Open Thread on Zimmerman Trial

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At the very least, I think Zimmerman was profoundly foolish to do what he did. He was not a cop, and he had no business stalking someone. He was a private citizen, and there is no evidence that Trayvon was an immediate threat to Zimmerman or anyone else in the neighborhood… If Zimmerman thought he was suspicious, he should have called the police and left it there.

Whether Zimmerman was justified in defending himself, that will be for the jury to decide. He is innocent until proven guilty. However, Zimmerman created the situation by stalking another person. Now a person is dead and many lives have been ruined as a result. Tragic no matter how you look at it.
 
There never will be true justice in this case, regardless of the merits of either side. The arch liberal mass media judged Zimmerman guilty on the first day.
The young lad was nothing more that a spoiled, teenager from a priviledged background, who just happened to be black and resented anyone who represented authority to him.
Right or wrong, a black teenager wandering in a Southern, gated, community is enough to arouse suspicion, especially in someone who is trained as a civilian community watchdog. It was a disaster waiting to happen, especially when the young man chose to expose his resentments against “whitey” and “crackers” and fight back. The fact that he fought with anyone in a State having liberal “concealed carry” and self defense laws was particularly stupid.
If the young man had not been black, and/or his father had not been an attorney who brought in the national mass media, none of us outside of Florida would have heard anything about.
What nobody wants to discuss is that regardless of the outcome of this trial, the young man’s parents are going to file gazillion dollar lawsuits against everyone in sight! Wanna bet?
 
There never will be true justice in this case, regardless of the merits of either side. The arch liberal mass media judged Zimmerman guilty on the first day.
The young lad was nothing more that a spoiled, teenager from a priviledged background, who just happened to be black and resented anyone who represented authority to him.
Right or wrong, a black teenager wandering in a Southern, gated, community is enough to arouse suspicion, especially in someone who is trained as a civilian community watchdog. It was a disaster waiting to happen, especially when the young man chose to expose his resentments against “whitey” and “crackers” and fight back. The fact that he fought with anyone in a State having liberal “concealed carry” and self defense laws was particularly stupid.
If the young man had not been black, and/or his father had not been an attorney who brought in the national mass media, none of us outside of Florida would have heard anything about.
What nobody wants to discuss is that regardless of the outcome of this trial, the young man’s parents are going to file gazillion dollar lawsuits against everyone in sight! Wanna bet?
George Zimmerman is no “authority .” He’s not even a police officer. The Neighborhood watch program explicitly states not to follow anyone; to call the police. If he had followed instructions none of this would have happened.

I disagree if this was not a young black man we would not have heard about it.
Maybe if he was a young white man he would be alive.
 
The prosecution made a huge mistake charging him with murder, I voted for manslaughter.
I’m in favor of citizens being able to carry guns for self-defense but I thinks some states’ SYG and “make my day” laws go too far.
In the Zimmerman case we have only his word that Martin threw the first punch – and, really what else is he going to say? But imagine Martin was the armed party, they fight and Zimmerman wound up dead. I doubt Martin would have been let go after perfunctory questioning as originally happened with Zimmerman.

Last word on guns. Yes, I support the right to carry, but guns warp people’s judgment. I suspect just having a gun with you boosts testosterone and adrenaline.
Would an unarmed Zimmerman ever have left his car? There was another case where a man waiting in a parking lot approached a car full of teenagers to tell them to turn down their blasting stereo. He blasted away after claiming one of them pointed a gun at him. They took off, were found shortly after and no gun was found. Again, I doubt he would have ever approached the car without a gun.

It’s all hypothetical anyway, Zimmerman will be acquitted.
 
At the very least, I think Zimmerman was profoundly foolish to do what he did. He was not a cop, and he had no business stalking someone. He was a private citizen, and there is no evidence that Trayvon was an immediate threat to Zimmerman or anyone else in the neighborhood… If Zimmerman thought he was suspicious, he should have called the police and left it there.

Whether Zimmerman was justified in defending himself, that will be for the jury to decide. He is innocent until proven guilty. However, Zimmerman created the situation by stalking another person. Now a person is dead and many lives have been ruined as a result. Tragic no matter how you look at it.
Now this man is reasoning with common sense! Peace, Carlan
 
The prosecution made a huge mistake charging him with murder, I voted for manslaughter.
I’m in favor of citizens being able to carry guns for self-defense but I thinks some states’ SYG and “make my day” laws go too far.
In the Zimmerman case we have only his word that Martin threw the first punch – and, really what else is he going to say? But imagine Martin was the armed party, they fight and Zimmerman wound up dead. I doubt Martin would have been let go after perfunctory questioning as originally happened with Zimmerman.

