Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[SwizzleStick]

I would also think that Martin was bright enough that if he was defending himself from someone with a gun, his objective would have been to get control of the weapon, and failing that eliminate it from either’s control. So, in the straddling position he wouldn’t have been raining blows down with both hands as the witnesses testified. …

Please clarify your point. Are you saying the gun was not yet pulled or that the witness statement was false?

…Also, Zimmerman pulling the weapon prior to being in imminent danger of serious bodily harm would have been criminal and could get him charged with — assault, brandishing a weapon, intimidation, unlawful detention/kidnapping etc.

Yes, I know. I was trying to make that point to a poster, that if Zimmerman had his weapon drawn, he would have to be ready to fire it in self-defense. One does not draw a weapon unless they are prepared to fire it.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I think it had more to do with Martin beating Zimmerman’s face in than the hoodie.

LOL yes…

 

[fix]

I would like you all to read this statement if you haven’t already. Peace Carlan

The following statement was issued by Richard Cohen, President and CEO of the Southern Poverty Law Center, following the verdict in State of Florida v. George Zimmerman:

“They always get away.” These were the words George Zimmerman uttered as he followed and later shot Trayvon Martin – words that reflected his belief that Trayvon was one of “them,” the kind of person about to get away with something. How ironic these words sound now in light of the jury verdict acquitting Zimmerman.

Trayvon is dead, and Zimmerman is free. Who was the one who got away?

Can we respect the jury verdict and still conclude that Zimmerman got away with killing Trayvon? I think so, even if we buy Zimmerman’s story that Trayvon attacked him at some point. After all, who was responsible for initiating the tragic chain of events? Who was following whom? Who was carrying a gun? Who ignored the police urging that he stay in his car? Who thought that the other was one of “them,” someone about to get a away with something?

The jury has spoken, and we can respect its conclusion that the state did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. But we cannot fail to speak out about the tragedy that occurred in Sanford, Florida, on the night of February 26, 2012.

Was race at the heart of it? Ask yourself this question: If Zimmerman had seen a white youth walking in the rain that evening, would he have seen him as one of “them,” someone about to get away with something?

We’ll never really know, of course. But we can seriously doubt it without assuming that Zimmerman is a racist in the conventional sense of the word.

Racial bias reverberates in our society like the primordial Big Bang. Jesse Jackson made the point in a dramatic way when he acknowledged that he feels a sense of relief when the footsteps he hears behind him in the dead of night turn out to belong to white feet. Social scientists who study our hidden biases make the same point in a more sober way with statistics that demonstrate that we are more likely to associate black people with negative words and imagery than we are white people. It’s an association that devalues the humanity of black people, particularly black youth like Trayvon Martin.

George Zimmerman probably saw race the night of February 26, 2012, just like so many of us probably would have. Had he not, Trayvon probably would be alive today.

The jury has spoken. Now, we must speak out against the racial bias that still infects our society and distorts our perception of the world. And we must do something about it.

---

The Southern Poverty Law Center, based in Alabama with offices in Florida, Georgia, Louisiana and Mississippi, is a nonprofit civil rights organization dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry, and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society. For more information, see www.splcenter.org.

A leftist propaganda group.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Please clarify your point. Are you saying the gun was not yet pulled or that the witness statement was false?

My point was that the proposition was put forward that Zimmerman may have started this by pulling his gun first, which would have put Martin in imminent fear for his life.

I’m saying that the witness statement contradicts that proposition, and I found that witness to be credible. So I don’t believe Zimmerman initiated this by pulling his weapon.

The interchange on the phone at the same time doesn’t have Z or M referring to a gun either. I don’t think that interaction is consistent with Z having a gun out.

Yes, I know.

 

[LisaA]

I hadn’t heard that, but then I didn’t watch much of the trial. How did they (prosecutor, defense, medical examiner) reconcile that with the abrasions on his hands?

