Opinions on Charismatic Renewal

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

Scripture and the Magesterium of the Church teach that all persons receive gifts of the Holy Spirit, but they say nothing to indicate that all persons will receive charismatic gifts.

It is a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church that the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit are received by the Sacrament of Baptism, and that these gifts of the Holy Spirit are strengthened by the Sacrament of Confirmation. That said, both scriptures and the Catechism make the distinction between the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. You cannot make a case from scripture or tradition that it is normal for adult Catholics to not receive charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that is normal or desirable for Catholic to not receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

As I showed through Sacred Scripture, knowledge and wisdom are no less gifts of the same Spirit as are prophesy and tongues.

Have I said otherwise? But do you understand that the sanctifying gifts of knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing as the charismatic gifts of knowledge and wisdom?

 

[MrS]

TobyLue:

This was my experience with the Charismatic movement. **If I’m not mistaken I read in one of their magazines that it actually started in either Ann Arbor or South Bend, **when a group of young Catholics got together with a group of Pentecostals. These young catholics then introduced it to other Catholics.

sorry, had to smile at the comment… it is a LOT closer to the truth (of the movement today) than you might realize.

 

[Lapsed]

I have no personal experience of the Charasmatic Renewal. I was reading this thread out of curiosity when this statement jumped out at me:

Matt16_18:

Unfortunately, many so-called “traditionalist” Catholics are passively hostile to receiving this gift of grace, and that is why they are such ineffective evangelists.

This is nothing but insulting, Matt.

Catholics who are not open to the particular spirituality you embrace are automatically ineffective evangelists?

Reading through your posts in this thread, I can’t help but pick up a sense of smug superiority from them. I do hope I’m misinterpreting your posts because what I have read from you here, coupled with TobyLue’s experiences, lead me to think that this is not the most positive form of Catholic spirituality out there.

 

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

Nobody here is denegrating the Charismatic Renewal. The posts responding to the OP clearly state that the Charismatic Renewal can be a very good thing, and a thing which helps to draw people into the Church, and to bring the Church of God to greater glory.

What I am seeing is those outside the Charismatic Renewal seem to think that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are something to be received by certain Catholics that have a peculiar type of spirituality, and that not every Catholic should be expected to manifest at least some of the charismatic gifts.

What the posts also said is that the Charismatic Renewal can (note that I said can and not always does)produce negative things. It can give rise to abuse, such as is the case with people claiming that anyone who is not a part of the Charismatic Renewal, or anyone who has never spoken in tongues prophesied or healed, has not received baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So what? Some people that proclaim themselves to be “charismatic” misrepresent the Charismatic Renewal and are giving people a mistaken idea about what the Charismatic Renewal is really about. Some so-called “traditionalists” also give a mistaken impression about what traditions Paul tells us we must hold fast to. We don’t throw the authentic traditions of the Catholic Church out the window just because some “traditionalist” Catholics are worked up into a lather that grandpa never received communion in the hand.

Everyone whom has been baptized and confirmed has received baptism of the Holy Spirit. To say otherwise is what is denegrating and incredibly offensive and frankly un-Christian.

No, not everyone that has received the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation has also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. If only this was true!

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a grace that is distinct from the sanctifying graces received by Baptism and Confirmation. Infants in the Eastern Catholic Churches receive Baptism and Confirmation as infants, but the reception of those sacraments does not turn these infants into instant “charismatic” Eastern Rite Catholics!

 

[Matt16_18]

Lapsed:

I have no personal experience of the Charasmatic Renewal.

Then perhaps you don’t understand what I am talking about.

Catholics who are not open to the particular spirituality you embrace are automatically ineffective evangelists?

My point is that those Catholics that are manifesting the charismatic gifts should NOT be seen as practicing a “particular spirituality”. ALL Catholics should manifest charismatic gifts, whether their spirituality is Carmelite, Benedictine, Franciscan or whatever. A “particular spirituality” in which the charismatic gifts are missing, is a spirituality that is missing a vital element of authentic Catholic spirituality. It is Both/And not Either/Or.

Scripture teaches us that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for the purpose of building up the Body of Christ. If one thinks that they don’t need these gifts to evangelize the world, one is sorely mistaken. There is nothing in scriptures that supports such a viewpoint.

