Open Thread for the Synod on the Family

[Michael1978]

Here’s a good analysis of the Synod from Catholic Culture:

A chaotic synod? Not in its results

catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=1242

Very nice article. Thanks for posting this link and for all the other updates you have posted.

 

[ejp123]

Just a thought. To my understanding the synod is not about changing doctrine. But the conversation seems to be giving false hope to the gay community. I don’t think they want to hear about being accepted into the church witht the condition that they are chase. They want to be told that there life style is ok and acceptable. Otherwise, I think the synod is misleading them and giving false hope.

 

[EIF5A]

Just a thought. To my understanding the synod is not about changing doctrine. But the conversation seems to be giving false hope to the gay community. I don’t think they want to hear about being accepted into the church witht the condition that they are chase. They want to be told that there life style is ok and acceptable. Otherwise, I think the synod is misleading them and giving false hope.

Hmm…That’s an interesting point.

And that seems to be the misleading idea that many non-Catholics believe: That one day, the Church will allow gay marriage.

How to find the balance between sharing charity and mercy without compromising faith and morals…

 

[LongingSoul]

I came across this article which I think puts things into perspective very well:

Worried About the Synod? Here Are Ten Things to Remember

I like how he says that being upset is part of the process. But of course, that’s not our ending point.

That’s a good article. I hope people will read it.

 

[Joe_5859]

That’s a good article. I hope people will read it.

I thought so. I hope people read it, too. I think it does a great job of acknowledging the struggles and the difficulties that people have without making those struggles the final word.

 

[McCall1981]

catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=1243

Ignatius Press into the Breach: Trumping the Kasper Proposal

By Dr. Jeff Mirus Oct 22, 2014

Ignatius Press deserves the gratitude of English-speaking Catholics for its publication of three books in direct response to the Kasper Proposal, as part of the discussion encouraged by Pope Francis leading up to the synods on the family. These books succeed in refuting the arguments in favor of the Kasper Proposal, situating the problem of the family within a proper understanding of Divine mercy, and urging the Church toward an evangelization which places a Christian vision of marriage and family at its very heart.

For those unfamiliar with the Kasper Proposal, it was an idea developed by Cardinal Walter Kasper that in some cases couples who had divorced and remarried outside the Church could, after a period of penance, receive communion again without abandoning what Christ regards as an adulterous relationship. Kasper found support for this proposal in some aspects of early Christian practice, occasional patristic texts, the long practice of the Orthodox churches in “tolerating” second marriages, and even the “sense of the faithful” in our own time.

This Proposal generated an important discussion prior to the 2014 Synod on the Family. And although the Synod rejected it, the problem of the dissolution of the family in the modern world obviously remains, including the vexing difficulties posed by divorce and remarriage. The three books by Ignatius Press do a superb job of not only responding to Cardinal Kasper’s specific proposal but also moving beyond it to more fruitful ways to address a grave dislocation that lies at the heart of the modern experience…

(Read the rest there)

 

[Joe_Kelley]

To quote Yogi Berra, this is “Deja vu all over again.” Proposals and speculation during VII caused many to anticipate approval of the “Pill” and other ABC. When Humanae Vitae finally quashed this, many had already acted on that anticipation and were unwilling to come back. I suspect that this may be the future with the current proposals.

 

[johnrobertson26]

After considerable soul searching I believe that the Church is suffering from the sexual/financial scandals still. I think that this could remain a problem for the Church for quite some time, or at least until the Church makes monumental changes.

These changes are unavoidable because society is also going through a tribulation concerning financial corruption, environment problems and sexual corruption. Society is very authoritarian now, and becoming more so at an accelerated rate. Society needs to change, and so they are very secular now and leaving the Church in droves. It will take a
decade for this authoritarian bent to simmer down, at which point people will return to the Church to some degree. Society needs to be authoritarian to purge the dead wood from society with fire.

I know that the Church has made huge financial changes, but I don’t know if they are sufficient. There are still huge problems concerning priest shortages, and probably sexual abuse still. I doubt that Church law will be sufficient to have satisfactory impact on sexual abuse.

