Opinions on Charismatic Renewal

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

I asked you to provide the evidence here.

It is easy to ask a simple question that has a complex answer. If you really want to learn something and not just be contentious, then please read the book that I have recommended.

I have personally met Father Montague and I have never heard him say anything that was unorthodox. He is a really wonderful priest, and a great teacher. Honestly, I have given you a lead on a great book that would answer the question that you have asked, and I am not saying this because I am brilliant, but because Fr. Monague is brilliant.

… the quote you provided was extremely problematic and I see no reason to doubt that the remainder of the book is equally as problematic.

I haven’t provided any quotes from the book. What I posted was a quote from a review of the book from someone who has read the book. Please read this book before you pass a negative judgement upon it! Father Montague deserves at least that much from you.

 

[Matt16_18]

ComradeAndrei:

… I am merely pointing out that the Church has had no problems with gaining converts and preaching the Gospel by using more traditional means, such as a reverent Mass.

Of course the Church has no problems with reverent Masses in gaining converts. Does God ever want irreverent Masses? Why even make this point?

The principal means of bring about the grace of Christ is by the “ministry of the word and the sacraments.” The clergy has a unique and indispensable role within the Church in administering the sacraments and in preaching the word, but the laity are not without their obligations in building up the Body of Christ. The laity have both have the right and the DUTY to exercise the charisms for the building up of the Body of Christ.The apostolate of the Church aims primarily at announcing to the world by word and action the message of Christ and communicating to it the grace of Christ. The principal means of bringing this about is the ministry of the word and the sacraments. Committed in a special way to the clergy, it leaves room however for a highly important part for the laity, the part namely “of helping on the cause of truth” …

The apostolate is carried on through the faith, hope and love which the Holy Spirit diffuses in the hearts of all members of the Church… From the reception of these charisms or gifts, including those which are less dramatic, there arise for each believer the right and duty to use them in the Church and in the world for the good of humankind and for the upbuilding of the Church.

Decree on Apostolate of Lay *Apostolicam Actuositatem *

You make it sound like everyone should be a Charismatic, and that is not true.

Who are the Catholics that God wants to exclude from receiving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?

 

[gusano]

Lazerlike42:

Does this** intend to imply** that those not participating in the renewal are either lacking all the truth or are not welcoming the Spirit?

Hi Lazerlike42

No, I do not intend to imply that ,
But now that you bring it up,
I agree with you both of those are real possibilities.

I don’t know, …The Holy Spirit, I imagine, would certainly know
who welcomes Him and who doesn’t .
Who lacks, and who has much.
"To him whom much is given, much will be required."


I sure Hope He rejoices in that you and I are among those who WELCOME Him

By the way,Laserlike42 I envision You being 42, and having a LOOK in your eye like St. Paul when he STARED at Elymas, the Magician… (Acts 13: 9)

After you read that, tell me if I am way off base.

May the Love of Christ fill you
til you "spill-out-all-over-the place !


gusano

 

[Matt16_18]

Lorarose:

Now here are the “cons” …

I could make a list of cons from the behavior manifest among “traditionalist” Catholics too. Such lists prove nothing other than some “charismatics” are as wacky as some “traditionalists”.

It is nothing but my own personal preference, but I would much rather be around a overly exuberant charismatic Catholic that is singing his heart out in his praise of God, than a overly solemn “traditionalist” that recites every prayer of the Mass as if he was reciting a funeral dirge.

 

[gusano]

“Schismatic traditionalists” is an oxymoron. Just because some so-called “traditionalists” are out of line, we don’t reject tradition. And just because some “charismatics” may be heterodox, we should never reject the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. (That rejection can be passive as well as active).

Jesus did not intend for us to bring forth the Kingdom of God by natural means alone. We cannot effectively do the work of the evangelization of the world if we are only working as natural men. To be effective evangelists, we must work be open to the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit – which are essentially gifts given for evangelization and building up the Body of Christ.
[/quote]

I appreciate your insight, Matt 16_18.

Could you enlighten me on what HETRODOX is, and
what TRADITIONALIST is…
in a way a sixth grader can understand ?



thanks

gusano

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Of course the Church has no problems with reverent Masses in gaining converts. Does God ever want irreverent Masses? Why even make this point?

