Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[pnewton]

LOVE, not guns!

Or both. Your point about state laws that allow for vigilantism is certainly a legitimate one. It is a balancing act providing for legitimate self-defense without society devoloving into a free-for-all.

 

[Cider]

I can sympathize with George Zimmerman and he is probably innocent but his basic demeanor as well, his run ins with the law per domestic violence 2 times and shoving a police officer, being treated for alcohol and other events really does point to questions as to whether one would want to be dealing with this individual carrying a gun.

Everyone applying to have a concealed carry permit has a background check. He clearly passed that since he had a valid CCW. Which means the police and the law don’t agree with you.

 

[BroomWagon]

The toxicology exam, which was conducted the morning after Mr. Martin was killed, found a mere 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of blood of tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, in his body. This strongly suggests he had not ingested marijuana for at least 24 hours. This is also far below the THC levels that I have found necessary, in my experimental research on dozens of subjects, to induce intoxication: between 40 and 400 nanograms per milliliter. In fact, his THC levels were significantly lower than the sober, baseline levels of about 14 nanograms per milliliter of many of my patients, who are daily users. Mr. Martin could not have been intoxicated with marijuana at the time of the shooting; the amount of THC found in his system was too low for it to have had any meaningful effect on him.

nytimes.com/2013/07/12/opinion/reefer-madness-an-unfortunate-redux.html?_r=2&

 

[SamH]

We know Trayvon Martin had marijuana in his system. I don’t know if this means he was high at the time of the altercation.

The medical examiner says differently.

Shiping Bao, the medical examiner who autopsied Trayvon Martin, testified with jurors gone from the courtroom Friday that pot in the teen’s system “could have” altered his mind and body the night he died

Read more: businessinsider.com/trayvon-martins-marijuana-use-2013-7#ixzz2Z7gbkSMC

 

[LisaA]

That’s a false choice. It’s not as if its neighborhood watches *or *fatherless children.

I never claimed George Zimmerman was a source of gun violence. But someone being unwise with the best of intentions can also cause a gun fight in the middle of my street. It’s all theory till one of those bullets flies through your window.

Its rather naive to think that when an unarmed black teen is shot and killed in the USA that race isn’t going to be discussed. These are deep rooted issues in our nation that have an ugly past.

Clipped the portion of your post where we are still in disagreement or not agreeing to disagree.

I did not say it was “either or” with respect to the chaos in the urban areas and neighborhood watch. I suggested that trying to equate gang violence, black on black crime in inner cities with a man who kills someone of a different race in self defense does not make sense. I would accept your suggestion IF you had any evidence that neighborhood watch members or just plain old citizens who have a concealed carry WERE the cause of most or even many gun deaths. I don’t believe you have such evidence. It is a tragedy when a child is shot sleeping in her bed by a stray bullet. But is that bullet likely to come from a gun held by a concerned citizen or a gang banger? I read the news, I read the statistics. As I said, the George Zimmermans of the world are NOT the cause of any but the rarest of gun related deaths.

In fact I suggest that the RARITY of such instances is the very reason this case has resulted in such a hue and cry. Gun violence, the death of black youth are daily events in certain inner cities. It doesn’t raise the proverbial eyebrow of the Left or the anti-gun activists.

Further people keep stating that Martin was “unarmed.” This seems to posit the theory he was just walking along, minding his own business and was gunned down in the streets. In fact this very statement was made by certain members of Congress as well as some of the less informed posters on CAF. Martin did not have a firearm. But he WAS armed with size, strength, phyisical ability and apparently some MMA training. Human strength IS a deadly weapon. Martin was armed with his two arms. He could have killed Zimmerman without a gun.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

Everyone applying to have a concealed carry permit has a background check. He clearly passed that since he had a valid CCW.

Are you saying George Zimmerman was not brought up on charges of domestic abuse two times, shoving a police officer and was sent to treatment for alcohol??

I don’t see where anyone was talking about a background check or a concealed and carry permit. I think we all already know this. Thank you for telling us again.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Really? So after Zimmerman pulled his gun Martin threw him to the ground, straddled him and started punching him and only then did Zimmerman shoot him?