Realize that the blood flow was mostly on the BACK of ZImmerman’s head where the abrasions occurred. If you have ever seen anyone punched in the nose, blood does not flow out immediately, particularly if the person is on their back. What is the first thing you are told to do when you have a bloody nose? Lie down and tilt your head back. The photos of Zimmerman were taken when he was upright and after the fight occurred. There is often only a bruise or internal bruising when someone incurs a blow to the head. So the lack of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin isn’t particularly notable. He was on top, Zimmerman’s blood wouldn’t flow upward would it?

I think in all of the unknowns what is the most plausible explanation. We don’t know who threw the first punch but ask yourself why would Zimmerman have engaged in tracking down Martin who by Zimmerman’s and Jeantel’s admission had fled the scene? Why would he have engaged in a fight with Martin? He told the dispatcher he would wait until the police arrived. He had a history of reporting incidents, not of tracking down and attempting to apprehend suspects. He really didn’t have any information other than Martin was acting suspiciously. He seemed to be willing to wait for the police to come with the authority to perhaps stop Martin.

Again is it plausible that if his intent were to track down and apprehend Martin that he would have continued to engage in conversation with the dispatcher? That he would have made arrangements to meet with police? If that were his intent, why contact authorities at all? Or why not drop the call and pursue Martin?

Everything Zimmerman did points to the veracity of his account of the details. In fact the Prosecution witnesses including Jeantel’s report support Zimmerman’s accounting of the series of events including that he ran and that he lost visual contact with Zimmerman.

I think Martin was angry. I think he wanted to stop the “creepy a** crackah” from following him. I think were he to have been afraid for his safety he would have proceeded home directly ,as well as calling 911 or having Jeantel call on his behalf. I think it’s far more plausible he was going to show that “creepy a** crackah” not to mess with him, teach him a lesson And I think it never occurred to him that Zimmerman might be armed.

I don’t see any plausible reason Zimmerman would have tracked down Martin, cornered and confronted him, then engaged in a physical fight. There were plenty of other opportunities to pull his gun and shoot Martin were that the actual intent. I think Zimmerman only pulled the gun as a last resort.

Lisa

 

[fix]

Injuries don’t indicate who hit/grabbed who first. We simply have no evidence for that. Zimmerman’s injuries weren’t life threatening, and he didn’t do a whole lot of medical follow up. No way to tell if he was really being beaten to death, we can only conclude that he thought he was.

Once again, those are pretty specific allegations that we cannot possibly know. Witnesses saw Martin on top of Zimmerman but there’s no one who says they specifically saw him bashing Zimmerman’s head into the ground. However, my original point was simply that Zimmerman was, imho, foolish and unwise in some of his actions that night. That doesn’t make him guilty of murder.

By the time the injuries left him unable to move would have been too late. Again, whether GZ initial decisions were prudent or not they were no illegal and he did not deserve to be beaten to death.

I marvel that so many people fail to grasp the seriousness of head trauma. One punch can kill a man and certainly does not infrequently.

 

[LisaA]

A leftist propaganda group.

Yep. Like the ACLU, answers in search of a question, existence in the quest to maintain relevance. One might as well quote Media Matters. It’s about as reliable and unbiased as the SPLC.

Lisa

 

[SwizzleStick]

While he was on his back, his blood probably did go down his throat and remain internal. When he stood up, it probably flowed out of his nose. With that being said, I do not have an explanation for why there was not a trace of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s hand.

This thread is moving very quickly and I meant to ask this when I posted the above.

Any medical personnel out there who could share whether or not it is possible to have a broken nose that doesn’t bleed externally AT ALL if one is horizontal as soon as the fracture occurs, but begins to bleed externally when one becomes vertical again? Is it likely? Would most of the blood remain internal?

 

[PaulinVA]

So:

The police refused to charge Zimmerman.
The State’s Attorney did not charge Zimmerman.
No Grand Jury indicted Zimmerman
A special prosecutor was appointed and could not get a conviction - the jury agreed with the police and the State’s Attorney.

What more do people want?

