Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[LisaA]

I think the issue was should Zimmerman have had a gun to begin with given his run in with assaulting the police and problems with violence in his relationship with his girlfriend.
I have no issues with guns because ‘guns don’t kill people, people do.’

And the fact is Z took his gun and killed TM who is not here to defend himself.
Z is here now to live his life and TM is not even here to give his account.

In another state Z may have been found guilty but that’s the legal system and I have no issue with the acquittal but Z’s actions have consequences and now he can’t help someone because no one wants to be associated with him. No ne wants to end up dead
for no reason like TM did.

That said, we know he could be armed so if we see him we will know to call the police if he is following us around either in his vehicle or on foot.

More unsubstantiated opinions regarding gun rights and Zimmerman’s qualification to own a firearm. That you have “no problem” with gun ownership or the verdict is laughable.

As Joe Friday said, the facts ma’am, just the facts.

Lisa

 

[Farsight001]

Again, the real crime was committed by the State of Florida in allowing a concealed weapon to be placed on an amateur law enforcement personnel. GZ was clearly acting as a vigilante. Neighborhood watch personnel ought not to be allowed to profile and follow “suspects!” The sole purpose of neighborhood watch ought to only be allowed to report “suspicious” activity to properly trained law enforcement.

I don’t think a single sentence you stated was accurate…

 

[liturgyluver]

More unsubstantiated opinions regarding gun rights and Zimmerman’s qualification to own a firearm. That you have “no problem” with gun ownership or the verdict is laughable.

As Joe Friday said, the facts ma’am, just the facts.

Lisa

I have noticed Lisa that whenever someone expresses an opinion you disagree with you slam into them in a very rude and patronising manner and then go on to express your own opinions which are no more or less valid than anyone else’s. Please refrain from using capitals (it constitutes shouting) and using remarks like ohh purrrlease as that is very rude. You can’t have your own way all the time!

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t think a single sentence you stated was accurate…

I don’t believe so either.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have noticed Lisa that whenever someone expresses an opinion you disagree with you slam into them in a very rude and patronising manner and then go on to express your own opinions which are no more or less valid than anyone else’s. Please refrain from using capitals (it constitutes shouting) and using remarks like ohh purrrlease as that is very rude. You can’t have your own way all the time!

I notice that when some can’t attack the position held, they attack the person. Just Saying. But of course you are coming from a place of concern.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I don’t think a single sentence you stated was accurate…

Lesson not learned!

 

[mtbender]

Lesson not learned!

Kind of hard to learn a lesson when it is full of ambiguous terms and clearly unsupported assumptions…

 

[Robert_Sock]

Kind of hard to learn a lesson when it is full of ambiguous terms and clearly unsupported assumptions…

Can you please be more specific? I would really like to discuss this further.

 

[mtbender]

I think the issue was should Zimmerman have had a gun to begin with given his run in with assaulting the police and problems with violence in his relationship with his girlfriend.
I have no issues with guns because ‘guns don’t kill people, people do.’

So mere allegations (no conviction) is enough to bar someone from their constitutional rights? GZ was never convicted of assaulting a police officer and the domestic issue was a clear case of “he said/she said” where both parties filed restraining orders against the other and were granted one. No criminal charges were filed.

Is that enough take away someone’s constitutional right? Should we apply this to every case where there is no conviction or the charges are dropped?

 

[mtbender]

Can you please be more specific? I would really like to discuss this further.

Gladly…

How do you define armature law enforcement?
Aside from mere conjecture, where does the idea that GZ was acting as a vigilante come from?
Profile? What evidence supports this claim?

 

[St_Francis]

I am to looking for something. I want to make it clear I did not write the above. It presented an argument that I had not seen before. When I first posted it, there were no comments. Either because no one read it or there is not counter.

Adrift,
Thank you for posting the analysis–I understood you didn’t write it There were facts in it I didn’t know, and the analysis certainly fits the facts, including Jeantel’s comments.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Gladly…

How do you define armature law enforcement?
Aside from mere conjecture, where does the idea that GZ was acting as a vigilante come from?
Profile? What evidence supports this claim?

I define an amateur law enforcement personnel as anyone carrying a concealed weapon who is not properly trained in law enforcement. Likewise, a vigilante is someone who seeks the implementation of justice on their own instead of relying on the proper authorities. Based on these definitions, GZ was both an amateur and a vigilante. Look up the definitions for ‘amateur’ and ‘vigilante’ if you do not believe me. Moreover, it’s Florida state law that is responsible for putting a concealed weapon on GZ.