Reading through your posts in this thread, I can’t help but pick up a sense of smug superiority from them.

I am sorry that you are getting this impression.

I do hope I’m misinterpreting your posts because what I have read from you here, coupled with TobyLue’s experiences, lead me to think that this is not the most positive form of Catholic spirituality out there.

If TobyLue has experienced something negative from some self professed “charismatics”, that does not mean that Catholics are free to think the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are something that Catholic Church can do without.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

It is a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church that the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit are received by the Sacrament of Baptism, and that these gifts of the Holy Spirit are strengthened by the Sacrament of Confirmation. That said, both scriptures and the Catechism make the distinction between the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. You cannot make a case from scripture or tradition that it is normal for adult Catholics to not receive charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that is normal or desirable for Catholic to not receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Can you provide evidence from Scripture or Tradition that it is normal for all Catholics to receive charismatic gifts, or that it is abnormal otherwise? There is no such teaching.

Have I said otherwise? But do you understand that the sanctifying gifts of knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing as the charismatic gifts of knowledge and wisdom?

Can you provide evidence of this idea?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

What I am seeing is those outside the Charismatic Renewal seem to think that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are something to be received by certain Catholics that have a peculiar type of spirituality, and that not every Catholic should be expected to manifest at least some of the charismatic gifts

Scripture clearly teaches that some gifts are given to some, while other gifts to others. It also includes the non-charismatic gifts in this teaching. What evidence can you provide to say that every Catholic should manifest at least one spiritual gift?

So what? Some people that proclaim themselves to be “charismatic” misrepresent the Charismatic Renewal and are giving people a mistaken idea about what the Charismatic Renewal is really about. Some so-called “traditionalists” also give a mistaken impression about what traditions Paul tells us we must hold fast to. We don’t throw the authentic traditions of the Catholic Church out the window just because some “traditionalist” Catholics are worked up into a lather that grandpa never received communion in the hand.

You seem to have missed the point that I was making that it is you who are making this offensive and not-Church-teaching claim.

No, not everyone that has received the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation has also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. If only this was true!

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a grace that is distinct from the sanctifying graces received by Baptism and Confirmation. Infants in the Eastern Catholic Churches receive Baptism and Confirmation as infants, but the reception of those sacraments does not turn these infants into instant “charismatic” Eastern Rite Catholics!

Can you provide evidence of this from Scripture or Tradition? John chapter 1 would seem to indicate otherwise. Acts 19 would also support the notion that charisms come from confirmation.

 

[Lapsed]

Matt16_18:

My point is that those Catholics that are manifesting the charismatic gifts should NOT be seen as practicing a “particular spirituality”. ALL Catholics should manifest charismatic gifts, whether their spirituality is Carmelite, Benedictine, Franciscan or whatever. A “particular spirituality” in which the charismatic gifts are missing, is a spirituality that is missing a vital element of authentic Catholic spirituality. It is Both/And not Either/Or.

Not according to the Bible.

1Co 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit. And there are diversities of ministries. but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. (DRV)

Diversity, differences. We receive diverse gifts according to the Spirit. It nowhere says that we all receive charasmatic gifts, the charasmatic gifts representing only a few of the gifts of the Spirit. It flatly says that some do, some don’t.

Matt16_18:

Scripture teaches us that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for the purpose of building up the Body of Christ. If one thinks that they don’t need these gifts to evangelize the world, one is sorely mistaken. There is nothing in scriptures that supports such a viewpoint.

I am sorry that you are getting this impression.

This post certainly hasn’t helped it any. You are asserting that those who do not view this particular matter the same as you are less Catholic than you.

One of the things I treasure about our Mother Church is the diverse forms of spiritual expression she encompasses, yet you are here saying that only those which feature this specific aspect are truly Catholic.

If TobyLue has experienced something negative from some self professed “charismatics”, that does not mean that Catholics are free to think the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are something that Catholic Church can do without.

I’m not saying that the Church can do without the charismatic gifts. However, within the Scripture, Tradition, the Magesterium and especially the history of the Church, there is absolutely nothing I have seen which indicates that such gifts are in any way normative.

