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kelvinf
Guest
That witness said that initially, he couldn’t see them until they moved somewhat closer.
Zimmerman said he was on top of Martin after he had shot him…
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Zimmerman said he was on top of Martin after he had shot him…
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styrgwillidar
Guest
I just said I would not behave like Zimmerman.
I won’t look out for my neighbors, I won’t risk forming or taking part in forming any neighborhood watch because if anything happens it will be used to portray me as racist, wanting to start something, power hungry etc. etc. etc. Even if I’m just going to the store to get groceries, I’ll be accused in any random encounter for any reason of various nefarious motives. Regardless of my background. Regardless of the training and the assessment of the police departments representative that I’m sincerely trying to help out my neighbors.
Sorry, in the words of Rick from Casablanca, “I stick my neck out for nobody” is the lesson to be drawn here.
Folks will create scenarios and treat them as facts. Again, there’s evidence showing Zimmerman did not continue to follow Martin. Did he or didn’t he? I don’t know. Since I don’t know I won’t make the assumption he did, especially when there is evidence to support his statement that he stopped and lost sight of Martin.
I think a lot of folks have never really been in a serious fight. One with an unknown opponent, one where you have no idea what the other person is thinking or their intentions. It can be very hard to control someone who is determined, no matter their size, especially one you are caught off guard. Or have seen folks who’ve gotten into fights thinking you can just push, shove and punch.
Ever hear of OODA loop theory? Observe, Orient, Decide Act?
Zimmerman’s story is he was surprised when Martin appeared, we have Jeantel and Zimmerman and other witnesses agreeing there was a verbal exchange of some sort. The first reaction in any emergency is disbelief- this can’t be happening to me. It’s why high risk activities and occupations drill and drill on emergencies, to get over that reaction through familiarization in training. Zimmerman claims he was punched in the nose as they were talking. As I said before, I’m very fit, but someone much smaller and determined could certainly take me out if I wasn’t truly mentally prepared.
Ever get punched hard in the face? Have your nose broken? See stars and have your eyes tearing up? It can be very disorienting, even for someone engaged in a sporting contest (MMA, boxing, etc.) Is that how it happened? I don’t know, but that’s Zimmerman’s story and his face/nose were damaged badly enough that night that someone who knew him couldn’t identify him.
Would I carry a gun like Zimmerman? Sorry, I can’t in my jurisdiction, the law abiding are prohibited the means of defending themselves despite it not being a police responsibility. In addition to the national precedent (Warren vs DC, Castle Rock vs Gonzales, Riss vs The City of New York etc. etc.) my state actually has codified it in the law that no government official in any capacity can be held liable for failing to prevent any crime or failure to apprehend any criminal. Well, some law abiding can, if you’re a politician or contribute large sums to the local sheriff’s election campaign as a demonstration of your good judgement.
Maybe I would if I could. I have fire alarms, smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, a portable escape ladder, health insurance, auto insurance, life insurance, motorcycle safety gear. (oddly, having these things doesn’t mean I want my house to burn, get in car/motorcycle wrecks, come down with cancer-- I see those as bad things, it’s why I take precautions etc.) Stuff you really, really don’t want to have to use but are indispensable in the off-chance you need them.
Nah, I won’t behave like Zimmerman. I don’t really see any upside to being a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, having folks casting aspersions on my character and impugning my motives.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
And that certainly could be the case. Without having someone around or definitive evidence who could confirm who turned it physical we are left with that very unsatisfying requirement to go on the legal basis of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
ETA: Since Zimmerman was struggling and screaming it doesn’t appear there would have been anything to make Martin believe Zimmerman had given up and was no longer a threat. Nothing to put the legal burden on him to stop for the cessation of a threat, if indeed Zimmerman was the initial attacker.
Your beliefs have little to do with the evidence.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
They have a lot to do with the evidence including but not limited to Zimmerman’s lies and history of violence and aggressive behavior.
The injuries to Zimmerman would seem to indicate otherwise.
The witness that identified people placed Trayvon on top.
Which evidence would this be?
Trayvon’s blodied knuckles?
Zimmerman’s busted nose?
Zimmerman’s head injuries?
The witness that saw the beating and Trayvon on top?
Perhaps the blatant racism displayed by Trayvon pushed your mountain of evidence.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Today for the first time I heard the entire phone call that Z made to the police. It was clear to me, from his breathing and from his words, that he was seriously frightened. Whether the fear was rational or irrational, I wouldn’t know, but people are rarely convicted when they act out of fear. We’ll have to see.
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MaryT777
Guest
Are you a voice analyst expert? Interesting take and it was so “clear” to you.
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kelvinf
Guest
Nay. 2nd and 3rd degrees of murder also include intention.
Second Degree Murder: Definition
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable “heat of passion”; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.
First versus Second Degree Murder
The essential elements of second-degree murder differ from those of first degree murder. The criminal act for both crimes is the same: the killing of another person. What separates the two is the perpetrator’s mental state at the time of the killing.
First degree murder involves a premeditated killing. In other words, the killer made a plan to kill the victim and then carried that plan out. Second degree murder does not require premeditation, however. Instead, there are three typical situations that can constitute second degree murder:
A killing done impulsively without premeditation, but with malice aforethought
A killing that results from an act intended to cause serious bodily harm
A killing that results from an act that demonstrates the perpetrators depraved indifference to human life
criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html
Voluntary Manslaughter: Definition
Voluntary manslaughter is commonly defined as an intentional killing in which the offender had no prior intent to kill, such as a killing that occurs in the “heat of passion.” The circumstances leading to the killing must be the kind that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed; otherwise, the killing may be charged as a first-degree or second-degree murder.
criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/voluntary-manslaughter-overview.html
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Seamus_L
Guest
Trayvon Martin was a slender, probably fleet footed young man, since he was said to have played Cornerback in football, while George Zimmerman was pudgy and a bit overweight. Martin in any situation could have gotten away from him and made it home safely, but unfortunately, I believe the most likely scenario, is that Martin, like alot of other foolish young men, probably felt his sense of honor demanded that he go back and confront the person who had been following him.
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kelvinf
Guest
If he were indeed frightened, then why didn’t he stay put inside his car?
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SamH
Guest
Civic duty?If he were indeed frightened, then why didn’t he stay put inside his car?
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MaryT777
Guest
He was like a lot of other FOOLISH young men? Who wants to be followed like a suspect when walking with skittles and an iced tea?
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MaryT777
Guest
Exactly; he didn’t even want to pin down a location at first to meet the police. He wanted them to call him .He had more “police work” to do; like follow Martin more.If he were indeed frightened, then why didn’t he stay put inside his car?
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SamH
Guest
Source?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
He is brave?If he were indeed frightened, then why didn’t he stay put inside his car?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
And that’s reason enough to beat somebody up and tell them you’re going to die today???
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estesbob
Guest
The question is does the defense even need to present their case?
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