Rather than liberalize the Church, I think it is better to just allow priests to marry. It is a small price to pay rather than allowing the mortal sin of homosexuality into the Church. Allowing Priests to marry would not only reduce sexual abuse, but also have incentive to bring more priests into the Church. The Church must adapt to modern society.

Unfortunately, the Church is in hot water regardless of what changes are made. It is probably inevitable that the Church will suffer huge losses, and maybe even splits, because of the problems, and the times. Pope Frances is not properly handling the problems that the Church now experiences because society and the Church is now very authoritarian, unlike the humanitarian slant of Frances. The Church must be strictly business, pragmatic and realistic, for some time, in order to do damage control.

I’m not bashing Frances, but he must change, and shelf humanistic virtues for a later time. He mistakenly believes that the problems of the Church are caused by its intolerance. The problem with the Church is simply corruption. There is certainly problems with intolerance in society and the Church, but that doesn’t mean that we must drop the
natural law of God!

Peace and Love,
John

 

[McCall1981]

Very interesting article here. It asserts that Kasper’s proposal is not intrinsically heterodox, but is a bad idea, and has already been defeated.

Do not confuse sacramental discipline and Catholic doctrine

catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=908

This why I’m so confused about how to feel now. Depending on who you listen to, the Kasper proposal is either a certainty to pass, or has already been defeated.

 

[gilliam]

This why I’m so confused about how to feel now. Depending on who you listen to, the Kasper proposal is either a certainty to pass, or has already been defeated.

Nothing has been decided; and the bishops don’t decide, the Holy Father does. The process started by the survey last year that led to the recently finished extraordinary synod which compiled a list of items to discuss during the rest of 2014 and up to the synod in October 2015.

At the October 2015 synod the bishops will create a list of recommendations for the pope for how to better minister to families. These recommendations may or may not include what came out in the final document of this year’s synod.

The Holy Father then can take these recommendations under consideration. The process then has that after the 2015 synod the Holy Father come out with guidance or an encyclical, or perhaps nothing.

The bishops make recommendations on methods, it is up to the Holy Father to direct any changes to methods of how our faith is taught. He can ignore all the recommendations and come up with an entirely different approach (it has happened before.)

Of course the Holy Father can come out with an encyclical on the family at any time and ignore this entire process (but that is unlikely at this point.)

Our Church isn’t run as a democracy or a parliamentary government and in that way our methods are no where near what protestants do. Counting how many bishops agree with one approach and how many don’t agree isn’t all that productive. The Holy Father may want to make sure a lot of bishops agree with something he will eventually decide; after all they will have to execute whatever methods he decides upon, but that may or may not be his deciding factor.

 

[McCall1981]

Nothing has been decided; and the bishops don’t decide, the Holy Father does. The process started by the survey last year that led to the recently finished extraordinary synod which compiled a list of items to discuss during the rest of 2014 and up to the synod in October 2015.

At the October 2015 synod the bishops will create a list of recommendations for the pope for how to better minister to families. These recommendations may or may not include what came out in the final document of this year’s synod.

The Holy Father then can take these recommendations under consideration. The process then has that after the 2015 synod the Holy Father come out with guidance or an encyclical, or perhaps nothing.

The bishops make recommendations on methods, it is up to the Holy Father to direct any changes to methods of how our faith is taught. He can ignore all the recommendations and come up with an entirely different approach (it has happened before.)

Of course the Holy Father can come out with an encyclical on the family at any time and ignore this entire process (but that is unlikely at this point.)

Our Church isn’t run as a democracy or a parliamentary government and in that way our methods are no where near what protestants do.

I know this.

The point I’m making is that depending who you listen to, the opinions vary wildly about much support the proposal has, and how it is fairing; all the way from “it’s sure to pass” to “it’s already been defeated”. People looking at the same facts we are, are coming to very different conclusions.

I’m not confused about what the facts are, I’m confused by what conclusion to draw from them.