Last word on guns. Yes, I support the right to carry, but guns warp people’s judgment. I suspect just having a gun with you boosts testosterone and adrenaline.
Would an unarmed Zimmerman ever have left his car? There was another case where a man waiting in a parking lot approached a car full of teenagers to tell them to turn down their blasting stereo. He blasted away after claiming one of them pointed a gun at him. They took off, were found shortly after and no gun was found. Again, I doubt he would have ever approached the car without a gun.

It’s all hypothetical anyway, Zimmerman will be acquitted.
Solipsistic? so right for the most part, I gotta get away from this media a lot!😉 Peace, Carlan
 
Martin was standing on top of him punching him and beating his head into the sidewalk. That justifies the use of lethal force.
 
Some have said that there wasn’t supposed to be any trial to begin with. Others have raised concerns about this possibly happening to them if they were to defend themselves.

I can only hope that one would say the same thing if their son (or daughter) goes out at night and doesn’t return home because someone concluded he was suspicious by walking about in the rain. Assuming one has paid attention to the details of the story coming from someone who told police he has a “bad memory”, a “terrible memory” [1] (bold his own words) and was on medication for attention deficit disorder; and this exact incident happens to the person’s child and they believe there is no need for a trial or see this as just someone defending himself, then respect!

Trayvon was only walking back home but somehow he was suspicious in Zimmerman’s eyes. Zimmerman made references to break-ins in their neighbourhood. He said Trayvon was just walking in the rain. (Zimmerman seemed to emphasis that it was strange Trayvon was walking in the rain because he said it didn’t look like Trayvon was in a rush to get out of the rain nor did it look it was someone exercising in the rain. Trayvon looked out of place from what Zimmerman said he was taught [2].) “This guy looks like he is up to no good or he is on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” [3]
Zimmerman said “these *** holes, they always get away” [3] And according to Zimmerman, he was a “****ing punk.”[4]

Then the running claim and Zimmerman following or not following Trayvon:
“**** he is running” [3]. But he admitted to Hannity that Trayvon wasn’t actually running [5]. (It is only fair to pay attention to changes in his story.)
Zimmerman told police that Trayvon came close to his car and he was afraid and didn’t want to confront him [1]. And that he didn’t follow Martin but left his car to find the street name [1]. But he admitted to 911 and the police that he was following him [3][2]. But he later again told police that he wasn’t following Trayvon, but rather, “I was just going in the same direction he was.” “Serino: That’s following (laughs).” [5]

Continued on next post.
 
The next important thing to analyse is Zimmerman’s injuries and his description of the ordeal:
There are pictures of the injuries moments after the shooting and barely an hour after the shooting.
These are the pictures moments after the shooting:

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Yes, we can see blood….

The second set of pictures which were taken barely an hour after the shooting clearly show that his injuries were minor. (That’s in line with the paramedic’s report.)

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The police officer examining him had concerns about Zimmerman’s description of the alleged beating he received and the injuries he sustained. He tried to get some answers from Zimmerman. Zimmerman said Trayvon “kept punching my face and my head….” [2] “Every time he punched my nose….” [1] “He took my head and slammed it into the concrete several times. And each time I felt like my head was going to explode more than the last. I felt like I was going to lose consciousness…” [2] But when asked how his head was grabbed, he said he couldn’t remember [1]. When asked how often he was punched, he said he could not remember [1].

A couple of posters here suggested that maybe it happened in the grass, but I will repeat what Zimmerman clearly said “He took my head and slammed it into the concrete several times. And each time I felt like my head was going to explode more than the last. I felt like I was going to lose consciousness…

His injuries do not at all reflect his life-threatening description of the supposed beating he was receiving. Also, it is important to analyse the duration of the beating.

Continued on next post.
 
