Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

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And bear spray can severely injure someone and may not even be legal to use in some jurisdictions. It’s not actually permitted where I live.

GZ was legally allowed to be where he was. That’s all that matters.
Abortion is legal too but I don’t think that’s all that matters.
This is gibberish. I literally don’t know what you’re talking about. There was not even an allegation he was carrying illegally in the case.
If you want to debate, please refrain from personal insult. We have carried on a conversation. It’s unfair to enter a debate and just personally insult someone. Was that addressed to you??? I see in fact it wasn’t. If you have to insult, perhaps you don’t have a winning argument!
Oh, geez, not this again. I refuse to engage in any further discussion with someone who is so brazenly dishonest to throw this kind of stale, disproven poor innocent baby Tray meme out there. I would expect people who self-identify as Catholic to have a better grasp on things like truth and honesty, but wow, can’t count on that.
Good, you don’t seem to argue but tossing insults and negatives at someone.
 
Silliness as usual??

.
Yes, it is complete silliness that you assume that because he hasn’t gotten his gun returned yet ) what 1 week after the verdict lol), that it’s because he has been deemed unfit to have it. When in actuality it’s being held as possible evidence in DOJs fantasyland “civil rights” case.

Please cite your source that he has had his 2nd amendment rights stripped.
 
Abortion is legal too but I don’t think that’s all that matters.
So being outside his car in his own community in a public areais the moral equivalent of obtaining an abortion? Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Good, you don’t seem to argue but tossing insults and negatives at someone.
Hard to have an honest discussion with someone who doesn’t acknowledge truth or facts and instead trades in speculation, innuendo, and gossip.
 
Personally, as a woman I was offended at all the media stereotyping of the jury as if we can’t understand the facts. Especially the comments about how Martin’s mothers testimony was supposed to be so powerful and play on our poor little hearts. She had no evidence to testify to though. She wasn’t a witness even second hand. I’m sorry her son is dead, but she had no true evidence to testify to. To me the forensic evidence was most compelling and I didn’t think the case hung on who was screaming. I doubt she had ever heard her child scream in the that kind of situation before anyway, so as to make an accurate comparison. I hope none of ever do.
I think reasonable jury members must discount to a large extent family members’ testimonies on both sides, unless the family testifies AGAINST their own side, which would surely cause one to wonder.
 
Silliness as usual??

**Are you the one who stated it has been said a million times, it doesn’t matter who started a fight in personal defense?? So that means that was wrong a million times. ** You do acknowledge this? I don’t find I have to hurl a personal attack at someone in making an argument.

If you want to debate, that is one thing. If you want to make personal insults, I don’t think Catholic Answers Forums are for that purpose.
It’s not insulting to bring up for about the 99th time that you continue to post a made up scenario that never happened, attribute motivation to a man you never met much less know, and a complete disregard for the facts, the diligence of the jury, the process.

My last word to you since you don’t bother to address posts:
  1. Martin was acting suspiciously in the context of the time of day, the weather, and his behavior. If he had been proceeding directly home instead of wandering around appearing to be looking into homes, he would not have caught Zimmerman’s notice
  2. Zimmerman was on his way to Target to buy groceries when he noticed Martin. He was not on Neighborhood Watch patrol although his involvement on NW perhaps made him more aware of neighborhood crimes and thus more observant of apparent strangers acting strangely
  3. Zimmerman did not stalk Martin. If anything the reverse is true based on testimony by multiple sources
  4. Martin could have escaped, in fact he did get away from Zimmerman
  5. He chose to turn around and confront Zimmerman
  6. Zimmerman sustained severe injuries and threat to his life BEFORE he pulled the gun.
  7. He shot Martin one time, he did not empty his gun
NOTHING you claim is true other than the obvious fact that Martin is dead and Zimmerman held the gun. That does not make him guilty of manslaughter much less Murder 2

Lisa
 
Please forgive any glaring typos, I can’t keep the cats off my desk at the moment and they keep walking on my keyboard and blocking my view.

Cute, but makes it hard to type so I keep having to edit to fix the typos
 
Zimmerman has not gotten his gun back and likely, he may have his Conceal and Carry permit revoked. This should serve as after the fact confirmation, his responsibility and conduct as a gun owner is very much in question.
Under Florida law, eligibility for a concealed weapons permit can be revoked if an individual has been convicted of a felony, misdemeanor crime of violence, domestic violence incident or certain alcohol or substance abuse offenses.

He hasn’t gotten his gun back because of the investigation of the justice department. It is felt that no charges will be brought. We shall see.
 
