Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[Miss_Felicity]

Indeed. Miss Felicity don’t jump in late in a thread, ignore what has been discussed at great length and posit a completely fabricated scenario if you want to be taken seriously.

Lisa

Nobody has to take me seriously, its a free country. I feel the way I feel. I AM shocked that there are so many who feel that this is okay and feel that it is okay that this young man was killed. MY brain finds it difficult to process but clearly I am the minority (tongue firmly in cheek) so I will exit stage left on this discussion since dissenting opinions are not respected or appreciated. I will NEVER think its okay to shot down a child in cold blood if you disagree or can justify that, its between you and the God you serve clearly different from the God I pray to.

 

[LisaA]

I think the above comments are uncalled for. As someone who lives in a fairly dangerous neighborhood that has a “watch” I do have my own opinions on Zimmerman’s actions. That doesn’t make me an “armchair leftest” nor does it mean that I somehow lack understanding (anymore so than anyone else on this board).

We don’t know what began the altercation. My first month in the parish I’m currently in, 4 people were murdered in my neighborhood. Illegal guns abound. If I saw a suspicious person I would immediately contact the police, but would never follow them for any length of time nor get out of my car at any point. That’s essentially the advice of the police.

With all due respect, continuing to argue and split hairs on what happened is pointless. I believe the scenario testified to by Zimmerman and supported by certain forensic evidence. Obviously you don’t.

However as a Priest in a dangerous area, tell me what you think is the real problem, a neighborhood watch or young people who grow up without fathers or direction, who live in a swamp of violent music, video games and the uplifting of a “gangsta” culture?

The George Zimmermans of the world are NOT the cause of the gun violence in yours or other neighborhoods. I think you are blaming the wrong person/source of this and many other similar incidences.

If HALF of the concern about Zimmerman’s actions were focused on the mess in our inner cities, I would find yours and others’ objection to the results in this case more persuasive. It seems to me that those who are upset about the verdict are really either certain it was all about race or that it was all about guns.

The facts, the testimony, and the verdict all support Zimmerman. Racism claims and anti-gun rhetoric seems to be the only “evidence” to the contrary.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Nobody has to take me seriously, its a free country. I feel the way I feel. I AM shocked that there are so many who feel that this is okay and feel that it is okay that this young man was killed. MY brain finds it difficult to process but clearly I am the minority (tongue firmly in cheek) so I will exit stage left on this discussion since dissenting opinions are not respected or appreciated. I will NEVER think its okay to shot down a child in cold blood if you disagree or can justify that, its between you and the God you serve clearly different from the God I pray to.

Nothing you claimed is true. No one has said it’s “ok to shoot a child in cold blood.” You are setting up strawmen that are easy to knock down and then exit in high dudgeon because we didn’t fall for this tactic. It doesn’t work. Try facts and logic.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Yes, but generally, when speaking publically to other adults, one doesn’t just make out opinions that aren’t rooted in some sort of reality. It is simple courtesy. By your definition, every minority killing in Chicago this weekend was a hate crime, because a black person died.

Posters can say anything they want, within the rules of the forums. A poster could say “I believe Joe Biden is really a post-operative transsexual,” despite there being zero evidence of this being true.

A poster can claim nasty, untrue things about people all day, but lacking any evidence, you simply become guilty of the sin of calumny yourself, and it renders other opinions by the poster as less worthy of serious consideration.

Honestly, this is the sort of thing people like Harry Reid are fond of. Throw out an accusation, and even if you never revisit it, it will linger in people’s minds and tarnish the person about whom it was said. That is unfair and wrong.

Thank you, wonderful analysis.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Nobody has to take me seriously, its a free country. I feel the way I feel. I AM shocked that there are so many who feel that this is okay and feel that it is okay that this young man was killed. MY brain finds it difficult to process but clearly I am the minority (tongue firmly in cheek) so I will exit stage left on this discussion since dissenting opinions are not respected or appreciated. I will NEVER think its okay to shot down a child in cold blood if you disagree or can justify that, its between you and the God you serve clearly different from the God I pray to.

And now you are making up facts again. Where did anyone say it is okay a person was killed? You are talking to people who by and large value the right to life above all else, including the unborn.

Believing in the right to self-defense does not imply you wanted to see the other person killed. If I shoot someone breaking into my house to protect my family, their death is an unfortunate byproduct of self-defense. The goal was protecting my family, not their death.

No one is asking you to leave, but please don’t be so intellectually dishonest as to conflate people standing by the law as it exists with people not caring that someone dies. Someone doesn’t have to go to jail every time someone else is shot. It has never been that way, and it never will be that.