 

[gilliam]

Keep in mind, next year’s synod may look and feel different from this year.

Some different bishops will be attending. The Holy Father is reducing the size of the curia so there may be less bishops from the Vatican there. Cardinal Kasper was only at this synod by special invitation, he may not be invited to the next one. Cardinal Burke will likely not be in attendance, and if in attendance not as a member of the curia. Cardinal Muller may not be a member of the curia next year either. Different players could make for a different type of synod.

 

[gilliam]

I know this.

The point I’m making is that depending who you listen to, the opinions vary wildly about much support the proposal has, and how it is fairing; all the way from “it’s sure to pass” to “it’s already been defeated”. People looking at the same facts we are, are coming to very different conclusions.

I’m not confused about what the facts are, I’m confused by what conclusion to draw from them.

There is no ‘pass’ or ‘fail’. Going into this last synod the thought was that it would lead to a recommendation of a streamlining of the annulment process. From what I can tell that is still somewhat likely and seems like something the Holy Father would like to do.

The press and outside groups have turned this into a ‘us or them’ debate. That isn’t what it should be. It should be a discussion on how we should best minister to everyone since we are all sinners. I think most of the bishops are doing that.

 

[McCall1981]

Keep in mind, next year’s synod may look and feel different from this year.

Some different bishops will be attending. The Holy Father is reducing the size of the curia so there may be less bishops from the Vatican there. Cardinal Kasper was only at this synod by special invitation, he may not be invited to the next one. Cardinal Burke will likely not be in attendance, and if in attendance not as a member of the curia. Cardinal Muller may not be a member of the curia next year either. Different players could make for a different type of synod.

Yeah, that’s true.

My understanding is that the attendance of this past Extrordinary Synod was more of a specially selected group, and the 2015 Synod will be more balanced in terms representing all of the Bishops Conferences.

Apparently at their meeting next month the USCCB will select their representatives. I read that Wuerl and Dolan are already automatically in.

 

[McCall1981]

There is no ‘pass’ or ‘fail’. Going into this last synod the thought was that it would lead to a recommendation of a streamlining of the annulment process. From what I can tell that is still somewhat likely and seems like something the Holy Father would like to do.

Well, by “pass/fail” I mean whether the Synod members would vote to propose/recommend Kasper’s ideas to the Pope for his Apostolic Exhortation. It seems to me that he would go forward with it if the Bishops propose it to him, so it really seems to come down to how they vote on it (just IMO).

I don’t think streamlining the anullment process is a good idea, but if that’s what it ends being, I will be thrilled.

 

[gilliam]

Well, by “pass/fail” I mean whether the Synod members would vote to propose/recommend Kasper’s ideas to the Pope for his Apostolic Exhortation. It seems to me that he would go forward with it if the Bishops propose it to him, so it really seems to come down to how they vote on it (just IMO).

I don’t think streamlining the anullment process is a good idea, but if that’s what it ends being, I will be thrilled.

I haven’t seen a large group of bishops agreeing with the idea that divorced people sans annulments should be allowed to partake in communion and so I don’t see that being one of the recommendations next year. That could change by then, but I doubt it. I also haven’t heard the Holy Father endorse that idea.

 

[johnrobertson26]

Keep in mind, next year’s synod may look and feel different from this year.

Some different bishops will be attending. The Holy Father is reducing the size of the curia so there may be less bishops from the Vatican there. Cardinal Kasper was only at this synod by special invitation, he may not be invited to the next one. Cardinal Burke will likely not be in attendance, and if in attendance not as a member of the curia. Cardinal Muller may not be a member of the curia next year either. Different players could make for a different type of synod.

I was reading a very right-wing politically slanted newspaper article on the Synod. Essentially it was a biased view about the results of the Synod. The author twisted the facts to suggest that Pope Frances is well supported. This is a very dangerous situation because it could result in splits in the Church, and loss of membership. Your statement above reveals that the Synods are very political, and suspicious people would think that Pope Frances is stacking future Synods with people who will support his beliefs.