The first caller called at 7:16:11 [6]. The gun shot was heard at 7:16:55 [6] (i.e. 44 seconds into the call). So the beating lasted for at least 44 seconds. I say at least because we don’t know how long the caller took to initiate the call and when exactly the confrontation started. Zimmerman ended his 911 call at 7:13:40 [7] or 7:15 [8]. That means this ordeal lasted at least 44 seconds and at most 2 minutes 31 seconds or 1 minute 11 seconds depending on when Zimmerman actually hung up. So Zimmerman was being beaten as he claimed for at least 44 seconds. Zimmerman who has two hands claimed he never got a single chance to fight back [1]. So basically, all Zimmerman could do during this ordeal was to shoot Trayvon Martin. He said he didn’t know he had hit Trayvon although he shot at point-blank range and had previously described how he aimed his gun at him. [2]

If you believe this incident was normal and shouldn’t have gone to trial, I assume you would say the same thing if it were to happen to your child, God forbid!

References
[1] Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 1
[2] Video: Computer voice stress test analysis by police
[3] Transcript of George Zimmerman’s Call to the Police
[4] Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 3
[5] George Zimmerman’s Exclusive Full Interview With Sean Hannity
[6] 9-1-1 calls
[7] George Zimmerman Police Call w. Time Stamps and Notes
[8] What is known, what isn’t about Trayvon Martin’s death
 
Last word on guns. Yes, I support the right to carry, but guns warp people’s judgment. I suspect just having a gun with you boosts testosterone and adrenaline.
.
Will we soon see advertisements from Ruger promoting its LC9 as a healthy alternative to Viagra? 🤷
 
His injuries do not at all reflect his life-threatening description of the supposed beating he was receiving. Also, it is important to analyse the duration of the beating.

Continued on next post.
Why deny what is plainly visible? :rolleyes:
 
The first caller called at 7:16:11 [6]. The gun shot was heard at 7:16:55 [6] (i.e. 44 seconds into the call). So the beating lasted for at least 44 seconds. I say at least because we don’t know how long the caller took to initiate the call and when exactly the confrontation started. Zimmerman ended his 911 call at 7:13:40 [7] or 7:15 [8]. That means this ordeal lasted at least 44 seconds and at most 2 minutes 31 seconds or 1 minute 11 seconds depending on when Zimmerman actually hung up. So Zimmerman was being beaten as he claimed for at least 44 seconds. Zimmerman who has two hands claimed he never got a single chance to fight back [1]. So basically, all Zimmerman could do during this ordeal was to shoot Trayvon Martin. He said he didn’t know he had hit Trayvon although he shot at point-blank range and had previously described how he aimed his gun at him. [2]

If you believe this incident was normal and shouldn’t have gone to trial, I assume you would say the same thing if it were to happen to your child, God forbid!

References
[1] Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 1
[2] Video: Computer voice stress test analysis by police
[3] Transcript of George Zimmerman’s Call to the Police
[4] Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 3
[5] George Zimmerman’s Exclusive Full Interview With Sean Hannity
[6] 9-1-1 calls
[7] George Zimmerman Police Call w. Time Stamps and Notes
[8] What is known, what isn’t about Trayvon Martin’s death
I love how you have completely ignored the trial testimony, again.
 
Will we soon see advertisements from Ruger promoting its LC9 as a healthy alternative to Viagra? 🤷
What on earth are you talking about…do you have to reference everything toward sex?
What has ever happened to purity of mind as in the Beatitudes? Peace, Carlan
 
I love how you have completely ignored the trial testimony, again.
How is presenting documents about a case identical to completely ignoring ongoing trial testimonies?

Why don’t you take your time and neutralise everything I have said by refuting each argument I presented with a reference to the appropriate trial testimony? I’ll be waiting.
 
In the Zimmerman case we have only his word that Martin threw the first punch – and, really what else is he going to say? But imagine Martin was the armed party, they fight and Zimmerman wound up dead. I doubt Martin would have been let go after perfunctory questioning as originally happened with Zimmerman.

Actually, in your hypothetical situation I believe no charges would have been filed against Martin. (Assuming like Zimmerman, his story was consistent and there was no evidence to contradict his claim). Every prosecution witness thus far has provided testimony completely consistent with Zimmerman’s story. (well except for the one woman saying there were three gunshots and Martin was shot in the back while laying on the ground). Recall Zimmerman stated that Martin came up to him, after Zimmerman had lost Martin (Martin told the girl on the phone he’d lost Zimmerman as well), as Zimmerman was trying to determine the address/street as he headed back to his truck to meet the police. One witness was persistent in insisting it was difficult to determine addresses/streets due to poor signage and shrubbery. The girl confirmed it was Martin who started the conversation by asking why Zimmerman had been following him. A perfectly legal thing to do. However, being good at fighting isn’t a crime. If Martin had perceived his life at risk because of something Zimmerman did, there’s no legal requirement to be injured. You can dodge a blow and fight back.