The chaismatic gifts have been exceptional throughout the history of the Church and I frankly find a movement to make them normative somewhat dubious.

I think if such gifts were of the utmost signifigance you are asserting here that the See of Peter would have spoken to this issue strongly encouraging all the faithful to seek out these gifts. That no such counsel has ever been forthcoming in 2000 years seems to indicate that the Church does not hold them to be of such signifigant import to the ordinary faithful.

 

[Matt16_18]

Matt: … do you understand that the sanctifying gifts of knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing as the charismatic gifts of knowledge and wisdom?

Lazerlike: Can you provide evidence of this idea?

Sure. **Catechism of the Catholic Church

1831** The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. …

109 Cf. Isa 11:1-2.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues – charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

Note that the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit are found in Isaiah 11:1-2, and they include the sanctifying gifts of wisdom and knowledge. Paul lists seven charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1Cor 12:4-5 – wisdom, knowledge, healing, working of miracles, prophecy, various kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of prophetic tongues. Note that the sanctifying gifts of knowledge and wisdom are given to ALL baptized Christians, but the charismatic gifts of knowledge and wisdom are only given to some Christians.

Can you provide evidence from Scripture or Tradition that it is normal for all Catholics to receive charismatic gifts …

Certainly. I highly recommend this book:Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit – Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
by Father Killian McDonnell, O.S.B. and Father George T. Montague, S. M.

“Up to now the teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit has been based on a few scriptural texts whose interpretation was disputed. Now new evidence found in the post-biblical authors demonstrates that what is called baptism in the Holy Spirit was integral to Christian initiation. This means baptism in the Spirit does not belong to private piety but to public official liturgy and is normative. Kilian McDonnell indicates how the scripture evidence was received in the early post-biblical period, and George Montague reveiws the New Testament texts.”​

Scripture clearly teaches that some gifts are given to some, while other gifts to others.

The Catholic Church correctly interprets scripture, and she teaches that ALL Christians receive the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit. She also affirms that Paul teaches that not every Christians receives every charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matt: … not everyone that has received the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation has also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Lazerlike: Can you provide evidence of this from Scripture or Tradition?

Yes, I can. The Apostles (except Thomas, and of course, Judas) receive the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on Easter Sunday. (John 20:22). Forty days later, Jesus tells the Apostles that they will soon receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (Acts 1:5), and nine days later, the Apostles receive the baptism of the Spirit in the upper room on the Feast of Pentecost. (Acts 2:1-4).

After the Apostles are baptized in the Holy Spirit, Peter immediately manifests the charismatic gift of teaching, and he exercises one of the “various gifts of tongues” in his preaching to the Jews assembled for the Feast of Pentecost. When the Apostles receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they begin to manifest other charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit such as working miracles, i.e. they begin to build up the Body of Christ through the supernatural aid of the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles did not build up the Body of Christ by exercising their natural gifts alone, and neither should Catholic in our time attempt to build up the Body of Christ by simply exercising their natural talents alone.

 

[Matt16_18]

Lapsed:

… Diversity, differences. We receive diverse gifts according to the Spirit. It nowhere says that we all receive charasmatic gifts …

Yes indeed, Paul teaches that not everyone receives EVERY charismatic gift. But nowhere does Paul teach that it is normative for Catholics to not receive ANY of the charismatic gifts. We are all called to the great commission by Christ, and we cannot effectively build up the Body without the charismatic gifts. Why would Christ call every Catholic to the great commission and then withhold from ordinary Catholics the charismatic graces that are necessary to accomplish that mission? Christ doesn’t do that, and Paul understood this, and so did the Catholic Church for the first eight centuries of her existence.

One of the things I treasure about our Mother Church is the diverse forms of spiritual expression she encompasses, yet you are here saying that only those which feature this specific aspect are truly Catholic.

You should treasure the different forms of spirituality in the Catholic Church. Carmelite spirituality is not Franciscan spirituality, and there is nothing wrong with that. What I am saying is that it is normative for both Carmelites and Franciscans to manifest the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. How could a Carmelite or Franciscan spiritual director ever be effective without the charismatic gift of the discernment of spirits?

… within the Scripture, Tradition, the Magesterium and especially the history of the Church, there is absolutely nothing I have seen which indicates that such gifts are in any way normative.

