Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

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First SPLC and now the NYT

um ok. Yes both sources known to be fair and balanced. :rolleyes:
Along with the note that this is COMMENTARY, an opinion piece. Again they are interjecting SYG laws, the mass shootings and the desire for gun control which is the real agenda.

Lisa
 
I dunno why you keep trying to engage him since he isn’t even trying to engage us with anything but leftist slogans mindlessly parroted ad nauseum.
Exactly. It’s time to stop taking the bait of the deliberately obtuse.
 
Just thougt you all might be interested in this…

commentary on the state of race relations and the battle over gun rights in America today.
Op-Ed New York Times.

Certainly it is about race rest clipped for brevity
Basically what this person is saying is that there is racism here and he or she expects us to take his word for it. There is not the slightest support for racism in the essay. What does this author think he is adding to the conversation?
 
I dunno why you keep trying to engage him since he isn’t even trying to engage us with anything but leftist slogans mindlessly parroted ad nauseum.
True and as a side note there is another thread right now about two teen boys who rescued a little girl from a kidnapper by following him on their bikes. If I use the logic on this thread the boys are vigilantes and wrong. Is that the standard now? The new normal?
 
Just thougt you all might be interested in this…

commentary on the state of race relations and the battle over gun rights in America today.
Op-Ed New York Times.

Certainly it is about race — ask any black man, up to and including President Obama, and he will tell you at least a few stories that sound eerily like what happened that rainy winter night in Sanford, Fla.
While Mr. Zimmerman’s conviction might have provided an emotional catharsis, we would still be a country plagued by racism, which persists in ever more insidious forms despite the Supreme Court’s sanguine assessment that “things have changed dramatically,” as it said in last month’s ruling striking down the heart of the Voting Rights Act. (The Justice Department is right to continue its investigation into whether Mr. Zimmerman may still be prosecuted under federal civil rights laws.)
The jury reached its verdict after having been asked to consider Mr. Zimmerman’s actions in light of Florida’s now-notorious Stand Your Ground statute. Under that law, versions of which are on the books in two dozen states, a person may use deadly force if he or she “reasonably believes” it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm — a low bar that the prosecutors in this case fought in vain to overcome.
These laws sound intuitive: who would argue that you may not protect yourself against great harm? But of course, the concept of “reasonable belief” is transformed into something deadly dangerous when firearms are involved. And when the Stand Your Ground laws intersect with lax concealed-carry laws, it works essentially to self-deputize anyone with a Kel-Tec 9 millimeter and a grudge.
It has been a bad year so far for gun control. But if anything, cases like this should be as troubling as the mass killings that always prompt a national outcry and promises of legislative remedy. We were heartened that President Obama, in his statement after the verdict was issued, took the opportunity to denounce once again “the tide of gun violence” sweeping the country.
In the end, what is most frightening is that there are so many people with guns who are like George Zimmerman. Fear and racism may never be fully eliminated by legislative or judicial order, but neither should our laws allow and even facilitate their most deadly expression. Trayvon Martin was an unarmed boy walking home from the convenience store. If only Florida could give him back his life as easily as it is giving back George Zimmerman’s gun
What propaganda. Again, the lefties blame the victim. How thoughtful.
 
It’s not just leaders, but also the a certain faction of the public that thinks mob rule and emotionalism should win out of the law.
Well put!

But, mind you, these “spontaneous public demonstrations” are not spontaneous at all.

They’ve probably been getting them ready (and funded) for weeks in case the jury acquitted Zimmerman.

Pushing “mob rule” always takes a little help from the top.
 
Certainly it is about race — ask any black man, up to and including President Obama, and he will tell you at least
I think there is a sense in which you are right. If Trayvon Martin would have been able to gain control of the gun and then shoot George Zimmerman in self-defense, I do not think we would have had the ground swell of support for him, or the violence upon his acquittal.
 
Worship God, not guns!
The NRA! Vigilantes! Many of the NRA members place too much faith and trust in guns, and little or no faith and trust in God. LOVE, not guns!
This thread is infested by gun worshipers! Where are your Catholic virtues!LOVE, not guns!
this it getting old, who has given the impression they worship guns? and your inference is someone who owns a firearm is guilty of idolatry :mad: the Church allows one to defend themselve.
 