I’m making this point because it is totally fine to follow different types of spirituality.

Who are the Catholics that God wants to exclude from receiving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?

I didn’t say that “God wants to exclude” anyone from receiving Charismatic gifts. How about this, what if we “traditionalists” seek after the gifts of the Holy Spirit through, say, the Tridentine Mass. What is wrong with that? Maybe the Spirit is giving us the gifts of piety, knowledge, and fortitude?

It is nothing but my own personal preference, but I would much rather be around a overly exuberant charismatic Catholic that is singing his heart out in his praise of God, than a overly solemn “traditionalist” that recites every prayer of the Mass as if he was reciting a funeral dirge.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that I’d much rather be among “traditionalists” praying the Mass with piety than someone whoopin’ and hollerin’ “in the Spirit”.

 

[gusano]

scriabin:

Lazerlike, your response to the OP is right–on–target.

Tobylue, couldn’t agree with you more.

Some groups make ‘baptism of the Spirit’ into an 8th sacrament.
But, if participation into these charismatic groups leads to error, is it really the Holy Spirit at work? Or is it our *own * spirits at work?

I have seen that it is very easy for any one of us to each has gone their own way
at any level, at any time .

 

[Matt16_18]

gusano:

I appreciate your insight, Matt 16_18.

Thanks for the compliment, but I am really only paraphrasing what is written in the Catechism.CCC 2003 … charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

Could you enlighten me on what HETRODOX is, and
what TRADITIONALIST is…

Heterodox * adj.*

1. Not in agreement with accepted beliefs, especially in church doctrine or dogma.
2. Holding unorthodox opinions. Traditionalist is a word that has been hijacked by a certain element in the Church, and it can have as many different meanings as there are persons that anoint themselves with the name. Some “traditionalists” believe that if grandpa didn’t do it that way in the Church when he was growing up, then no one else should be able to do it differently either. (My grandpa had to cut trees with an ax and plow with a mule, but just because he did that way, I don’t believe that he would have turned down a chainsaw or an air conditioned tractor if it would have been offered to him.)

There are certain Traditions that Christ bestowed to the Church, and he demands that we preserve those Traditions. In this sense, all Catholics are called to be traditionalists. But many so-called traditionalists can’t seem to separate what is merely changeable discipline from unchangeable doctrine. That is why we have the nuttiness of “traditionalists” that think that receiving communion on the tongue or saying the Mass in Latin is something that Christ established, instead of being what they truly are, which are innovations and modifications to the discipline of the early Church. Much of what “traditionalists” rigidly cling to are nothing but innovations in Church discipline that were unknown to the earliest Christians.

The western Church started saying the Mass in Latin because Latin, not Greek, became the common language of the people, and the western bishops thought it would be a good idea if the ordinary person attending Mass could understand what was being said. When the bishops of Vatican II came up with the same idea, you would think that the great apostasy had begun, if you listen to the lunatic ravings of some of the more rabid of the “traditionalists”. The Protestants have their own brand of rigid and goofy “traditionalists” too, such as the fundamentalists that seem to think that that if they could go back in to the era of the Apostles, that they would find a Bible Church where Paul preached the word from the King James Version.

 

[Ianjo99]

So let me get this straight.

I personally feel invigorated with the Holy Spirit when I am reciting the rosary, going to a Tridentine Mass, or listening to Gregorian Chants.

You feel alive with the Holy Spirit when you interact with a group and share your experiences and pray together all that good stuff.

I don’t see why different people can’t have different ways to reach God through Jesus (keeping within church law, of course). Why do I have to dance and sing worship songs to prove to you that I am a Catholic?

Personally I don’t like this whole “Charismatic Renewal” thing. It doesn’t really do anything for me, and it smacks of some protestant appeasement tactic used to *"*get" converts to the church. The beauty and dignity of the mass coupled with the reverence of the Eucharist is something I wouldn’t trade for one second for your Charismatic approach.

If you, however, find these approaches better, then by all means continue. I have no problem with people doing this, as long as they don’t make me feel I have to love that type of worship, and as long as they don’t preach heresy.

The only thing I have seen with the contempory aspects of the Church has been a disgusting lack of respect for the Eucharist, the idea that anything traditional is archaic and antiquated, and such brilliant ideas as teaching that God does not send us to hell for one mortal sin.