Last word on guns. Yes, I support the right to carry, but guns warp people’s judgment. I suspect just having a gun with you boosts testosterone and adrenaline.
Would an unarmed Zimmerman ever have left his car?

Sorry, the vast majority of CCW holders show a reduced tendency to challenge others or get into physical confrontations.I think that really was the basic issue here. Martin thought of fighting as a sport- there are winners/losers. It’s about proving oneself. CCW holders are taught that they are carrying lethal force and fighting as combat. There are survivors and the dead. A gun can not be drawn until one is in fear of imminent serious bodily harm. It can not be used to threaten or intimidate (that’s actually a felony in and of itself. So by and large the statistics show that CCW holders are far more restrained than the average person. It appears that Zimmerman had contemplated these things or gotten pretty good training in Florida on CCW. His actions after the incident were consistent with that, ensure the LEO knew he was armed when they showed up. Expect to be handcuffed. You only draw the weapon, much less use it in self-defense. A tragic incident.

It’s all hypothetical anyway, Zimmerman will be acquitted.

We"'ll have to see. Although the prosecution’s investigator admitted in the early stages of the investigation that they had nothing to contradict Zimmerman’s story, and they haven’t provided anything yet, they may be saving the best for last. The prosecution slow-rolled a lot of discovery.

I would never predict a jury’s decision. There perception could be different than ours, and some things we’re factoring in may be things they aren’t aware of, similar to the OJ trial. There were facts reported in the press that were never presented to the jury. Members of that jury said they probably would have ruled differently if those things had been presented in court.
 
At the very least, I think Zimmerman was profoundly foolish to do what he did. He was not a cop, and he had no business stalking someone. He was a private citizen, and there is no evidence that Trayvon was an immediate threat to Zimmerman or anyone else in the neighborhood… If Zimmerman thought he was suspicious, he should have called the police and left it there.

Whether Zimmerman was justified in defending himself, that will be for the jury to decide. He is innocent until proven guilty. However, Zimmerman created the situation by stalking another person. Now a person is dead and many lives have been ruined as a result. Tragic no matter how you look at it.
This is the closest to how I see it. I don 't believe Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder, but had he stayed in the car and not pursued, as was instructed by 911 operators, he would have saved himself and the Martin family a lot of heartache.
 
George Zimmerman is no “authority .” He’s not even a police officer. The Neighborhood watch program explicitly states not to follow anyone; to call the police. If he had followed instructions none of this would have happened.

I disagree if this was not a young black man we would not have heard about it.
Maybe if he was a young white man he would be alive.
Well the Sanford PD neighborhood watch lead testified differently. She stated that folks should follow from a ‘safe distance’. The HOA president as well testified that was the understanding of the Police’s NW guidance and in fact a burglar was caught under that guidance- observers following from a safe distance.
 
The next important thing to analyse is Zimmerman’s injuries and his description of the ordeal:
Sorry, the extent of injuries is a distraction.

Truly. If Martin had lived through this, killing Zimmerman, and had no absolutely no injuries, but claimed he did it because Zimmerman rushed him and Martin stated he was in fear of imminent serious bodily harm- that would be a valid claim to self-defense. The law does not require one to suffer serious injury prior to resorting to self-defense. Would be kind of foolish if it did- how do you read other person’s mind and be sure you know how far they’re willing to take it? If you’re suffering blows to the head, how do you know when you’re on the edge of losing consciousness, being killed?

A referee at a soccer match died recently from one punch to the head from one of the players. A relative of mine died from tripping and their head hitting the sidewalk.

You claim these are minor injuries. Which isn’t relevant. What is are the circumstances under which they were suffered. A 5’11 160 pound fit young man on top of another pinned beneath him. (assuming Zimmerman’s story is correct). How does the pinned person in those circumstances know what kind of injuries they’ve received. More importantly— do they have reason to fear that they are in fact in danger of serious bodily harm?
 
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