True and necessary to defend your life when a man is trying to beat you to death.
I am less quick than most here it seems to buy into GZ’s story or any testimony suggesting his head was being plummeted into the cement with such frequency and force as required to be beaten to death. And yes I saw the pictures. After killing TM, GZ walked away with a few minor 1 inch or less abrasions on his head covered with bandaids. Which were healing by the time he saw a medical professional the next day so stitches were not even applied.

Now the question then is how many times does a person need to have his head pressed or hit against cement before he fires a deadly shot directly into the heart? I believe with more frequency and force than was probably actually being done when you’re able to walk away with a few bandaids.

I have no doubt if GZ had simply done what the dispatcher suggested when he was told they didn’t need him following TM to which GZ replied “okay”, and had he simply sat in his truck awaiting for the cops to arrive, the incident would have been completely avoided.

And based on the extent of GZ’s actual injuries, I personally have enough reasonable doubt when after killing TM and GZ walks away with just a few bandaids, as to whether firing a deadly bullet into TM’s heart was justified.

Had I been on the jury, I would have been able to go down to manslaughter but no further. So the jury would have hung and the state of FL would now be deciding whether to retry the case.

In any case we can agree or disagree with the verdict of any trial. As the prosecutor said the system is not perfect. But I pray for the heartbroken Martin family and believe as they do in a higher power. And believe as a child’s grieving mother does, that her son is in heaven.
 
Inaccurate. Zimmerman was not a vigilante. He was a neighborhood watchman.
He was not a vigilante, because he did not set out to kill or punish the person. However, I can not view him as a neighborhood watchman, as he also abandoned his “watching” in favor or armed pursuit.
 
I am less quick than most it seems to buy into GZ’s story or any testimony suggesting his head was being plummeted into the cement with such frequency and force as required to be beaten to death. And yes I saw the pictures. After killing TM, GZ walked away with a few minor 1 inch or less abrasions on his head covered with bandaids. Which were healing by the time he saw a medical professional the next day so stitches were not even applied.

Now the question then is how many times does a person need to have his head pressed or hit against cement before he fires a deadly shot directly into the heart? I believe with more frequency and force than was probably actually being done when you’re able to walk away with a few bandaids.

I have no doubt if GZ had simply done what the dispatcher suggested when he was told they didn’t need him following TM to which GZ replied “okay”, and had he simply sat in his truck awaiting for the cops to arrive, the incident would have been completely avoided.

And based on the extent of GZ’s actual injuries, I personally have enough reasonable doubt when after killing TM and GZ walks away with just a few bandaids, as to whether firing a deadly bullet into TM’s heart was justified.

Had I been on the jury, I would have been able to go down to manslaughter but no further. So the jury would have hung and the state of FL would now be deciding whether to retry the case.

In any case we can agree or disagree with the verdict of any trial. As the prosecutor said the system is not perfect. But I pray for the heartbroken Martin family and believe as they do in a higher power. And believe as a child’s grieving mother does, that her son is in heaven.
How badly beaten should one be before fighting for one’s life? If you are 5’8" and have a 6’1" man on top of you beating your head would you feel like it was no big deal? See, on tv people get up and dust themselves off. In real life you die. It happens often. As I have said before one punch can kill. I would never take this so lightly and neither should anyone unless they have an agenda.
 
The NRA! Vigilantes! Many of the NRA members place too much faith and trust in guns, and little or no faith and trust in God.

LOVE, not guns!
What fact do you have to back this up. If you do not, than you are bearing false witness which is against the law of Love. In other words, you should love more and stop lying.
 
Just thougt you all might be interested in this…

commentary on the state of race relations and the battle over gun rights in America today.
Op-Ed New York Times.

Certainly it is about race — ask any black man, up to and including President Obama, and he will tell you at least a few stories that sound eerily like what happened that rainy winter night in Sanford, Fla.
While Mr. Zimmerman’s conviction might have provided an emotional catharsis, we would still be a country plagued by racism, which persists in ever more insidious forms despite the Supreme Court’s sanguine assessment that “things have changed dramatically,” as it said in last month’s ruling striking down the heart of the Voting Rights Act. (The Justice Department is right to continue its investigation into whether Mr. Zimmerman may still be prosecuted under federal civil rights laws.)
The jury reached its verdict after having been asked to consider Mr. Zimmerman’s actions in light of Florida’s now-notorious Stand Your Ground statute.

Absoultely false. This case did not involve SYG. It was the basic self-defense law.

