Opinions on Charismatic Renewal

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twiztedseraph:
Opinions on Charismatic Renewal. What are we to think of this movement in the Church, approved by some, scandalised by others?
I am in my twenties and I was raised amongst the charismatic movement. Both my parents and my grandmother used to “speak in tongues” and they sang lively worship songs at mass and at “worship services”. My early spirtual life was very much engulfed in all things charismatic and I can honestly say that there is much good that came from my exposure to the charismatic movement. It was at a charismatic youth conference that my conversion to Christ began. I experience a very intesense feeling of the love of God for me at this conference. I also had a very powereful experience that confirmed the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Over time, I learned of many great things that the charismatic movement has to offer. Such things include a real zeal for evangelism, a call to a solid and personal relationship with Christ, a love of scripture reading, and a lively faith experience that draws many in. That being said, I no longer consider myself for charismatic anymore because I believe that the Charismatic movement is filled with many errors that tend to be damaging to the faithful. The first error is an over emphasis on an emotional experience rather than on love of Christ. There are so many tears and “being slain in the spirit” experiences that It often removes the focus from our Lord and Savior and puts it on how we “feel”. Which leads me to the second error. All though the movement does not explicitly teach this, it is often comes with the territory of the charismatic movement; this error is the idea that our faith is to be based on feelings. We “feel” the love of Christ, and feel “high on God” (whatever that means). I for one can attest to this. When the intial feelings of my conversion expereince wore off, my faith was almost shipwrecked because my foundation was an emotional experience that I had. I should have founded my faith on God’s word and Reason (Fides et Ratio), but I didn’t and I almost lost my faith. Now, as a volunteer youth minister, I see this problem among the youth alot. The teens have a great emotional experience during some charismatic night of “adoration” and make a great change in their life, but as soon as the emotions wear off, they are back to their old ways. This is always the danger when we base our faith on emotion, rather than on Christ. The third error that I find with the Charismatic movement is abandonment of the traditions of the Church. Charismatics tend to scoff at the Trindentine mass, treating it as if it is outdated. They often ignore traditional expressions of the faith in a sort of “Nothing ever happened before Vatican II” mentality. The fourth error that I see among Charismatics is a sort of eliteism. They behave and sometimes even speak as if the only spirituality in the Church is the Charismatic one. They sometimes think that if you are not a charismatic, that you don’t reall know Jesus. The fourth error that find among the Charismatics is a lack of Orthodoxy. They come dangerously close to ideas like sola fide and absolute assurance of salvation, ideas that come from the Protestants. Fith, they have developed this erroneous idea of “baptism in the spirit”, that is the laying on of hands that they treat as a psuedo-sacrament. It is their sort of rite of initiation into the Charismatic movement. Rather, from the scriptures and the Fathers we learn that “Baptism in the Spirit” is simply baptism and confirmation/chrismation. Sixth, there is way too much “private revelation”. You have heard it before. They start saying things like, “The LORD is telling me that you have this problem because…blah, blah, blah”. I am sorry, but not everyone gets private revelation. If you look at history, it is very rare. Seventh, they misinterprate scripture to support “speaking in tongues” which the bible shows as speaking in other human languanges, not in mumbles. In the end I think that their is much danger to one’s spiritual life in the charismatic movement.
 
What do you mean by different types of spirituality?
Well, I prefer the traditional Tridentine way. Or, we could talk a about Dominicans or Benedictine spirituality. There have been a lot more spiritualities in the Church for a lot longer time than the “Charismatic Renewal”.
Please give me a straight answer, do you think that God does want to exclude some (if not most) Catholics from receiving the charismatic gifts?
I wouldn’t presume to know what God wants to do. However, I will say this much, the Church got on just fine without any “Charismatic” organization. God seems to have bestowed His gifts as He’s saw fit.
What possible connection is there between receiving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit and hearing the Mass said in Latin? Did Paul ever speak about receiving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit in this manner?
Did Paul ever mention the Papacy? Just because it isn’t in the Bible doesn’t prove anything. As other folks have mentioned, Paul doesn’t seem to rate these charismatic gifts as high as the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I went to Tridentine Masses when I was a kid, and I never once saw anyone receive a charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit during the Mass.
Maybe that is a good thing. Quite frankly, I don’t buy “charismatic” gifts at Mass. I see them as attention getting contrivances. You cannot bring up a gift on demand, right at the Consecration for instance.
Much of the time the people in the pews did what I did, recited back to the priest a bunch of “Latin” gibberish without having the slightest clue about what it meant to really speak and understand the language of Latin.
“We didn’t understand the old Latin Mass…” is just a lame excuse. Buy a Missal. It isn’t that hard. I’ve gone to maybe 20 Latin Masses, I have a Missal, and I can read right along with the Mass.
While this may have sounded like speaking in tongues to a Protestant Pentecostal that accidentally wandered into the church …
Well, then get the man a Missal and maybe he’ll learn some real religion.
It is just that I don’t think that there is anything particularly reverent about a dour traditionalist that recites the Gloria as with all the joy of a person that is about to have a root canal without anesthetic.
The Mass makes Calvary present to us in the now. It is not exactly a party. You may see traditionalists as dour, well understand that many from our point of view see your idea of worship as flippant and emotionalistic. Basing your ideas of God and your relationship with Him on feelings is a recipe for disaster. I see a variety of people (Catholic and Protestant) who lose faith because they never had it in the first place.

