Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[NewEnglandPriest]

The operative word is “WAS” Z was asked if he had been following Martin. He was told “we don’t need you to do that…”

No past tense. The transcript is clear:

Dispacter: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: yeah.

You claimed Zimmerman was in his car making the call, Zimmerman is clear that he is following Martin at the time of his call.

 

[LisaA]

No past tense. The transcript is clear:

He wasn’t following him while he was on the phone to the dispatcher.
Lisa

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

He wasn’t following him while he was on the phone to the dispatcher.
Lisa

Then why did he say he was?

 

[LisaA]

Then why did he say he was?

Because he had been following him prior to the call, because he was still following his movement with visual contact. The point was that Martin ran away, broke off sight contact ( this verified by both Jeantel’s call) with Zimmerman. There is no evidence that Zimmerman continued to “follow” him as he had lost sight of Martin and was engaged in coversation with the dispatcher. In fact it appears that the discussion with the dispatcher after Martin disappeared from sight was longer than that prior to. Thus the comment that “these punks always get away…”

I imagine Zimmerman wanted to keep sight of Martin but he had made specific arrangements where to meet with the police the dispatcher had sent. He did not argue with the dispatcher about following Martin. He agreed to wait for the police to call him when they got into the general area. Thus he wanted to verify the address when he was again confronted by Martin.

The idea that Zimmerman was tearing after Martin while simulaneously talking on the phone with the dispatcher is ridiculous.

Lisa

 

[MaryT777]

He wasn’t following him while he was on the phone to the dispatcher.
Lisa

He said he was following him to the dispatcher when asked actually.

You can hear what sounds like him opening up his car door and getting out to do so which is why the dispatcher asked.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Because he had been following him prior to the call, because he was still following his movement with visual contact. The point was that Martin ran away, broke off sight contact ( this verified by both Jeantel’s call) with Zimmerman. There is no evidence that Zimmerman continued to “follow” him as he had lost sight of Martin and was engaged in coversation with the dispatcher. In fact it appears that the discussion with the dispatcher after Martin disappeared from sight was longer than that prior to. Thus the comment that “these punks always get away…”

That doesn’t follow what Zimmerman said to the dispatcher. The dispatcher asked point blank if he was following him, Zimmerman said “yeah.” No past tense. There’s no other way to read his response to the question. Martin took off running while Zimmerman was on the phone, Zimmerman said he was following him, dispatcher told him not to and he said ok. That’s all we know. We have no idea who initiated the confrontation.

I imagine Zimmerman wanted to keep sight of Martin but he had made specific arrangements where to meet with the police the dispatcher had sent.

No he didn’t. He asked for the police to call him when they arrived and he’d tell them where he was.

 

[LisaA]

That doesn’t follow what Zimmerman said to the dispatcher. The dispatcher asked point blank if he was following him, Zimmerman said “yeah.” No past tense. There’s no other way to read his response to the question. Martin took off running while Zimmerman was on the phone, Zimmerman said he was following him, dispatcher told him not to and he said ok. That’s all we know. We have no idea who initiated the confrontation.

No he didn’t. He asked for the police to call him when they arrived and he’d tell them where he was.

So you believe Zimmerman was running after Martin while simulataneously talking on the phone with the dispatcher? Is there ANY evidence of that? Did you hear the call? He was measured and calm, although frustrated. He was not huffing and puffing as if he were running after a fleeing teenager.

Again, I grant he had been observing him and according to the testimony of Jeantel, had been “following him in his car…” But he was no longer following him during or after the phone call. If he got out of the car during the call, it sounds as if he was trying to maintain visual contact.

And yes, that’s exactly what I said, that he asked the dispatcher to give the police his number and call him to connect. Finding someone in their vehicle on a rainy dark night isn’t that easy. And your point is what? That he planned to tell the police…“well I’m running past 111 and onto 113 XYZ Street?”

What makes you think he continued to follow Martin? I’ve seen no evidence, no testimony, and no recording that indicates he continued to follow or observe him. He and Jeantel said they broke off contact.

Lisa

 

[sabrefan]

When GZ was following Trayvon… GZ was not breaking the law.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

So you believe Zimmerman was running after Martin while simulataneously talking on the phone with the dispatcher? Is there ANY evidence of that? Did you hear the call? He was measured and calm, although frustrated. He was not huffing and puffing as if he were running after a fleeing teenager.