I think that you too would benefit by reading Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit – Evidence from the First Eight Centuries. Father McDonnell and Father Montague reach exactly the opposite conclusion that you have reached. …“evidence found in the post-biblical authors demonstrates that what is called baptism in the Holy Spirit was integral to Christian initiation. This means baptism in the Spirit does not belong to private piety but to public official liturgy and is normative.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

Sure.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1831** The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. …

109 Cf. Isa 11:1-2.

2003 Grace is first and foremost…knowledge and wisdom are only given to some Christians.
​

This is all correct. I agree with this 100%

Certainly. I highly recommend this book:

Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit – Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
by Father Killian McDonnell, O.S.B. and Father George T. Montague, S. M. … The Catholic Church correctly interprets scripture, and she teaches that ALL Christians receive the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit. She also affirms that Paul teaches that not every Christians receives every charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit.
​

There isn’t any evidence produced here other than the statements of a priest. These statements do not have any authority. So far as I know they are only his interpretations of the Scriptures. There is no more authority to him saying this then yourself.

My bigger problem with this, however, is with what the fellow said. The idea that new evidence found in “post-biblical authors” is incredibly problematic. A teaching from Tradition would be something that was always taught by the Church. The author says here that the teaching that has always been held (i.e., Tradition) was based on “disputed” biblical texts. In other words, what the quote says is that the teaching that was always taught was not correct and that this new teaching that Charism is necessary for initiation is correct. This directly contradicts the concept of Sacred Tradition. It is no different from the strategy of those whom claim some “new” truth about Christ has been discovered in the Dead Seas Scrolls, or that some traditional doctrine is erroneous because of a newly discovered document somewhere. The truth is that the teaching that was held for 2000 years before this “new” evidence came about is the Tradition of the Church.

What’s worse, this quotation all but teaches the notion very popular in Pentecostal churches that a person isn’t really saved, or doesn’t really have the Holy Spirit, unless they express charisms. This is what I am taking great offense to. The idea has been presented over and over again that unless I express a charism, I don’t have the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I can. The Apostles (except Thomas, and of course, Judas) receive the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on Easter Sunday. (John 20:22). Forty days later, Jesus tells the Apostles that they will soon receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (Acts 1:5), and nine days later, the Apostles receive the baptism of the Spirit in the upper room on the Feast of Pentecost. (Acts 2:1-4).

After the Apostles are baptized in the Holy Spirit, Peter immediately manifests the charismatic gift of teaching, and he exercises one of the “various gifts of tongues” in his preaching to the Jews assembled for the Feast of Pentecost. When the Apostles receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they begin to manifest other charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit such as working miracles, i.e. they begin to build up the Body of Christ through the supernatural aid of the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles did not build up the Body of Christ by exercising their natural gifts alone, and neither should Catholic in our time attempt to build up the Body of Christ by simply exercising their natural talents alone.

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is equated with confirmation by the Catholic Church. The CCC, for instance, makes this clear. Confirmation has always been linked very closely to Pentecost. To say that on Pentecost the Apostles received the charismatic gifts is to say that at confirmation we receive them. This idea is backed up throughout the book of Acts. Chapter 19 is a fantastic example.​

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

ComradeAndrei:

I also personally think that if the Holy Spirit wishes to bestow these charismatic gifts upon someone, we don’t need to join some special “Charismatic Renewal” group.

I agree. Padre Pio clearly had all sorts of amazing gifts, and yet I don’t believe he was ever a part of such a group.

 

[Lapsed]

Matt16_18:

Yes indeed, Paul teaches that not everyone receives EVERY charismatic gift. But nowhere does Paul teach that it is normative for Catholics to not receive ANY of the charismatic gifts.

Can you point out to me precisely where he teaches that every Catholic does receive charasmatic gifts? The quote I provided teaches that some do and some don’t.

Matt16_18:

We are all called to the great commission by Christ, and we cannot effectively build up the Body without the charismatic gifts.

You’ve made this assertion several times now. What is your basis for believing that the charasmatic gifts are essential for effective evangelization?

Paul says that they build up the Church, yes, but nowhere that I have read does he assert that they are necessary to do so.