If Martin had survived, he could have been charged with at least two felony assault counts together with a hate crime ("creepy-a** cracker comment).

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
Yes, I know. I was trying to make that point to a poster, that if Zimmerman had his weapon drawn, he would have to be ready to fire it in self-defense. One does not draw a weapon unless they are prepared to fire it.

I thought we were on the same page, was simply trying to reinforce for others that CCW holders do understand they are not the police. That there are very severe restrictions for when the weapon can be drawn and severe legal repercussions if one draws the weapon under any other circumstances.

 

[fix]

So:

The police refused to charge Zimmerman.
The State’s Attorney did not charge Zimmerman.
No Grand Jury indicted Zimmerman
A special prosecutor was appointed and could not get a conviction - the jury agreed with the police and the State’s Attorney.

What more do people want?

If Martin had survived, he could have been charged with at least two felony assault counts together with a hate crime ("creepy-a** cracker comment).

It is not about facts and evidence. It is about politics and emotion, as usual.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Worship God. Appreciate and value life. Guns are a tool which can be used to defend life, used by folks who appreciate God’s gift of life to themselves and others.

Valueing life and the means to preserve it is not worship.

But I think this is the problem for many. Their prejudices and preconceptions about guns and gun owners that they project onto others due their lack of understanding.

To them, Zimmerman is guilty just because he valued and appreciated God’s gift of life enough to avail himself of the opportunity to legally have the means to defend it.

The term for that is hoplophobia

Love God. Value all the gifts he has blessed you with.

Again, Florida state law makes it too easy to be a vigilante. People like GZ take the law into their own hands, and then shoot and kill an innocent victim who was likely defending himself against the aggressiveness of the vigilante.

Worship God, not guns!

 

[SwizzleStick]

It could be that because people don’t bleed instantaneously. Think about when you cut yourself with a knife. Very rarely do I end up with blood on the knife.

That’s true.

 

[fix]

Realize that the blood flow was mostly on the BACK of ZImmerman’s head where the abrasions occurred. If you have ever seen anyone punched in the nose, blood does not flow out immediately, particularly if the person is on their back. What is the first thing you are told to do when you have a bloody nose? Lie down and tilt your head back. The photos of Zimmerman were taken when he was upright and after the fight occurred. There is often only a bruise or internal bruising when someone incurs a blow to the head. So the lack of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin isn’t particularly notable. He was on top, Zimmerman’s blood wouldn’t flow upward would it?

I think in all of the unknowns what is the most plausible explanation. We don’t know who threw the first punch but ask yourself why would Zimmerman have engaged in tracking down Martin who by Zimmerman’s and Jeantel’s admission had fled the scene? Why would he have engaged in a fight with Martin? He told the dispatcher he would wait until the police arrived. He had a history of reporting incidents, not of tracking down and attempting to apprehend suspects. He really didn’t have any information other than Martin was acting suspiciously. He seemed to be willing to wait for the police to come with the authority to perhaps stop Martin.

Again is it plausible that if his intent were to track down and apprehend Martin that he would have continued to engage in conversation with the dispatcher? That he would have made arrangements to meet with police? If that were his intent, why contact authorities at all? Or why not drop the call and pursue Martin?

Everything Zimmerman did points to the veracity of his account of the details. In fact the Prosecution witnesses including Jeantel’s report support Zimmerman’s accounting of the series of events including that he ran and that he lost visual contact with Zimmerman.

I think Martin was angry. I think he wanted to stop the “creepy a** crackah” from following him. I think were he to have been afraid for his safety he would have proceeded home directly ,as well as calling 911 or having Jeantel call on his behalf. I think it’s far more plausible he was going to show that “creepy a** crackah” not to mess with him, teach him a lesson And I think it never occurred to him that Zimmerman might be armed.

I don’t see any plausible reason Zimmerman would have tracked down Martin, cornered and confronted him, then engaged in a physical fight. There were plenty of other opportunities to pull his gun and shoot Martin were that the actual intent. I think Zimmerman only pulled the gun as a last resort.