However, the more traditional (Tridentine and Novus Ordo) I go, the more solid faith I see. You may see us as being sticks in the mud or whatever-I see good solid faith. Faith that sticks in their through thick and thin, that doesn’t rely on any “God highs” to carry on. These people take to heart the words “There is a time for everything…” These are the people that live out what Job said, “The Lord hath given, the Lord hath taken away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!” I will cast my lot among those who are not prone to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine or new theological fad.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a release of the power from on high, not an infusion of the seven sanctifying gifts.
So, where is peculiarly Charismatic stuff like this taught by any legitimate authority in the Church? Baptism of the Holy Spirit? We all have been baptised by water AND spirit and we get confirmed in this with Confirmation. There is no need for some quasi-sacrament to “unleash” the HS.
 
I could make a list of cons from the behavior manifest among “traditionalist” Catholics too. Such lists prove nothing other than some “charismatics” are as wacky as some “traditionalists”.
It is nothing but my own personal preference, but I would much rather be around a overly exuberant charismatic Catholic that is singing his heart out in his praise of God, than a overly solemn “traditionalist” that recites every prayer of the Mass as if he was reciting a funeral dirge.
All I was doing was giving my personal experience, as the op seemed interested in the topic of charismatic and not traditional.
You aren’t the only one who could make a list of “cons” concerning traditionalists. I could too.

I also prefer the joyfulness of the charismatics over the approach of those who would prefer to go back to pre-VII.
 
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MrS:
Take the time to offer a dictionary meaning of heterodox.
That WAS a dictionary definition.
but only your rambling meanings of what you perceive as traditionalist.
As I said, there are as many meanings of what it means to be a “traditionalist” as there are people annointing themselves with this name. No ortthodox Catholic can deny that some who say that they are “traditionalists” are heterodox in their theology and practice, e.g. SSPXers.
Traditionalists (IMHO) are of like mind…
And that is exactly where we disagree. So-called traditionalists are NOT like minded, they are all over the map, from some who are perfectly orthodox, to those who are heterodox.
Much of the charismatic movement …
The Charismatic Renewal is not a movement, and it is not a “style” of spirituality.
Anything that changes, decreases, alters, replaces etc, the degree of reverence due to God in His Mass… is suspect to me.
As it should.
 
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TobyLue:
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not belong only to the Charismatic Movement.
Which is the point I have been making! The charismatic gifts should be manifest among the Carmelites, the Dominicans, the Franciscans, etc. . If they are not, then there is something wrong, since these are the supernatural gifts given by the Holy Spirit for building up the Body of Christ. The charismatic gifts are given to the whole church by the Spirit as the Spirit wills.
 
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LatinCat:
I am in my twenties
Me too.
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LatinCat:
The first error is an over emphasis on an emotional experience rather than on love of Christ. There are so many tears and “being slain in the spirit” experiences that It often removes the focus from our Lord and Savior and puts it on how we “feel”.
I would add that if you say that a chant like Pange Lingua gives you chills they look at you puzzled. Or that the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom makes gives me the same feelings that they experience at the Charismatic events, you get the same reaction. I share your sentiments
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LatinCat:
Charismatics tend to scoff at the Trindentine mass, treating it as if it is outdated. They often ignore traditional expressions of the faith in a sort of “Nothing ever happened before Vatican II” mentality.
I experience this all the time when I talk with Charismatic worshipers about my spirituality. I find the Tridentine High Mass and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom very charismatic. I don’t like it how the message often seems to be that you can’t feel the Holy Spirit unless you have been slain in the spirit.
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LatinCat:
The fourth error that I see among Charismatics is a sort of eliteism. They behave and sometimes even speak as if the only spirituality in the Church is the Charismatic one. They sometimes think that if you are not a charismatic, that you don’t reall know Jesus.
Ditto, been there, done that. I went to one of those adoration nights that you talked about, this was after my re-version in my early 20s. I’m sorry, I could not get into it, it is not what drew me to the faith in the first place, and it is not how I experience Christ. It took the group I was in nearly 2 whole days until they finally realized that I already have a personal relationship with Christ and that I do experience him. I nearly jumped up and down when read what I just quoted. I only fell back once durring one of these Charismatic Masses and that is because the Priest was actually physically pushing on me telling me to accept it. So I imagined myself at the foot of the royal doors of the iconstasis, they opened and a thick cloud of incense rolled out, if I’m going to be slain in the spirit, I might as well imagine myself in an environment where I actually feel it. Needless to say I will not be going to one of those Masses again for a while, if people are acting like I never experienced Jesus before, then that doesn’t make me too optimistic about the Charismatic movement.
 
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