Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[Inego_de_Loyola]

What kind of justice system is it when someone keeps getting tried until the result appeases a lynch mob?

The same type used by the KKK to murder the family of my V Grandfather Elias’s family for being Irish and Catholic.

(Also we’re 1/3 of the way into our next thousand. I’ve never seen a thread permitted to continue this long. )

 

[maryjk]

But people have brought up Trayvon’s past.

Also, if a Concealed Carry permit is given to people based on a background check which is a part of this story, I think it is very much at the heart of the matter that George Zimmerman got a gun despite having some very serious charges levelled against him in the past. It could have had a big effect on this situation. Those charges reflect very negatively on him as a human being.

But maybe you are right, it should not be brought up, we just might not have someone dead!

Having charges brought against someone is VERY different than being convicted of a crime. Unless Zimmerman was convicted of a crime, it shouldn’t be on his record.

Unless of course, you don’t agree with “innocent until proven guilty.”

 

[BroomWagon]

Sorry, I don’t know the details of Zimmerman’s prior arrests. But I think this is the leniency thing being referred to,

The issue with Travyon is that the school he attended was trying to drive down the delinquency and arrest rates statistics for students. The chiefs methodology was to stop turning over students suspected of criminal offenses to the police, and have the school administer disciplinary measures instead. Trayvon was caught on surveillance drawing graffiti, when they searched his bag for the marker, they found stolen property from a burglary which had occurred about a half mile from the school and a ‘burglary tool’ (a screwdriver). He stated a friend had given him the property.

He also got caught with marijuana which was why he was suspended and sent to live with his Dad.

You’re right, if one has ever been to a domestic shelter or seen a woman battered, you might see a woman with a black eye or barely able to walk. And domestic abuse goes both ways, but hey, This couldn’t have an effect on the situation on how a grown man might see a teenage boy could it!

I take it that we have no guideline that precludes “only evidence” that was in the trial be discussed.

Charges of pushing a police officer or 2 charges of domestic violence is very serious.

I think this is such negative conduct, it falls outside of all of the support Zimmerman has received.

I’ll say again, I’m not sure of someone who was able to avoid charges of domestic violence 2 times and shoving a police officer should have a gun. That someone got killed is rather offensive to hear “shouldn’t count”.

 

[styrgwillidar]

But people have brought up Trayvon’s past.

Also, if a Concealed Carry permit is given to people based on a background check which is a part of this story, I think it is very much at the heart of the matter that George Zimmerman got a gun despite having some very serious charges levelled against him in the past. It could have had a big effect on this situation. Those charges reflect very negatively on him as a human being.

But maybe you are right, it should not be brought up, we just might not have someone dead!

You misunderstand what I said. I think examining the how/why Zimmerman received a CCW is worthwhile. As you seem to admit, there were charges but were there convictions? How long ago? What were the specifics of the incident? Were the laws of Florida violated by the permit issuance?

I would balance those charges against his more recent conduct, but not saying it isn’t worth considering.

But, then we have Trayvon with current drug use, a history of fighting, a connection to burglaries, his boasts and texts on social media of his fighting prowess, the depiction of guns…

If we look at past records to try and gauge who was likely to throw the first blow, well lay out both records. Had Zimmerman learned from his past? If they were charges and not convictions, why were they dropped?

Ever been exposed to divorces? I’ve seen a lot of false allegations thrown around, charges filed and dropped on that basis alone.

Was Trayvon just all talk? Does someone who really fight strangers go around boasting and bragging. Show for his friends, but more fantasy than reality. I don’t know. Had he learned his lesson from his suspension? Was he using the restart at his Dad’s to change his direction- I think that’s what his parents hoped.

 

[LisaA]

But people have brought up Trayvon’s past.

Also, if a Concealed Carry permit is given to people based on a background check which is a part of this story, I think it is very much at the heart of the matter that George Zimmerman got a gun despite having some very serious charges levelled against him in the past. It could have had a big effect on this situation. Those charges reflect very negatively on him as a human being.

But maybe you are right, it should not be brought up, we just might not have someone dead!

Again are you aware of what one must do to get a Concealed Carry? Whatever scuffles or domestic disputes GZ had been through, it was not considered significant enough to prevent his getting the CCW. If the state of Florida doesn’t think these charges were significant, why should you? Do you infer he somehow thwarted the law? Or had his father push it?

Here are the requirements and they are VERY strict:

licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/cw_license_eligibility_requirements_web.pdf

The fact that allegations were made against him is not a determining factor. The charges were dropped.

I don’t think there is anything in GZ’s past that would indicate a predisposition toward violence nor instability.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

Having charges brought against someone is VERY different than being convicted of a crime. Unless Zimmerman was convicted of a crime, it shouldn’t be on his record.

Unless of course, you don’t agree with “innocent until proven guilty.”

And maybe if he had been convicted of domestic violence, we would not have a dead person, he was also sent to alcohol treatment to have charges of shoving an officer reduced and eventually dismissed.