I think I know why no one has considered this a pausible chain of events.

No, TM could have been of top of GZ but it may be that TM only used physical force of banging his head on the ground after GZ pulled his gun. It you were on top of somebody and they pulled a gun on you, what would your response be?

Again, this thread is largely biased in favor of GZ’s perspective.

LOVE, not guns!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The medical examiner disagrees with you.

The medical examiner had a hard time keeping any of his opinions straight. Initially he said the amounts found would not have altered Martin’s behavior, then at trial he said it “could have no effect or some effect” (not “did have an effect”). Not exactly a weighty opinion. The judge didn’t permit him to testify to that in front of the jury.

Plenty of other doctors and scientists clearly stated that the amount found in Martin could not have intoxicated him and was so low he couldn’t have smoked pot within 24 hours.

 

[Cider]

It amazes me how many times the same details have been presented from evidence at the trial and yet some folks still insist on repeating things they have heard that have been proven inaccurate. That is a big part of the problem. The inaccurate stories just get repeated. Many people didn’t watch the trial or even read transcripts and yet repeat something based on opinion. When will that stop?

That’s what happens when people refuse to educate themselves before coming to conclusions and then insist on remaining ignorant of the facts and evidence.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This thread is infested by gun worshipers! Where are your Catholic virtues!

LOVE, not guns!

 

[SamH]

You don’t get the fact that charging someone with a civil rights violation is a different charge than 2nd degree murder or manslaughter? Really?

Personally I don’t see any evidence of civil rights violations, the DOJ is grasping at straws. But LEGALLY they are not the same charges.

While I agree with your emotional point that DOJ just wants to get him on something, legally it’s not double jeopardy.

I agree on all points. The “civil rights” charge is different than a murder charge, but in my opinion would be even harder to prove in this case. Many in the media that made this about race are being sued for falsifying the facts.

 

[Cider]

Are you saying George Zimmerman was not brought up on charges of domestic abuse two times, shoving a police officer and was sent to treatment for alcohol??

I don’t see where anyone was talking about a background check or a concealed and carry permit. I think we all already know this. Thank you for telling us again.

You said he shouldn’t have had a gun. The law disagrees, since whatever his previous record showed, it didn’t bar him from owning it or carrying it.

 

[SamH]

I would get out of the country while the getting is good if I were Zimmerman. Start a new life in a new country before the civil lawsuits and vigilantes get to him.

Zimmerman will make millions off the civil lawsuits. I can think of three media outlets that are going to pay him.

 

[BroomWagon]

What does that have to do with the post you responded too?

Okay you responded to this post that was NOT directed at you, therefore:

George Zimmerman was the one who was tried, Trayvon Martin was not tried unless I’m missing the story.

If you can show where the Jury said Trayvon Martin was “foolish and violent”, I will accept it, however, I note, CAF rules somewhere I was reading it, requires one to use “reason” at least in addressing questions.

It is reasonable to request the exact finding people are asserting that the Jury found Trayvon Martin was “foolish and violent”, if this can NOT be found, I will not indulge in a conversation that does not appear logical to me. This is straightforward, please quote the Jury’s finding other than George Zimmerman being found “NOT guilty” of all charges including murder.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Nobody has to take me seriously, its a free country. I feel the way I feel. I AM shocked that there are so many who feel that this is okay and feel that it is okay that this young man was killed. MY brain finds it difficult to process but clearly I am the minority (tongue firmly in cheek) so I will exit stage left on this discussion since dissenting opinions are not respected or appreciated. I will NEVER think its okay to shot down a child in cold blood if you disagree or can justify that, its between you and the God you serve clearly different from the God I pray to.

I don’t think anybody feels it was okay. It was tragic that the young man died and that another young man’s life has been changed forever.

 

[SamH]

Okay you responded to this post that was NOT directed at you, therefore:

George Zimmerman was the one who was tried, Trayvon Martin was not tried unless I’m missing the story.