Yes, you can read the clear words of the transcript or you can hear his car door open and then the sound of wind on the call itself.

Again, I grant he had been observing him and according to the testimony of Jeantel, had been “following him in his car…” But he was no longer following him during or after the phone call. If he got out of the car during the call, it sounds as if he was trying to maintain visual contact.

During the phone call Zimmerman says Martin took off running, you can hear Zimmerman get out of the car to follow him and the dispatcher tells him not to.

The original police report of that night has Zimmerman getting out of his car to follow Martin. It’s not a point in dispute.

And yes, that’s exactly what I said, that he asked the dispatcher to give the police his number and call him to connect. Finding someone in their vehicle on a rainy dark night isn’t that easy. And your point is what? That he planned to tell the police…“well I’m running past 111 and onto 113 XYZ Street?”

You said he had made specific arrangements where to meet the police. I pointed out that wasn’t true.

What makes you think he continued to follow Martin? I’ve seen no evidence, no testimony, and no recording that indicates he continued to follow or observe him. He and Jeantel said they broke off contact.

My point is that we have no evidence either way.

Lisa

 

[Robert_Sock]

So you believe Zimmerman was running after Martin while simulataneously talking on the phone with the dispatcher? Is there ANY evidence of that? Did you hear the call? He was measured and calm, although frustrated. He was not huffing and puffing as if he were running after a fleeing teenager.

Again, I grant he had been observing him and according to the testimony of Jeantel, had been “following him in his car…” But he was no longer following him during or after the phone call. If he got out of the car during the call, it sounds as if he was trying to maintain visual contact.

And yes, that’s exactly what I said, that he asked the dispatcher to give the police his number and call him to connect. Finding someone in their vehicle on a rainy dark night isn’t that easy. And your point is what? That he planned to tell the police…“well I’m running past 111 and onto 113 XYZ Street?”

What makes you think he continued to follow Martin? I’ve seen no evidence, no testimony, and no recording that indicates he continued to follow or observe him. He and Jeantel said they broke off contact.

Lisa

I have to wonder how far was TM’s body from GZ’s truck? This should point to how much GZ was following TM after being told not to by the dispatcher.

 

[livingwordunity]

When GZ was following Trayvon… GZ was not breaking the law.

And a big point that people keep missing is if GZ premeditated killing TM GZ would have shot at him from a distance. It would not have had to be the one shot fired at point-blank range with TM on top of GZ beating him up MMA style.

 

[LisaA]

Here is what the call indicated before Z lost sight of Martin:

Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running? Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards? Zimmerman: The back entrance…****** [unintelligible] Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that. Zimmerman: Ok **

This is after he agrees not to follow Martin (which comports with Jeantel’s testimony that Martin initially ran away from Zimmerman).

D**ispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? Zimmerman: George…He ran. Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name? Zimmerman: Zimmerman Dispatcher: And George what’s the phone number you’re calling from?

Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones] Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of? Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address. Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area? Zimmerman: Yeah, I…[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number? Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh **** I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is. Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine. Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay? Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem. Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it? Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones] Zimmerman: Yeah you got it. Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.**

This is a relatively lengthy exchange, Zimmerman’s voice is measured and he does not sound as if he’s exerting himself, running or searching for Martin. If he had been following Martin during the initial part of the all (although he was apparently in his truck) clearly he was not following him once he ran “toward the back entrance…” He says “I dont know where this kid is…”

Lisa

 

[sabrefan]

This was a hate crime. Zimmerman cannot take a life just because he got scared…a little coward with a gun. Hope the Feds prosecute him. Do a crime, you should do time. This was not self defense.

So what evidence did you hear/see that the jury didn’t have?
I can guarantee you one thing… If I punched you in the nose and then sat on you and slammed your head on the concrete ground… and you had the opportunity to shoot me to save your life… you would.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Here is what the call indicated before Z lost sight of Martin:

Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running? Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards? Zimmerman: The back entrance…****** [unintelligible] Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that. Zimmerman: Ok **

This is after he agrees not to follow Martin (which comports with Jeantel’s testimony that Martin initially ran away from Zimmerman).

How is that after he agrees not follow Martin when that’s exactly what he’s doing during the conversation? You can hear the car door open and the sound of the wind on the audio.