It’s no wonder that one would not want these charges as part of the conversation but here, we aren’t in the Court Room.

The histories of both persons may have been inadmissible in a Court of Law, maybe that is proper for justice but this is not a Court Room.

I think there is a pertinent issue as to one who had 2 times charges of domestic abuse and a charge of shoving a police officer dismissed through some legal dancing should have a firearm and in this case, if not, it might have saved someone’s life.

Conduct is a part of this case.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Or maybe tm is/was a thug ? ( Since assuming seems to be ok ).

As long as you’re open minded enough to take both perspectives.

 

[Dawnia]

That is for a jury to decide. Picture yourself as a woman who is attacked and you get the advantage. The person is still struggling-- what are their intentions if you let them up? You have the advantage now, you can’t read the other persons mind, what risk are you willing to take in giving up that advantage? Were you lucky in getting the advantage, and don’t think you could regain it? Are their screams just a ploy? How fast will others get on the scene? Perhaps you continue until there are third party witnesses?

Personally maybe I’d yell ‘freeze now and it stops’. They freeze, we have a discussion on what’s going on. But I’m not a fighter, my reactions are pretty slow in that area, giving up the advantage would be a huge risk for me with an opponent of comparable size or any skill.

Would a reasonable person in the same circmustances believe there was an imminent threat of serious bodily harm to themselves? again, that will be the juries call and what you’d have to live with.

I give. I can see your point. However, I don’t think it applies in this case. TM had the advantage over GZ. Claiming you are in fear of your life when the only person with injuries is the other person seems rather fishy to say the least.

 

[LisaA]

You misunderstand what I said. I think examining the how/why Zimmerman received a CCW is worthwhile. As you seem to admit, there were charges but were there convictions? How long ago? What were the specifics of the incident? Were the laws of Florida violated by the permit issuance?

I would balance those charges against his more recent conduct, but not saying it isn’t worth considering.

But, then we have Trayvon with current drug use, a history of fighting, a connection to burglaries, his boasts and texts on social media of his fighting prowess, the depiction of guns…

If we look at past records to try and gauge who was likely to throw the first blow, well lay out both records. Had Zimmerman learned from his past? If they were charges and not convictions, why were they dropped?

Ever been exposed to divorces? I’ve seen a lot of false allegations thrown around, charges filed and dropped on that basis alone.

Was Trayvon just all talk? Does someone who really fight strangers go around boasting and bragging. Show for his friends, but more fantasy than reality. I don’t know. Had he learned his lesson from his suspension? Was he using the restart at his Dad’s to change his direction- I think that’s what his parents hoped.

Exactly my point in deciding that the jury reached the correct conclusion. It doesn’t mean Martin is any less dead but it does support that sadly he seems to have contributed to his own death.

I think the saddest thing about this case is “meeting” two young people, born in a land of bounty, opportunities, and support who seemed to be totally aimless, lacking in purpose, lacking in direction (talking about Jeantel also here). Look at Martin and Jeantel and extrapolate this to literally hundreds of thousands of such young people. It’s kind of depressing to me.

Broken families, drugs, lack of education and this is the result.

Lisa

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

And maybe if he had been convicted of domestic violence, we would not have a dead person…]

We don’t know that he committed any domestic violence to be convicted of.

 

[BroomWagon]

Again are you aware of what one must do to get a Concealed Carry? Whatever scuffles or domestic disputes GZ had been through, it was not considered significant enough to prevent his getting the CCW. If the state of Florida doesn’t think these charges were significant, why should you? Do you infer he somehow thwarted the law? Or had his father push it?

Here are the requirements and they are VERY strict:

licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/cw_license_eligibility_requirements_web.pdf

The fact that allegations were made against him is not a determining factor. The charges were dropped.

I don’t think there is anything in GZ’s past that would indicate a predisposition toward violence nor instability.

Lisa

I think the charges are significant, what if he had been convicted of one of these charges, he doesn’t receive his conceal and carry permit, Trayvon Martin is not dead. Sorry, people see this as “irrelevant” but I’ll go one better.

He had the charge of shoving a police officer reduced and then dismissed because he agreed to get alcohol treatment. That is a fact, so no matter what you say about a right to have a gun because these charges did not go on the record, if one is more concerned with possibly saving an individual’s life rather than building their case about the right to own a gun, we may not be dealing with this situation.

Hence, why can we hear on the news, an offender was let out of prison and ended up killing someone.

Do we just say, oh well, he did his time?? No, usually you hear “they should not have let him out of prison”.

I would surmise Zimmerman may have slipped through the system and this is what we get. It’s no different than the leniency shown to a drunk driver who drives again and hurts someone.

I don’t see why in discussing the Verdict, all of a sudden, this matter should not be taken into consideration.

 

[Lormar]

What kind of justice system is it when someone keeps getting tried until the result appeases a lynch mob?