 

[garn9173]

As an avid user of Twitter, i’ve seen some pretty disgusting tweets over the last 24 hours, however, this just maybe the best one and sums up my feelings.

twitter.com/Politics_Matter/status/356763647189585920

At the end of the day this was a terrible tragedy, but based on the law & evidence, not guilty was the correct verdict

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Nothing you claimed is true. No one has said it’s “ok to shoot a child in cold blood.” You are setting up strawmen that are easy to knock down and then exit in high dudgeon because we didn’t fall for this tactic. It doesn’t work. Try facts and logic.

Lisa

But the fact that GZ pursued AGAINST instruction of police, stated that “they” always get away and SHOT TM, those facts…There is no strawman and like I said I’m not trying to make anybody fall for anything, MY opinion is GZ was not justified in killing TM it didn’t have to happen, I mourn the loss of life. It was senseless and should not have happened period and I have no sympathy for GZ because he didn’t have to get out of the car and he didn’t have to shoot that young man and if that is a strawman I’ll be one of those. That I thought was common sense as a Christian but if we support profiling and killing now I didn’t get the memo…

 

[fix]

Oh you mean in self defense for the man that profiled and followed him even after the police told him not to. Oh yeah thats because the neighborhood watch is supposed to WATCH, GZ called the police and they insisted they did not need him to follow or pursue TM and he did it anyway. GZ took the law into his own hands, if TM was supposed to be so suspicious , So threatening and menacing THAT is why there is a trained and paid police force you DO NOT take the law into your own hands and you would not be in a situation where anybody would get beaten and there would have been NO loss of life.

I see, so because GZ did not break any moral aw or civil law he gets to be jumped and have his head smashed against cement and he should have just let himself be murdered.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

With all due respect, continuing to argue and split hairs on what happened is pointless. I believe the scenario testified to by Zimmerman and supported by certain forensic evidence. Obviously you don’t.

However as a Priest in a dangerous area, tell me what you think is the real problem, a neighborhood watch or young people who grow up without fathers or direction, who live in a swamp of violent music, video games and the uplifting of a “gangsta” culture?

The George Zimmermans of the world are NOT the cause of the gun violence in yours or other neighborhoods. I think you are blaming the wrong person/source of this and many other similar incidences.

If HALF of the concern about Zimmerman’s actions were focused on the mess in our inner cities, I would find yours and others’ objection to the results in this case more persuasive. It seems to me that those who are upset about the verdict are really either certain it was all about race or that it was all about guns.

The facts, the testimony, and the verdict all support Zimmerman. Racism claims and anti-gun rhetoric seems to be the only “evidence” to the contrary.

Lisa

Spot on.

Much like the left’s obsession with stricter gun control and complete unwillingness to tackle the more serious issues of single parents homes, children born out of wedlock, children mired in poverty due to drug abuse and violence, and a culture that glorifies sex and violence in our media, recreation and lifestyle choices.

Much easier to pass a gun law, just like it is much easier to throw GZ in jail and say “we did something positive today…” And we wonder why nothing ever changes for the better in most cities in America?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Nothing you claimed is true. No one has said it’s “ok to shoot a child in cold blood.” You are setting up strawmen that are easy to knock down and then exit in high dudgeon because we didn’t fall for this tactic. It doesn’t work. Try facts and logic.

Lisa

But that’s what the Florida state law is doing; making it OK to shoot somebody in cold blood provided you say that you perceived the victim to be a threat to your wellbeing. Concealed weapons should be outlawed, except for law enforcement personnel. LOVE, not guns!

 

[fix]

The weapon is not the issue. We could argue that all day.
Maybe without the weapon he wouldn’t be following someone around and so self assured to get out of his car and follow him more. He admits he was following him. Maybe without the weapon he’d say “I’m neighborhood watch captain what’s up.” He never identified himself as such (because he was acting as a police officer then in my opinion hoping to detain his "suspect.)

I don’t think any police officer would really agree you should be following someone that
is
1: Suspect
2: Up to no good (looks like it; whatever that means)
3: looks like they’re on drugs.

Good grief. Stay away from that suspect.

The issue is a large man was on a smaller man and beating him until he was ready to die. That is the only issue at play. The smaller man on the bottom has an absolute right to self defense. The larger man has no right to beat a man to death.