The media has blown this case way out of proportion,

He acted in self-defence.

While it is tragic Trayvon was killed, according to your laws, deadly force is legal, and in which case there is nothing more to it than that.
 
It’s not insulting to bring up for about the 99th time that you continue to post a made up scenario that never happened, attribute motivation to a man you never met much less know, and a complete disregard for the facts, the diligence of the jury, the process.
What made up scenario. Oh look here, you have to get in the last word.

All falsehoods, I have not posted any made up scenarios but one time in this thread to show other versions are just as feasible as George Zimmerman. That Zimmerman has a narrative but it is not proven by fact.
My last word to you since you don’t bother to address posts:
Are you confusing me with someone else? I have not ignored responding to posts.
  1. Martin was acting suspiciously in the context of the time of day, the weather, and his behavior. If he had been proceeding directly home instead of wandering around appearing to be looking into homes, he would not have caught Zimmerman’s notice
We know this. Is wandering around looking at homes a misdemeanor? Trespassing?

Is this again, only George Zimmerman’s word? Does it go from “looking at homes” on the 911 tape to “looking into homes?”

Please find the exact quote, if I may, where Zimmerman even says “Trayvon Martin was looking into homes”. That is not ready to be found. I even accepted one poster’s word on this so as not to be overly argumentative and just accept, “okay, so the reconstruction says Trayvon actually looked into homes”, yet now, with your demeanor, perhaps this exact point needs to be proven to see who is actually stating falsehoods.

And you say others are stating falsehoods??
  1. Zimmerman was on his way to Target to buy groceries when he noticed Martin. He was not on Neighborhood Watch patrol although his involvement on NW perhaps made him more aware of neighborhood crimes and thus more observant of apparent strangers acting strangely
Do you think we are stating something we don’t already know??? That’s two of them and number one is not consistent. We don’t know if it is a statement of fact “Martin looked INTO homes”.
  1. Zimmerman did not stalk Martin. If anything the reverse is true based on testimony by multiple sources
I have not said Zimmerman stalked Martin. Did I quote someone who said so from a news article?? Possibly, but I have never said that.
As to multiple sources, Zimmerman would assert Martin sucker punched him. I’m not sure if we have multiple sources unless Rachel Jeantel’s testimony may suggest that which has been discounted by many on this forum.

Looks like you aren’t scoring high on the truth meter.
  1. Martin could have escaped, in fact he did get away from Zimmerman
Yes, people can escape but this is not 100% proven that one can escape safely.
  1. He chose to turn around and confront Martin
From the defendant’s testimony and perhaps Rachel Jeantel’s testimony reflects this. Little else does.
  1. Zimmerman sustained severe injuries and threat to his life BEFORE he pulled the gun.
Actually, a semi-broken nose and abrasions to the back of the head are not severe injuries, score another for you in the wrong column.

“Threat to his life” is debatable. We can witness many fights and say the winner is threatening the life of the loser. We simply do not know.

We do know in Martin’s interview, he asserts the stranger Trayvon Martin says “Tonight you are going to die”, this may not be in the initial interview but on the subsequent ones after he may have seen his Judge Father and happens to strengthen the case for self-defense.
  1. He shot Martin one time, he did not empty his gun
Certainly I have never said Zimmerman emptied his gun. I think we all know the basic facts of this situation. Perhaps you are confusing me for someone else.
NOTHING you claim is true other than the obvious fact that Martin is dead and Zimmerman held the gun. That does not make him guilty of manslaughter much less Murder 2
Your statement is an ABSURDITY! You have not shown ONE thing I have said that was FALSE unless for hypothetical reasons, I brought up a counter-scenario only in pointing out the theory many here accept as True, Zimmerman’s version is basically ONLY his narrative as well.

In the light of that, that we only have Zimmerman’s testimony to many of these statements, there is NO reason to assert a different set of events, but i only did that in one case to MaryJK to indicate Zimmerman’s defense is largely a theory too because we know so little.

The 911 tape and a few witness who saw a struggle in the dark, there is not that much evidence either way, hence, he can’t be convicted of the crime.

However, I think there is ample evidence that his conduct is not exemplary and one can seriously question his responsible gun-ownership.
 
The media has blown this case way out of proportion,

He acted in self-defence.