Matt16_18:

Why would Christ call every Catholic to the great commission and then withhold from ordinary Catholics the charismatic graces that are necessary to accomplish that mission? Christ doesn’t do that, and Paul understood this, and so did the Catholic Church for the first eight centuries of her existence.

He wouldn’t, which is further evidenence that these gifts, though valuable, are not necessary.

Even if such gifts were normative for the first eight centuries, which other than the single book of two priests you have provided no evidence for, the Church has continued to grow for the subsequent twelve centuries without them being normative.

Matt16_18:

You should treasure the different forms of spirituality in the Catholic Church. Carmelite spirituality is not Franciscan spirituality, and there is nothing wrong with that. What I am saying is that it is normative for both Carmelites and Franciscans to manifest the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. How could a Carmelite or Franciscan spiritual director ever be effective without the charismatic gift of the discernment of spirits?

Intelligence, compassion and a good understanding of people are required for an effective spiritual director. Again, I see no necessity for charismatic gifts.

Matt16_18:

I think that you too would benefit by reading Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit – Evidence from the First Eight Centuries. Father McDonnell and Father Montague reach exactly the opposite conclusion that you have reached. …“evidence found in the post-biblical authors demonstrates that what is called baptism in the Holy Spirit was integral to Christian initiation. This means baptism in the Spirit does not belong to private piety but to public official liturgy and is normative.

The last sentence of that should read “was normative.” Even if the good Fathers’ observations are accurate, these gifts have been neither necessary nor normative for 1200 years.

While I certainly understand the desire among some to revive these things, I question the motivation to make them normative. It strikes me as being another private agenda within the Church that is divisive more than unitive. To come here and say that those who do not share in this agenda are ineffective evangelizers is still insulting.

 

[Matt16_18]

Lapsed:

I think if such gifts were of the utmost signifigance you are asserting here that the See of Peter would have spoken to this issue strongly encouraging all the faithful to seek out these gifts. That no such counsel has ever been forthcoming in 2000 years seems to indicate that the Church does not hold them to be of such signifigant import to the ordinary faithful.

… every disciple of Christ, as far in him lies, has the duty of spreading the Faith … the Holy Spirit … distributes the charismata as He wills for the common good (1 Cor. 12:11) …
*Ad Gentes *

… the laity, then, have the exalted duty of working for the ever greater spread of the divine plan of salvation to all men, of every epoch and all over the earth.
Lumen Gentium

“It is not only through the sacraments and Church ministries that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God. He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank… ‘The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit’ (1Cor.12:7). **These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church” **
Lumen Gentium

 

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

There isn’t any evidence produced here other than the statements of a priest. These statements do not have any authority. So far as I know they are only his interpretations of the Scriptures. There is no more authority to him saying this then yourself.

Since you haven’t even read the book, how do you know McDonnell and Montague have not provided any scriptural or patristic evidence for the case that they are making?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

Since you haven’t even read the book, how do you know McDonnell and Montague have not provided any scriptural or patristic evidence for the case that they are making?

I asked you to provide the evidence here. If you want to quote it out of the book then go ahead.

However, I know that they have not because the quote you provided was extremely problematic and I see no reason to doubt that the remainder of the book is equally as problematic. If the individual is of the mindset to author that quote, then this mindset no doubt permeates throughout his book. This is not the sort of mindset that simply pops up here and there. The “new evidence” way of thinking by its very nature affects a persons entire way of thinking.

 

[Matt16_18]

Lapsed:

Can you point out to me precisely where he teaches that every Catholic does receive charasmatic gifts? The quote I provided teaches that some do and some don’t.

What quote have you provided that shows that Paul is teaching that it is normative for some Catholics to not receive ANY of the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit? Pauls says, “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good” (1Cor 12:7). This most does not indicate that Paul believed that it was normal for some adult Catholics to not receive ANY of the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Paul says that they build up the Church, yes, but nowhere that I have read does he assert that they are necessary to do so

Which is simply your private interpretation of what Paul is saying.

Even if such gifts were normative for the first eight centuries, which other than the single book of two priests you have provided no evidence for, the Church has continued to grow for the subsequent twelve centuries without them being normative.