 

[garn9173]

But the fact that GZ pursued AGAINST instruction of police, stated that “they” always get away and SHOT TM, those facts…There is no strawman and like I said I’m not trying to make anybody fall for anything, MY opinion is GZ was not justified in killing TM it didn’t have to happen, I mourn the loss of life. It was senseless and should not have happened period and I have no sympathy for GZ because he didn’t have to get out of the car and he didn’t have to shoot that young man and if that is a strawman I’ll be one of those. That I thought was common sense as a Christian but if we support profiling and killing now I didn’t get the memo…

Um you do know that Zimmerman shot TM as Zimmerman was having his brains beated out? If you want to live in a fantasy world and pretend it was a cold hearted killing, by all means free feel to do so, however, a jury of Zimmerman’s peers as well as this pro-life and pro-gun Catholic disagree with you.

 

[fix]

Perhaps the was no need to say that, as no one would claim that pounding GZ’s head into the pavement was a calm and wise act.

Exactly.

 

[fix]

For those who disagree with the verdict, how do you explain this very salient aspect of it all? It was doing this that caused George Zimmerman to discharge his weapon.

They disregard it entirely.

 

[fix]

I

We don’t know what began the altercation. My first month in the parish I’m currently in, 4 people were murdered in my neighborhood. Illegal guns abound. If I saw a suspicious person I would immediately contact the police, but would never follow them for any length of time nor get out of my car at any point. That’s essentially the advice of the police.

How does any of that change the fact a man was beating another man to death?

 

[Robert_Sock]

The issue is a large man was on a smaller man and beating him until he was ready to die. That is the only issue at play. The smaller man on the bottom has an absolute right to self defense. The larger man has no right to beat a man to death.

But it could very well be possible that TM used physical force in pounding GZ’s head into the ground after GZ pulled his gun. This is perfectly plausible given the evidence, but nobody seems interested in taking this into account. This thread is so biased.

LOVE, not guns!

 

[pnewton]

…and if that is a strawman I’ll be one of those. That I thought was common sense as a Christian but if we support profiling and killing now I didn’t get the memo…

It is, in fact, a strawman. Your accusation assumes facts not in evidence, namely, that the all facts are clear and indisputable, which is obviously not true. Catholics, do not support profiling or taking of innocent life.

I have a question. If during the struggle, Trayvon would have shot George after the latter brought out a gun, would you think that Trayvon would have the right to a jury trial and the right to show where it was self-defense?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect, continuing to argue and split hairs on what happened is pointless. I believe the scenario testified to by Zimmerman and supported by certain forensic evidence. Obviously you don’t.

Agreed.

However as a Priest in a dangerous area, tell me what you think is the real problem, a neighborhood watch or young people who grow up without fathers or direction, who live in a swamp of violent music, video games and the uplifting of a “gangsta” culture?

That’s a false choice. It’s not as if its neighborhood watches *or *fatherless children.

The George Zimmermans of the world are NOT the cause of the gun violence in yours or other neighborhoods. I think you are blaming the wrong person/source of this and many other similar incidences.

I never claimed George Zimmerman was a source of gun violence. But someone being unwise with the best of intentions can also cause a gun fight in the middle of my street. It’s all theory till one of those bullets flies through your window.

If HALF of the concern about Zimmerman’s actions were focused on the mess in our inner cities, I would find yours and others’ objection to the results in this case more persuasive. It seems to me that those who are upset about the verdict are really either certain it was all about race or that it was all about guns.

Once again, I do not disagree with the verdict. However the reason we’re focused on Zimmerman’s actions in this thread is because his actions were the heart and soul of the trial.

The facts, the testimony, and the verdict all support Zimmerman.

I agree there was insufficient evidence Zimmerman murdered Martin and thus not guilty was the reasonable verdict.

Racism claims and anti-gun rhetoric seems to be the only “evidence” to the contrary.

Its rather naive to think that when an unarmed black teen is shot and killed in the USA that race isn’t going to be discussed. These are deep rooted issues in our nation that have an ugly past.

 

[zz912]

The discussion of the DOJ is on civil rights violations. That means there is no double jeopardy.

Of course there is no legitimate reason to charge Zimmerman with a civil rights violation. Last I checked it wasn’t a civil right to pound someones head into concrete.

Of course it means double jeopardy is being enacted, but lawyers in black robes have concocted nonsensical explanations for how up means down, and left means right.

5th Amendment

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

 

[april32010]

Clearly Zimmerman was way off in reporting he thought Martin was on drugs, he wasn’t. Zimmerman followed Martin for a brief period of time and probably never should have, Zimmerman also never should have gotten out of his car.

he had drugs in his system,he was a drug user.