of time as one slowly imbibes a schismatic mentality which separates itself from the teaching of the Supreme Pontiff and the entire Catholic Church classically exemplified in A Rome and Econe Handbook which states in response to question 14 that the SSPX defends the traditional catechisms and therefore the Old Mass, and so attacks the Novus Ordo, the Second Vatican Council and the New Catechism, all of which more or less undermine our unchangeable Catholic faith.

It is precisely because of this schismatic mentality that this Pontifical Commission has consistently discouraged the faithful from attending Masses celebrated under the aegis of the Society of St. Pius X.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

Even the editor of the Remnant, Michael Matt goes to the Indult Mass. Yet many people would call him a schimatic. This “schismatic mentality” is not schism. It is even used to insult people who act like Catholics of the past. Either you are fully schismatic or you are not. Also some use the word “partial communion” to describe the SSPX’s sitaution. Same thing as “schismatic mentality”. If Father Wickens is in schism why did the Pope give him a rosary blest by the Pope and encouraged him to build his chapel. The SSPX bishop Fellay also received the Pope’s blessing and the Pope oly gives blessings to Catholics.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

Marie:

Technically the laity who attend an SSPX are heading out the door and into schism would be more correct.

Why would a faithful Catholic want to attend a forbidden/non-sanctioned Mass in the first place? Only a schismatic mentality would lead one to disobey the churchs directives after all. I think that pretty much puts the ones who attend out the door with the whole group of SSPX’ers.

Rephrase the question: WHy would a Catholic want to go to a sanctioned Mass where there are altar girls,eucharistic ministers, elements of or complete Protestantism? Only those sanctined Masses where priests are surrounded by EM’s,altar girls,Charismatic,Lifeteen, and where they sing Protestant “praise and worship” music. I think that these elements incorporated into Mass make people who attend these Masses look identical and have identical believes to Protestants.