While it is tragic Trayvon was killed, according to your laws, deadly force is legal, and in which case there is nothing more to it than that.
The Defense of George Zimmerman states he acted in Self-Defense, however he was simply found “Not Guilty” of having committed murder or other crimes.
self-de·fense
[self-di-fens, self-] Show IPA
noun
1.the act of defending one’s person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant: the art of self-defense.
2.a claim or plea that the use of force or injuring or killing another was necessary in defending one’s own person from physical attack: He shot the man who was trying to stab him and pleaded self-defense at the murder trial.
3.an act or instance of defending or protecting one’s own interests, property, ideas, etc., as by argument or strategy.
Also, especially British, self-de·fence.
We can’t be 100% sure if Trayvon Martin first physically attacked George Zimmerman,

This article goes into depth slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/07/george_zimmerman_and_self_defense_why_it_was_too_easy_for_him_to_get_off.html

That what seems to be at play here is whom actually started the fight.
If the other person is dead, and there are no witnesses, as long as you tell the police, “He started it and I thought he was reaching for a gun” you have created some evidence that you acted in self-defense. And at that point, prosecutors have the burden of proof to show otherwise. Zimmerman was acquitted because the state couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that
 
which has no bearing on this case.
Why does it have no bearing on this case? Your statement appears to be false.
self-de·fense[self-di-fens, self-] Show IPA
noun
1.the act of defending one’s person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant: the art of self-defense.
2.a claim or plea that the use of force or injuring or killing another was necessary in defending one’s own person from physical attack: He shot the man who was trying to stab him and pleaded self-defense at the murder trial.
3.an act or instance of defending or protecting one’s own interests, property, ideas, etc., as by argument or strategy.
Also, especially British, self-de·fence.
 
it has not been disproven,which has to happen for him to be found guilty 🤷
🤷

Source?

A verdict of not guilty is not dependent on proving or disproving George Zimmerman’s defense.

If one reads the Jury Instructions that were issued and already cited in this thread and linked, the instructions said George Zimmerman did not even have to prove anything. If he did not even have to prove anything, then why would his defense have to be disproven?

It’s hard to follow this logic, the jury simply found a vertict of not guilty, the State presents a case of guilt and failed to do so.

media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2013/07/12/jury_instructions_1.pdf

Self Defense is but one issue, an issue in this trial but not the only one. Page 14, Zimmerman did not have to prove anything.
 
Why does it have no bearing on this case? Your statement appears to be false.
flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter776/All
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
 
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
So who started the fight still matters in Florida, there is a condition on it and furthermore, we are only taking George Zimmerman’s word here.

Also again the Jury Instructions: media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2013/07/12/jury_instructions_1.pdf

Show George Zimmerman did not need to disprove anything. A finding of “not guilty” is not necessarily a finding of “Not Guilty because of Self Defense.”
 
To those of you who persist in labeling this tragic incident as one only committed because GZ was out to get TM due to his color. Here is something to chew on.Last year a thirteen month old BABY was shot point blank in the face by a black teen.Why,because he and another guy were in the process of robbing this baby’s Mother.When she didn’t have the money they were looking for,this black kid killed this baby.This occurred in public while the mother was merely taking a walk with her son in his stroller! Sooo,if you don’t recall this incident,that is no surprise,considering the media has suppressed coverage as well as Obama has not said a word. Another interesting fact,this baby was half Hispanic.So,do you think he was killed because of HIS race by the black youth?Was this a case of racial
profiling,I think not!:😦
 
So being outside his car in his own community in a public areais the moral equivalent of obtaining an abortion? Thanks for clearing that up for us.
I think the only analogy I made is that both are legal. Nothing about moral equivalency.
Hard to have an honest discussion with someone who doesn’t acknowledge truth or facts and instead trades in speculation, innuendo, and gossip
Are you saying this about a certain person??

I have acknowledged the truth or facts of this case, we are all speculating here, I’m not even sure how to address this. I have dealt in facts. Your innuendo and gossip allegations are way off base too. I would not assert such allegations in a post addressed to me. So you demonstrate innuendo in your post.

This is just a broadside attack. Again, perhaps it points out that one is not refuting the arguments of another so uses a different tact.

Speculation is common on this forum, perhaps you should petition for a change in rules if you don’t think people should think on these subjects.
 
Personally, as a woman I was offended at all the media stereotyping of the jury as if we can’t understand the facts. Especially the comments about how Martin’s mothers testimony was supposed to be so powerful and play on our poor little hearts. She had no evidence to testify to though. She wasn’t a witness even second hand. I’m sorry her son is dead, but she had no true evidence to testify to. To me the forensic evidence was most compelling and I didn’t think the case hung on who was screaming. I doubt she had ever heard her child scream in the that kind of situation before anyway, so as to make an accurate comparison. I hope none of ever do.
Indeed. The media did indeed disparage the female jurors.
 
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