Under that law, versions of which are on the books in two dozen states, a person may use deadly force if he or she “reasonably believes” it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm — a low bar that the prosecutors in this case fought in vain to overcome.

Sorry, that’s not SYG. That has always been the basic self-defense law— you are justified in the use of lethal force if a person in that situation would reasonably believe they were in imminent fear of serious bodily harm.

These laws sound intuitive: who would argue that you may not protect yourself against great harm? But of course, the concept of “reasonable belief” is transformed into something deadly dangerous when firearms are involved.

No, the concept is not changed at all. Either you are justified in the use of lethal force or you are not. What does change, is if the victims have the ability to be armed, have access to effective means for self-defense, their odds for survival increase greatly. An 80 year old woman, a petite woman have are at a physical disadvantage if they are restricted from the use of firearms in self-defense.

And when the Stand Your Ground laws intersect with lax concealed-carry laws, it works essentially to self-deputize anyone with a Kel-Tec 9 millimeter and a grudge.

Again, the incident did not involve SYG law. The author doesn’t define lax concealed carry or point out the drop in violent crime in those states. (Property crime tends to go up, criminals have even more incentive to avoid confrontation). It certainly doesn’t deputize anyone or give anyone additional authority. That’s hyperbole and emotionalism. The rules don’t change, either lethal force in defense of your life is legal in the situation, or its not.

It has been a bad year so far for gun control. But if anything, cases like this should be as troubling as the mass killings that always prompt a national outcry and promises of legislative remedy. We were heartened that President Obama, in his statement after the verdict was issued, took the opportunity to denounce once again “the tide of gun violence” sweeping the country.

Yet where victims are denied effective means to defend themselves we get more victims, more deaths, not less.

In the end, what is most frightening is that there are so many people with guns who are like George Zimmerman.

I’d like to know what his definition of George Zimmerman is. An innocent man trying to help out in his neighborhood? Looking out for other folks? Actually getting involved-- which was what everyone says we need- people willing to step up and volunteer in their neighborhood. A black/hispanic man admired by his neighbors, the kind of guy standing up for a homeless black man who’d been beaten by a policemans’ relative. I don’t have a problem with the law abiding having the means to effectively defend themseleves. Why is that a problem for this author? Its not based on who the real GZ, or the real CCW holders---- its based on his straw men, his projection of what he thinks they are vice what they really are.

Fear and racism may never be fully eliminated by legislative or judicial order, but neither should our laws allow and even facilitate their most deadly expression.

Another author projecting their own biases into a situation. A person incapable of seeing things without inserting race into it.

Trayvon Martin was an unarmed boy walking home from the convenience store. If only Florida could give him back his life as easily as it is giving back George Zimmerman’s gun

Ignoring the evidence indicating this unarmed boy probably attacked someone. It would be nice if this author could give GZ back his life that has been ruined by what was most likely a politically motivated prosecution.
 
He was not a vigilante, because he did not set out to kill or punish the person. However, I can not view him as a neighborhood watchman, as he also abandoned his “watching” in favor or armed pursuit.
If that was “armed pursuit” he also failed at that.
 
Well put!

But, mind you, these “spontaneous public demonstrations” are not spontaneous at all.

They’ve probably been getting them ready (and funded) for weeks in case the jury acquitted Zimmerman.

Pushing “mob rule” always takes a little help from the top.
They had them all ready to go since they used them last year. Remember the New Black Panther party radio shows calling for them to rise up and take over? Remember the bounty on Zimmerman’s head.
 
He doesn’t sounds like he is going on emotion not fact or reason.

Love God… guns are ok!
What fact do you have to back this up. If you do not, than you are bearing false witness which is against the law of Love. In other words, you should love more and stop lying.
 
Over my lunch hour I followed a man to the registers and after we checked out I followed him to the parking lot where our cars were parked. Did I break any laws doing this?

If the man had noticed I was following him would he have been justified in attacking me?

If I had defended myself from the attack would I have broken the law (inhibiting a criminal in the course of his job)?

Just wondering.
 
I doubt it… depnds on the state and why you were following i’d imagine.
Over my lunch hour I followed a man to the registers and after we checked out I followed him to the parking lot where our cars were parked. Did I break any laws doing this?

If the man had noticed I was following him would he have been justified in attacking me?

If I had defended myself from the attack would I have broken the law (inhibiting a criminal in the course of his job)?

Just wondering.
 
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