If you can show where the Jury said Trayvon Martin was “foolish and violent”, I will accept it, however, I note, CAF rules somewhere I was reading it, requires one to use “reason” at least in addressing questions.

It is reasonable to request the exact finding people are asserting that the Jury found Trayvon Martin was “foolish and violent”, if this can NOT be found, I will not indulge in a conversation that does not appear logical to me. This is straightforward, please quote the Jury’s finding other than George Zimmerman being found “NOT guilty” of all charges including murder.

Why did they not find him guilty - obviously he killed someone - he said so.

 

[LisaA]

The medical examiner had a hard time keeping any of his opinions straight. Initially he said the amounts found would not have altered Martin’s behavior, then at trial he said it “could have no effect or some effect” (not “did have an effect”). Not exactly a weighty opinion. The judge didn’t permit him to testify to that in front of the jury.

Plenty of other doctors and scientists clearly stated that the amount found in Martin could not have intoxicated him and was so low he couldn’t have smoked pot within 24 hours.

I think the only relevence of the potential drug use was to character rather than a factor in choosing to confront Zimmerman. Aside from that pot tends to make people sleepy and passive rather than aggressive. There has also been a number of clips of Martin’s FB and other social media indicating he wanted to avoid pot which could be detected in drug tests for a concoction using the “tea” purchased at the store. IOW I don’t know that whether or not he ingested pot had much to do with what happened, rather it points to a troubled young man with a number of other problems (drugs, crime, family break up).

I maintain that he was a young man with little impulse control, who was probably very annoyed by the “crackah” following him. He was probably sensitive to the racial implications and probably angry that he was “targeted” for being black. I don’t think it was so much drugs as testosterone and a lack of maturity. A fatal combination in this case.

Lisa

 

[Cider]

Of COURSE it is a different charge. But the charge is for the same ACT. Or should we be okay with a govt that simply keeps bringing new charges for the same act against someone when they didn’t get a conviction on other charges? You could keep someone locked up awaiting trials for decades under this standard.

I’m not debating this with you anymore. You are arguing feelings, I’m arguing law. It’s legal. Period.

 

[BroomWagon]

You said he shouldn’t have had a gun. The law disagrees, since whatever his previous record showed, it didn’t bar him from owning it or carrying it.

Excuse me, no one said such a thing.

I can sympathize with George Zimmerman and he is probably innocent but his basic demeanor as well, his run ins with the law per domestic violence 2 times and shoving a police officer, being treated for alcohol and other events**** really does point to questions as to whether one would want to be dealing with this individual carrying a gun.****

I accept your apology for misinterpreting my words. Thank you.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I suggested that trying to equate gang violence, black on black crime in inner cities with a man who kills someone of a different race in self defense does not make sense.

Never equated the two.

I would accept your suggestion IF you had any evidence that neighborhood watch members or just plain old citizens who have a concealed carry WERE the cause of most or even many gun deaths. I don’t believe you have such evidence.

Never said they were.

It is a tragedy when a child is shot sleeping in her bed by a stray bullet. But is that bullet likely to come from a gun held by a concerned citizen or a gang banger? I read the news, I read the statistics. As I said, the George Zimmermans of the world are NOT the cause of any but the rarest of gun related deaths.

Once again never said they were. But unwise actions that can have bad consequences don’t become viable choices just because we have good intentions.

In fact I suggest that the RARITY of such instances is the very reason this case has resulted in such a hue and cry. Gun violence, the death of black youth are daily events in certain inner cities. It doesn’t raise the proverbial eyebrow of the Left or the anti-gun activists.

I don’t speak for them.

Further people keep stating that Martin was “unarmed.” This seems to posit the theory he was just walking along, minding his own business and was gunned down in the streets. In fact this very statement was made by certain members of Congress as well as some of the less informed posters on CAF. Martin did not have a firearm. But he WAS armed with size, strength, phyisical ability and apparently some MMA training. Human strength IS a deadly weapon. Martin was armed with his two arms. He could have killed Zimmerman without a gun.

Well, that’s anybody walking down the street at any time…