Lisa

I think you are 100% right.

 

[fix]

Again, Florida state law makes it too easy to be a vigilante. People like GZ take the law into their own hands, and then shoot and kill an innocent victim who was likely defending himself against the aggressiveness of the vigilante.

Worship God, not guns!

All nonsense. He did not take the law into his own hands. He called the police. He monitored the suspect as best he thought. He was attacked and savagely beaten. He defended himself. If TM was so worried he could have ran home or sought help rather than jumping him and beating his head.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I thought we were on the same page, was simply trying to reinforce for others that CCW holders do understand they are not the police. That there are very severe restrictions for when the weapon can be drawn and severe legal repercussions if one draws the weapon under any other circumstances.

Yes, I agree, I think we are on the same page.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Realize that the blood flow was mostly on the BACK of ZImmerman’s head where the abrasions occurred. If you have ever seen anyone punched in the nose, blood does not flow out immediately, particularly if the person is on their back. What is the first thing you are told to do when you have a bloody nose? Lie down and tilt your head back. The photos of Zimmerman were taken when he was upright and after the fight occurred. There is often only a bruise or internal bruising when someone incurs a blow to the head. So the lack of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin isn’t particularly notable. He was on top, Zimmerman’s blood wouldn’t flow upward would it?

I think in all of the unknowns what is the most plausible explanation. We don’t know who threw the first punch but ask yourself why would Zimmerman have engaged in tracking down Martin who by Zimmerman’s and Jeantel’s admission had fled the scene? Why would he have engaged in a fight with Martin? He told the dispatcher he would wait until the police arrived. He had a history of reporting incidents, not of tracking down and attempting to apprehend suspects. He really didn’t have any information other than Martin was acting suspiciously. He seemed to be willing to wait for the police to come with the authority to perhaps stop Martin.

Again is it plausible that if his intent were to track down and apprehend Martin that he would have continued to engage in conversation with the dispatcher? That he would have made arrangements to meet with police? If that were his intent, why contact authorities at all? Or why not drop the call and pursue Martin?

Everything Zimmerman did points to the veracity of his account of the details. In fact the Prosecution witnesses including Jeantel’s report support Zimmerman’s accounting of the series of events including that he ran and that he lost visual contact with Zimmerman.

I think Martin was angry. I think he wanted to stop the “creepy a** crackah” from following him. I think were he to have been afraid for his safety he would have proceeded home directly ,as well as calling 911 or having Jeantel call on his behalf. I think it’s far more plausible he was going to show that “creepy a** crackah” not to mess with him, teach him a lesson And I think it never occurred to him that Zimmerman might be armed.

I don’t see any plausible reason Zimmerman would have tracked down Martin, cornered and confronted him, then engaged in a physical fight. There were plenty of other opportunities to pull his gun and shoot Martin were that the actual intent. I think Zimmerman only pulled the gun as a last resort.

Lisa

Very good summation, in my opinion. Thank you.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Again, Florida state law makes it too easy to be a vigilante. People like GZ take the law into their own hands, and then shoot and kill an innocent victim who was likely defending himself against the aggressiveness of the vigilante.

Worship God, not guns!

And Chicago’s gun laws make it easy to be a victim, a deceased victim.

Your characterization of the event and gun owners is unwarranted and unsubstantiated by either this specific incident or Floridas experience with CCW holders.

CCW holders are far less likely to be involved in crime than the average citizen. In fact, they are arrested for criminal violations at a lower rate then the members of MAIG (Mayors Against Illegal Guns-- Bloombergs group).

 

[MaryT777]

By the time the injuries left him unable to move would have been too late. Again, whether GZ initial decisions were prudent or not they were no illegal and he did not deserve to be beaten to death.

I marvel that so many people fail to grasp the seriousness of head trauma. One punch can kill a man and certainly does not infrequently.

Yes and on shot can kill a man as well.

 

[fix]

Yes and on shot can kill a man as well.

True and necessary to defend your life when a man is trying to beat you to death.