If these types of things are the result of stuff such as CR, then you can call me anything you like, from fuddy-duddy to grandpa, and I’ll just be the one sitting in a pew all by himself praying the rosary and getting closer to God without your grand renewal.

 

[Matt16_18]

ComradeAndrei:

I’m making this point because it is totally fine to follow different types of spirituality.

What do you mean by different types of spirituality?

I didn’t say that “God wants to exclude” anyone from receiving Charismatic gifts.

Please give me a straight answer, do you think that God does want to exclude some (if not most) Catholics from receiving the charismatic gifts?

How about this, what if we “traditionalists” seek after the gifts of the Holy Spirit through, say, the Tridentine Mass. What is wrong with that?

What possible connection is there between receiving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit and hearing the Mass said in Latin? Did Paul ever speak about receiving the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit in this manner?

I went to Tridentine Masses when I was a kid, and I never once saw anyone receive a charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit during the Mass. Much of the time the people in the pews did what I did, recited back to the priest a bunch of “Latin” gibberish without having the slightest clue about what it meant to really speak and understand the language of Latin. While this may have *sounded * like speaking in tongues to a Protestant Pentecostal that accidentally wandered into the church …

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that I’d much rather be among “traditionalists” praying the Mass with piety than someone whoopin’ and hollerin’ “in the Spirit”.

I too prefer a reverent Mass. It is just that I don’t think that there is anything particularly reverent about a dour traditionalist that recites the Gloria as with all the joy of a person that is about to have a root canal without anesthetic.

 

[steve_b]

Matt16_18:

And the err if they do that. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit** is not a sacrament, it is a great gift of grace from God. Unfortunately, many so-called “traditionalist” Catholics are passively hostile to receiving this gift of grace**, and that is why they are such ineffective evangelists.

Non Serviam!

What part of the HS did one not receive at baptism and confirmation?

 

[Matt16_18]

Ianjo99:

So let me get this straight.

I personally feel invigorated with the Holy Spirit when I am reciting the rosary, going to a Tridentine Mass, or listening to Gregorian Chants.

All well and good. But what does feeling “invigoratred” have to do with say, the charismatic gift of prophecy? Have you ever been so invigorated by a rosary that you personally uttered in the Spirit a prophecy for the community, or received a word of knowledge by going to a Tridentine Mass?

I don’t see why different people can’t have different ways to reach God through Jesus (keeping within church law, of course).

Who said that this isn’t possible? A woman that is a clositered contemplative is certaintly trying to reach union with God in a way that is different than that a woman that is raising her children at home.

Personally I don’t like this whole “Charismatic Renewal” thing. It doesn’t really do anything for me, and it smacks of some protestant appeasement tactic used to “get” converts to the church.

I would say that this comment reveals that you really don’t understand what the charismatic renewal is really all about.

The only thing I have seen with the contempory aspects of the Church has been a disgusting lack of respect for the Eucharist, the idea that anything traditional is archaic and antiquated, and such brilliant ideas as teaching that God does not send us to hell for one mortal sin.

If these types of things are the result of stuff such as CR …

They aren’t.

 

[Matt16_18]

What part of the HS did one not receive at baptism and confirmation?
[/quote]

We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the Sacrament of Baptism.

The charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are NOT sacramentally bestowed graces, they are actual graces that the Spirit gives as the Spirit wills. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a release of the power from on high, not an infusion of the seven sanctifying gifts.

The difference between sanctifying grace and actual grace is standard Baltimore Catechism stuff. Were you ever exposed to the Baltimore Catechism?

 

[MrS]

Heterodox * adj.*

1. Not in agreement with accepted beliefs, especially in church doctrine or dogma.
2. Holding unorthodox opinions. Traditionalist is a word that has been** hijacked by a certain element in the Church**, and it can have as many different meanings as there are persons that anoint themselves with the name. Some “traditionalists” believe that if grandpa didn’t do it that way in the Church when he was growing up, then no one else should be able to do it differently either. (My grandpa had to cut trees with an ax and plow with a mule, but just because he did that way, I don’t believe that he would have turned down a chainsaw or an air conditioned tractor if it would have been offered to him.)