What evidence do you have that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit ever disappeared from the Catholic Church, and that the growth in the Church was accomplished without the supernatural aids of the charismatic gifts?

To come here and say that those who do not share in this agenda are ineffective evangelizers is still insulting.

The gift of teaching is one of the charismatic gifts. The really great Catholic preachers all have this charismatic gift. Healing is also a charismatic gift. Many with this gift are also great evangelizers. There more charismatic gifts than just speaking in tongues. The Catholic Church has never been without men and women that exercised the charismatic gifts, and if the gift of speaking in tongues disappeared among ordinary Cathlolics, that does not mean that the other charismatic gifts also disappeared from the Church. Nor does that mean that the Church grew without the supernatual graces of the charismata.

What we all should be doing is rejoicing that charismatic gifts that were openly manifested by the faithful for the first eight centuries of the Catholic Church have once again been poured out upon the Church! We have been callled to the new evangelization, and God is giving us the supernatural gifts needed to build up the Body of Christ.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

No doubt this is true. But what does any of that have to do with the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Both/And not Either/Or!

I never said “either or”, I am merely pointing out that the Church has had no problems with gaining converts and preaching the Gospel by using more traditional means, such as a reverent Mass.

You make it sound like everyone should be a Charismatic, and that is not true.

… the laity, then, have the exalted duty of working for the ever greater spread of the divine plan of salvation to all men, of every epoch and all over the earth.
Lumen Gentium

Quite true, and this can be done with Charismatic gifts as per the Charismatic Renewal or just ordinary Catholics living out the Faith. To paraphrase St. Francis of Assisi, preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary use words.

“It is not only through the sacraments and Church ministries that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God. He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank… ‘The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit’ (1Cor.12:7). These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church”
Lumen Gentium

Again, this is true, but no where does it say or is taught that we must or should seek out the Charismatic Renewal style of spirituality. What is wrong with following a more traditional style of spirituality?

Originally Posted by Kendy
But when my parish priest said this is not for everyone during his homily, he is telling the parish to be closed to these gifts. … He was subtly discouraging others from participating. I don’t think we all have the same gifts but I do think we are all called to exercise gifts of the spirits.

Matt16_18

No Catholic priest should do this.

I was trying to find it, but could not. Does anyone know about the time some bishop or cardinal reprimanded some “Charismatics” for “speaking in tongues” at the Consecration?

I think there are certainly times when folks use their “Charismatic gifts” as a means of self-promotion. Not to say that such people invalidate the Charismatic gifts by any means, but the Church also says that all gifts come under its jurisdiction. The Church tests all things, and says which are good and true and which are false and untrue.

 

[Lorarose]

I grew up in the middle of the charismatic renewal.
There were many good things,and the first thing I can think of is…
JOY.
Those folks were really into the joy of the majesty and awesomeness of God.
They sang with their hearts, prayed with their hearts, and genuinely reached out to others in need.

Now here are the “cons”
There was definitely an attitude of “God is smiling on us”
Not that that is bad…unless you assume God is not smiling on others just because they are not worshipping Him the same way.
There was a tendency to look down on “regular” catholics as fuddy duddies who just didn’t get it.

The liturgy of the mass was changed to fit the format they wanted it to be.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit was presented to those present as a quasi-sacrament that could be received by responding to a protestant-like altar call and being prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit. As an adult now I find it a little bizarre that a bunch of confirmed catholics acted like they hadn’t already received this gift.
The gift of prophecy and interpretation of the gift of tongues became a bit of a side show that was interesting at the time - but now I see it probably was not prudent to allow it to take center stage.
There was a great emphasis on “feelings”. It seemed like, if they didn’t achieve that charismatic high - they felt maybe they were doing something wrong. And conversely - when they were flying high, they assumed they were doing things right.

I don’t reject it today - but I tend to avoid it.
I feel more comfortable with the notion that Christ in the Eucharist ought to be the focus - and not whatever “gifts” this or that person is going to put on display.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I don’t reject it today - but I tend to avoid it.
I feel more comfortable with the notion that Christ in the Eucharist ought to be the focus - and not whatever “gifts” this or that person is going to put on display.

Amen!

The Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit have been given to faithful Catholics all throughout the history of Holy Mother Church-and they never needed to belong to a certain group.