This is a relatively lengthy exchange, Zimmerman’s voice is measured and he does not sound as if he’s exerting himself, running or searching for Martin. If he had been following Martin during the initial part of the all (although he was apparently in his truck) clearly he was not following him once he ran “toward the back entrance…” He says “I dont know where this kid is…”

You don’t need to know exactly where someone is to follow after them. You can follow their general direction. And if Zimmerman is simply a car on the side of the road, its highly unlikely that Martin would have eyeballed it and taken off running.

 

[LisaA]

How is that after he agrees not follow Martin when that’s exactly what he’s doing during the conversation? You can hear the car door open and the sound of the wind on the audio.

You don’t need to know exactly where someone is to follow after them. You can follow their general direction. And if Zimmerman is simply a car on the side of the road, its highly unlikely that Martin would have eyeballed it and taken off running.

He gets out of the car and looks around. He says that Martin had disappeared. Yes he could indicate the general direction Martin had gone but that isn’t the same as following him.

You keep mixing up the chain of events. I grant Zimmerman had observed Martin, apparently had been following him in his car.

HAD BEEN, WAS. Past tense.

The rest of the story is that they broke visual contact during the phone call. Zimmerman didnt’ hang up and run after Martin. He continued to talk at some length about addresses and phone numbers and making arrangements to meet the police. He did not run after Martin, he did not chase him, follow him or instigate a confrontation.

The series of events as detailed by multiple witnesses was that Zimmerman lost sight of Martin. Martin later surprised him and confronted Zimmerman. Zimmerman states Martin hit him, knocked him down, continued to punch him and slam his head against the pavement. The eyewitness testimony and Zimmerman’s appearance along with his statements all support that Martin was the aggressor. If Zimmerman pulled his gun and told Martin to stop, he wouldn’t have been all beaten up would he?

Where do you think Zimmerman went wrong? In initially observing Martin and reporting him? Or do you not believe all of the testimony that indicates Martin confronted and attacked Zimmerman?

I just don’t get your point other than you do not agree with the verdict. Why not?
Lisa

 

[Dawnia]

I have to wonder how far was TM’s body from GZ’s truck? This should point to how much GZ was following TM after being told not to by the dispatcher.

About 160 feet from truck to TM.

EDIT: Part of that distance (maybe 10-20 feet) was after the initial confrontation where the sidewalk intersects.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The vigilante attitude of Americans is disgusting! We need more LOVE, compassion and understanding, and not more guns! As Catholics, I urge you to LOVE!

 

[KrazyKat]

So what evidence did you hear/see that the jury didn’t have?
I can guarantee you one thing… If I punched you in the nose and then sat on you and slammed your head on the concrete ground… and you had the opportunity to shoot me to save your life… you would.

I saw and heard without prejudice. You can not guarantee anything about me and I find your statement personalized and inappropriate .

 

[Dawnia]

I’m pretty good. But I don’t think I could pull that off. How the heck would you aim?

Especially since the person on top of you isn’t likely to just stay put while you try to hit their foot.

 

[didymus]

Cracker does not have the history or the meaning that the n word does. I chuckle if someone calls me cracker because it means nothing to me.

You’re right, I’ve always taken it as mildly pejorative like “redneck”.
From the fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia:

Cracker, sometimes white cracker or cracka, is an expression for white people,[1] especially poor rural whites in the Southern United States. In reference to a native of Florida or Georgia, however, it is sometimes used in a neutral or positive context and is sometimes used self-descriptively with pride.[2]

Etymology

There are multiple explanations of the etymology of “cracker”, most dating its origin to the 18th century or earlier.
One theory holds that slave foremen in the antebellum South used bullwhips to discipline African slaves, with such use of the whip being described as “cracking the whip”. The white foremen who cracked these whips thus became known as “crackers”.[3][4][5][6]

They are called by the town’s-people, “Crackers,” from the frequency with which they crack their large whips, as if they derived a peculiar pleasure from the sound"[7]

%between%

Another whip-derived theory is based on Florida’s “cracker cowboys” of the 19th and early 20th centuries; distinct from the Spanish vaquero and the Western cowboy. Cracker cowboys did not use lassos to herd or capture cattle. Their primary tools were cow whips and dogs.[8]citation needed]
An alternative theory holds that the term comes from the common diet of poor whites. The 1911 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica supposes that the term derives from the cracked (kernels of) corn which formed the staple food of this class of people.[9]