 

[SamH]

I define an amateur law enforcement personnel as anyone carrying a concealed weapon who is not properly trained in law enforcement. .

Why is that?

As for “vigilante” you might want to look that one up, you are not using it correctly.

 

[mtbender]

I define an amateur law enforcement personnel as anyone carrying a concealed weapon who is not properly trained in law enforcement. Likewise, a vigilante is someone who seeks the implementation of justice on their own instead of relying on the proper authorities. Based on these definitions, GZ was both an amateur and a vigilante. Look up the definitions for ‘amateur’ and ‘vigilante’ if you do not believe me. Moreover, it’s Florida state law that is responsible for putting a concealed weapon on GZ.

Well you have cited definitions, but no evidence to support the claims. Deeming everyone with a CC permit and no law enforcement training “armature law enforcement” is a fabrication of a definition that does not exist. The only thing we can say as fact regarding GZs firearm is that it was legally owned and he possessed a valid concealed carry permit – he was never, nor did he ever claim he was, acting in any law enforcement capacity.

On the other 2 points, I am still waiting for you to lay out the evidence to support your claims – it going to take more than Webster’s dictionary and mere conjecture.

 

[St_Francis]

I don’t believe anyone is ignoring facts about TM. I don’t believe he was a perfect angel at all; however I’m not sure what the point is about that. That someone was not a little angel does not mean they deserve to end up dead.

No one has said that Martin “deserved” to end up dead. *But neither did Zimmerman. *

Let me ask you this: suppose an elevator got stuck and the one occupant, a teenage boy, started groping the other occupant, a woman, and grabbing at her clothes to try to tear them off. She pulls out her gun and shoots, killing him.

Does he deserve to die? No–we would not kill him if he were convicted of even multiple rapes. But the question is, did she deserve to be raped? No.

Pistols got the nickname equalizers because they changed the power equation. No longer could people who were bigger, stronger, and/or better fighters be able to rape or beat people up or kill people with impunity.

GZ was no angel but he’s here to defend himself and TM is not.

The reason Martin is no longer here to defend himself is that he *chose *to use his fighting skills against a man who at that moment posed no threat to him.

Here is information about head injuries–remember that Martin was banging Zimmerman’s head against the sidewalk, putting him at risk of head injuries.

Died as a result of one punch

Another died from single punch

About 2 deaths from single punches per year in UK/Ireland

Death due to strike on head during HS football game

Even Football Players Without Concussions Show Signs of Brain Injury

fall or injury doesn’t have to be hard at all. The delay in symptoms can range from five minutes to three hours after the accident.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well you have cited definitions, but no evidence to support the claims. Deeming everyone with a CC permit and no law enforcement training “armature law enforcement” is a fabrication of a definition that does not exist. The only thing we can say as fact regarding GZs firearm is that it was legally owned and he possessed a valid concealed carry permit – he was never, nor did he ever claim he was, acting in any law enforcement capacity.

On the other 2 points, I am still waiting for you to lay out the evidence to support your claims – it going to take more than Webster’s dictionary and mere conjecture.

How would you define “armature law enforcement?” And, what evidence do you have that GZ was not acting as a vigilante? Simply stating that he had a valid permit begs the question.

 

[maryjk]

How would you define “armature law enforcement?” And, what evidence do you have that GZ was not acting as a vigilante? Simply stating that he had a valid permit begs the question.

Sorry, I am getting from this that, everyone with a permit is a vigilante.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[SamH]

And, what evidence do you have that GZ was not acting as a vigilante? Simply stating that he had a valid permit begs the question.

Why would a vigilante call the police?

 

[BroomWagon]

The only minority on the all-female jury that voted to acquit George Zimmerman said today that Zimmerman “got away with murder” for killing Trayvon Martin and feels she owes an apology Martin’s parents.

“You can’t put the man in jail even though in our hearts we felt he was guilty,” said the woman who was identified only as Juror B29 during the trial. “But we had to grab our hearts and put it aside and look at the evidence.”

**She said the jury was following Florida law and the evidence, she said, did not prove murder. **

abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-juror-murder/storynew?id=19770659

 

[mtbender]

How would you define “armature law enforcement?” And, what evidence do you have that GZ was not acting as a vigilante? Simply stating that he had a valid permit begs the question.

I wouldn’t use the term armature law enforcement; therefore I have no reason to define it…

Let me be sure I have this right, you want me to show evidence to refute your claim that you have not shown evidence to support? You are the one that indicated that GZ was acting as a vigilante; I simply challenged your assertion. If you can’t support it with evidence than my point is already proven…

What question does there mere possession of a CC permit beg?