In my opinion, Pope Frances does not consider world culture, or the reputation of the Church in the world. Otherwise, he would realize that the world has become very authoritarian since the 2008 economic crash, and he would also consider that the world has lost respect for the Church because of the financial and sexual abuse scandals of the Church. Authoritarianism is needed in the world, and within the Church to promote change, to purge the corruption with fire. Pope Frances is promoting humanism (law of nature) at a time when the world has the opposite culture of authoritarianism (law of power). He’s a great man, but his vision is at wrong time.

I love the Church, and I’m very concerned about it, and I pray for it. In my opinion, if the Church continues to promote humanist theology, within the next ten years, we could be in very big trouble because the world is authoritarian, and very secular because of world corruption and corruption in the Church. I f we promote humanist theology at this time we shall surely pay price.

Love and Peace
John

 

[McCall1981]

I haven’t seen a large group of bishops agreeing with the idea that divorced people sans annulments should be allowed to partake in communion and so I don’t see that being one of the recommendations next year. That could change by then, but I doubt it. I also haven’t heard the Holy Father endorse that idea.

Well good, glad to hear it

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yes, I think this debate could run out of steam in the next year. And I don’t see Pope Francis pushing it as part of an agenda (though I think he may have initially been open to the discussion as is his right). The Pope cares about the health of the Church and the divisive effects of this debate. He hit on that in his closing speech - the need to avoid extremes in the Church. The conservatives see that the Pope is clearly not with them (i.e. Burke’s demise, Kasper’s spotlight at Synod), but I think they then assume incorrectly he is completely off to the other side; he’s not. And frankly, as a man of God and a Jesuit, I am not sure the Pope’s administrative, managerial or communication skills are the best - imagine Henry David Thoreau as our President. … This adds to the confusion and paranoia of conservatives. (and will continue to do so)

 

[gilliam]

I was reading a very right-wing politically slanted newspaper article on the Synod. Essentially it was a biased view about the results of the Synod. The author twisted the facts to suggest that Pope Frances is well supported.

Of course he is well supported, he is the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God! We have to get it out of our heads that he is some elected official sitting in Washington that we can vote out of office. The bishops understand this, I don’t know if all the faithful do.

This is a very dangerous situation because it could result in splits in the Church, and loss of membership.

I seriously doubt that. Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.

Your statement above reveals that the Synods are very political, and suspicious people would think that Pope Frances is stacking future Synods with people who will support his beliefs.

Synods may be political, but they are advisory only and what they recommend can and sometimes is, ignored by the Holy Father.

In my opinion, Pope Frances does not consider world culture, or the reputation of the Church in the world.

The Holy Father, unlike a number in the curia, has lived in the trenches. He has ministered to the poor as well as the middle class. He knows the pains and troubles that lay Catholics have. He has also interacted with world leaders.

Otherwise, he would realize that the world has become very authoritarian since the 2008 economic crash, and he would also consider that the world has lost respect for the Church
because of the financial and sexual abuse scandals of the Church.

I think he understands world culture and the reputation of the Church in the world quite well. Why do you think he is redoing the curia, the Vatican Bank, telling bishops to stop living so ‘high on the hog’ and why he is slamming the book down on clerics who stray from their vow of celibacy?

Authoritarianism is needed in the world, and within the Church to promote change, to purge the corruption with fire.

see above

Pope Frances is promoting humanism (law of nature) at a time when the world has the opposite culture of authoritarianism (law of power). He’s a great man, but his vision is at wrong time.

Pope Francis promotes God’s law which includes natural law. He is teaching us to keep our eyes on the Good News of Jesus Christ.

I love the Church, and I’m very concerned about it, and I pray for it. In my opinion, if the Church continues to promote humanist theology, within the next ten years, we could be in very big trouble because the world is authoritarian, and very secular because of world corruption and corruption in the Church. I f we promote humanist theology at this time we shall surely pay price.

Pope Francis is nothing like a humanist, he’s a Catholic.

Love and Peace
John

Same to you John, relax a bit.