No justice system at all.

 

[SamH]

And maybe if he had been convicted of domestic violence, we would not have a dead person, he was also sent to alcohol treatment to have charges of shoving an officer reduced and eventually dismissed.

It’s no wonder that one would not want these charges as part of the conversation but here, we aren’t in the Court Room.

The histories of both persons may have been inadmissible in a Court of Law, maybe that is proper for justice but this is not a Court Room.

I think there is a pertinent issue as to one who had 2 times charges of domestic abuse and a charge of shoving a police officer dismissed through some legal dancing should have a firearm and in this case, if not, it might have saved someone’s life.

Conduct is a part of this case.

Maybe if Travon had gone to jail instead of merely being suspended from school for assaulting a bus driver.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I think the charges are significant, what if he had been convicted of one of these charges, he doesn’t receive his conceal and carry permit, Trayvon Martin is not dead. Sorry, people see this as “irrelevant” but I’ll go one better.

So he is assumed guilty now, because we are assuming he was guilty then?

He had the charge of shoving a police officer reduced and then dismissed because he agreed to get alcohol treatment. That is a fact, so no matter what you say about a right to have a gun because these charges did not go on the record, if one is more concerned with possibly saving an individual’s life rather than building their case about the right to own a gun, we may not be dealing with this situation.

The fact that it was dismissed in exchange for alcohol treatment suggest that he was drunk when it happened. Is there any reason to suspect alcohol was a factor in the Treyvon Martin affair?

 

[lizmac2013]

No the verdict was not fair!!

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

No the verdict was not fair!!

Hello and welcome.
Would you care to elaborate?

 

[LisaA]

I think the charges are significant, what if he had been convicted of one of these charges, he doesn’t receive his conceal and carry permit, Trayvon Martin is not dead. Sorry, people see this as “irrelevant” but I’ll go one better.

He had the charge of shoving a police officer reduced and then dismissed because he agreed to get alcohol treatment. That is a fact, so no matter what you say about a right to have a gun because these charges did not go on the record, if one is more concerned with possibly saving an individual’s life rather than building their case about the right to own a gun, we may not be dealing with this situation.

Hence, why can we hear on the news, an offender was let out of prison and ended up killing someone.

Do we just say, oh well, he did his time?? No, usually you hear “they should not have let him out of prison”.

I would surmise Zimmerman may have slipped through the system and this is what we get. It’s no different than the leniency shown to a drunk driver who drives again and hurts someone.

I don’t see why in discussing the Verdict, all of a sudden, this matter should not be taken into consideration.

Did you bother to read the CCW regulations or are you just going to stick with your story? You “surmise” Zimmerman slipped through the system…based on WHAT exactly?

Look at the regulations. Domestic abuse is in there, so are violent MISDEMEANORS…not even a felony charge. Zimmerman clearly wanted to be a cop and would have been accepted except for credit issues. You can see the screening for law enforcement is also very strict and the last thing any police department wants is some jerk with a hair trigger temper that will get them sued.

Zimmerman’s demeanor after the incident and during the initial investigation as well as during the subsequent hearings and trials were of a man very much in control of his emotions.

Honestly though I am going to quit beating this dead horse. The facts do not matter apparently.

Lisa

 

[SamH]

I thought I heard that Obama was pursuing federal charges. Is that no longer the case?

The FBI has already conducted their investigation and found nothing. Has a single person ever been charged with violating another person’s civil rights? Usually it’s members of a group (or the entire group) that conspire to deny people their civil rights (the LA Police force, the KKK, the New Black Panthers).

Is there a history of charging a single individual with attempting to deny another individual their civil rights? Do those laws work that way?

 

[Dawnia]

Zimmerman had been charged with domestic violence and shoving a police officer. These are pretty serious offenses. There are 1300 plus posts here, there might be 5 - 10 that mention Zimmerman’s prior brushes with the law.

Didn’t Zimmerman have an alcohol problem at the time of those prior offenses, which is no longer an issue? These also happened 6-7 years before the incident with no problems since then. It appears he had a problem and cleaned up his act. Isn’t that a good thing? Or do these two offenses define him for life?

 

[oldcelt]

The FBI has already conducted their investigation and found nothing. Has a single person ever been charged with violating another person’s civil rights? Usually it’s members of a group (or the entire group) that conspire to deny people their civil rights (the LA Police force, the KKK, the New Black Panthers).

Is there a history of charging a single individual with attempting to deny another individual their civil rights? Do those laws work that way?

Any Civil Rights charges in this case would be a real stretch and inappropriate IMHO. As you said, the FBI has already looked and, if I’m correct, found no evidence that GZ was a racist or a member of a bigger organization that is.
Zimmerman will have plenty of other problems in the aftermath of this case, but I really don’t think that the DOJ should be among them.

I personally don’t like the actions of GZ…he strikes me as a wannabe and several other things that I do not like. However, none of those things are criminal.