Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

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meltzerboy said:
I’m curious regarding why Martin should have had to explain his behavior of walking through the neighborhood to Zimmerman or anyone else? What was Martin doing that would have prohibited him from walking in this neighborhood?
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I’m not sure Zimmerman initiated the verbal exchange but even if he did, Martin was acting suspiciously in an area where there had apparently been a series of recent break ins. Surely you have read or heard how his behavior was described…someone he didn’t recognize, wearing a hoodie, wandering around in the rain, appearing to be looking into homes, not seeming to be proceeding anywhere particularly. Quite honestly many states have laws against what Martin was doing…at best loitering and at worst perhaps casing homes for a break in.

BTW before you go into Hoodie Mania take a look at the video of Martin in the store shortly before he was killed. Wearing the hoodie inside, it obscured his face but the clerk could see him in the light and probably judged him as just a harmless kid with the “uniform” of teenagers everywhere. However it also made him difficult to recognize (hence my belief that Zimmerman profiled his BEHAVIOR not his skin color). You really could not see clearly and according to Zimmerman’s testimony, Martin walked toward his truck before deciding the leave the scene. I think all of this comports to the conclusion of the jury that Zimmerman didn’t see a black teenager but a tall male in a hoodie…IOW not a racial profile but a behavior profile.

As a concerned citizen, as a Neighborhood Watch member he certainly had the right to ask what this stranger was doing in the neighborhood. It was quite small and likely Zimmerman knew many of the residents at least by sight.

And Martin had the right to tell him to go to h**l if he wanted.

He didn’t have to start a physical fight. Again all evidence points to Martin’s ability to escape, to go home, to call 911 to have Jeantel call 911.

All of the evidence I have heard supports the jury’s conclusion. But if you (not you personally but others) insist that if you carry a gun you are de facto guilty of WHATEVER happens, I doubt if anything will convince you otherwise.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Do you have the innate wit to figure out how to design the machinery and tooling to mass produce simple toothpicks? Do you personally know anyone who does possess this innate wit? Who said anything about demons? I said an upper world. Think about it! Who produces all the machinery necessary to have brought our world to where it is today, over the past 150 years?
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This thread as been low on toothpicks and high on nitpicks
 
Gated community. You can see it’s relatively small, homes close together. Look at the paths crossed.
 
This case has really opened up sore divisions.

Let me say first off that as far as I can see, the evidence just isn’t there to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman provoked or intended the confrontation, in which case he must be found not guilty (as indeed was the decision of the jury).

But, and it’s a big but, it seems very dangerous to go after someone with a gun simply because they are acting suspiciously. The question then becomes, as I think Robert was suggesting earlier, whether Zimmerman’s pursuit of Martin was simply foolish or if it was tinged with an element of anger or something more. Why did he not follow the the neighbourhood watch guidelines which say Watch members :

should not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority

Zimmerman said that Martin jumped him. This may or may not be true - there’s no other evidence either way. The other possibility is that Zimmerman saw Martin and challenged him. Again, no evidence.

From a legal point of view Zimmerman may be not guilty - from a moral point of view, his actions in not letting the law enforcement agencies deal with the incident led to the later struggle, and he must bear some responsibility for this terrible incident.
 
maryjk said:
After looking at this map, how can anyone think that Zimmerman stalked or followed Martin?
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Yes I found looking at this helped me understand the testimony. According to Jeantel, Martin had fled. Apparently when asked she also said she thought Martin had confronted Zimmerman and threw the first punch. At any rate I think it’s clear Martin could have avoided the altercation in any number of ways. I just think that he was a young kid without a lot of judgment about discretion being the better part of valor.

Honestly as much as anyone thinks I’m an apologist for Zimmerman, I’m not. Nor do I think Martin was unjustified in being angry at being followed. As a black youth he probably had been profiled, watched and followed in the past. I’m sure he’d had enough of being stereotyped (this regardless of whether or not the stereotype is sometimes justified) But instead of teaching Zimmerman a lesson had he simply gone home he would not be dead.

Lisa
 
liturgyluver said:
My understanding is that he was temporarily staying at the comunity - otherwise the suggestion that all he had to go was go home makes absolutely no sense. And if he was staying there - how could this be trespass?

nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html
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Interesting article because it’s a year old. The photo of the community shows the short distances between the homes, between Martin’s father’s home and the place he was shot. Apparently he had been suspended from school and was staying with his father in the community.

I read both articles and most of the info was same old same old. One thing though they said Zimmerman said when Martin approached his truck he seemed threatening and Zimmerman did not roll his window down. The officer at the time said well why did he get out of the truck and “follow” Martin but more recent testimony indicates Martin had fled the area so while Zimmerman may have looked in the direction he thought Martin had run, he wasn’t trying to follow or apprehend him.

As to a trespassing charge, the development may have required all guests register. I know a seniors only golf community makes this requirement. If you go into the community as a guest you have to register. So while he may have been trespassing in accordance with the letter of the law, likely no one would have brought charges. I think the point is that it’s a relatively small community, a stranger acting strangely on a dark night draws attention and then draws the stranger toward Zimmerman. He apparently sees Zimmerman reach for a cell phone to call 911 and runs off.

He should have stayed gone.

LIsa
 
MaryT777 said:
Because when asked by the dispatcher if he was following Martin Zimmerman himself said
yea.
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And one more time with feeling…according to the recording he was told “we don’t need you to do that” and apparently stood down. He lost sight of Martin. Martin came back, for whatever reason. That is why he is dead.

Lisa
 
LisaA said:
And one more time with feeling…according to the recording he was told “we don’t need you to do that” and apparently stood down. He lost sight of Martin. Martin came back, for whatever reason. That is why he is dead.

Lisa
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As should this thread.
 
LisaA said:
And one more time with feeling…according to the recording he was told “we don’t need you to do that” and apparently stood down. He lost sight of Martin. Martin came back, for whatever reason. That is why he is dead.

Lisa
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But TM’s body was found some 53 yards from GZ’s truck, suggesting that he disobeyed the dispatcher and followed TM anyway.
 
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