, if you listen to the lunatic ravings of some of the more rabid of the “traditionalists”. The Protestants have their own brand of rigid and goofy “traditionalists” too, such as the fundamentalists that seem to think that that if they could go back in to the era of the Apostles, that they would find a Bible Church where Paul preached the word from the King James Version.

Thanks… you reaffirmed by long-standing apprehension of the people in the CM.

Take the time to offer a dictionary meaning of heterodox… but only your rambling meanings of what you perceive as traditionalist.

By the way, gramps might accept new inventions to pursue the real goal of cutting trees… but I guess he would say the value of the tree was the tradition. And preserving the maximum value of the tree came first.

Traditionalists (IMHO) are of like mind… preserving the maximum value of the tradition (Mass, prayer life, scripture, doctrines etc) while still being open to inventions (air conditioning, book publishing, conferences, synods, Vat II etc) that only add to the tradition, not replace it.

Much of the charismatic movement (again IMHO) appears to me as an attempt to replace the “tradition” of the Mass and its concentration on God with peripheral gestures and personal expressions (gifts??) that divert attention to the glory of/in the individual.

Anything that changes, decreases, alters, replaces etc, the degree of reverence due to God in His Mass… is suspect to me.

 

[Lazerlike42]

me:

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is equated with confirmation by the Catholic Church. The CCC, for instance, makes this clear. Confirmation has always been linked very closely to Pentecost. To say that on Pentecost the Apostles received the charismatic gifts is to say that at confirmation we receive them. This idea is backed up throughout the book of Acts. Chapter 19 is a fantastic example.

I still haven’t seen anybody refute this. The Charismatic gifts come via confirmation.

 

[Lapsed]

Matt,

Perhaps though you and I are both speaking english, we may not be speaking the same language here. I understand the charismatic gifts to be specifically those listed by Paul in 1Corinthians 12:8-10:

To one, by the Spirit, there is given a word of wisdom; and to another, by the same Spirit, there is given a word of knowledge: to another, by the same Spirit, faith: to another, by the same Spirit, gifts of healing: and to another, miracles: and to another, prophecy: and to another, the discerning of spirits: and to another, [divers] kinds of tongues: and to another, the interpretation of tongues. (DRV)

Quite obviously, not everyone in the Church receives any of these particular gifts.

The other gifts of the Holy Spirit, faith, hope, charity, chastity, obedience, love of poverty, etc., I understand as charisms: gifts of the Spirit, yes; charismatic gifts, no.

Paul specifically counsels us to seek for what he calls the better gifts: "But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way. " (1 Corinthians 12:31 DRV) Which of course leads to his most wonderful exposition on charity, ending with, “And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13 DRV), which from the context are clearly the better gifts he is refering to.

Yes, we all receive gifts from the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. None of us can follow Christ without that particular gift. What I am saying, which is in line with the quote I provided from Paul earlier is that we do not all receive charismatic gifts. Not all gifts of the Holy Spirit are charismatic gifts. Hence my observation earlier that the charismatic renewal is a specific form of spirituality within the Church, wherein the main charism of the path is that of the charismatic gifts.

This does not mean that those who are not formally part of the charismatic renewal cannot recieve those gifts, nor does it mean that charismatics cannot receive other gifts, obviously.

We all receive various charisms to various degrees in order to live the life God calls us to. We do not all receive charismatic gifts. As I quoted from Paul earlier:

1Corinthians 12:4-7(DRV):

Now there are diversities of gifts; but the Spirit is one. And there are diversities of ministrations; but the Lord is one. And there are diversities of energies; but God, who worketh all in all men, is one. And to each man, there is given a manifestation of the Spirit, that it may aid him.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Lapsed:

Matt,

Perhaps though you and I are both speaking english, we may not be speaking the same language here. I understand the charismatic gifts to be specifically those listed by Paul in 1Corinthians 12:8-10:

Quite obviously, not everyone in the Church receives any of these particular gifts.

The other gifts of the Holy Spirit, faith, hope, charity, chastity, obedience, love of poverty, etc., I understand as charisms: gifts of the Spirit, yes; charismatic gifts, no.

Paul specifically counsels us to seek for what he calls the better gifts: "But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way. " (1 Corinthians 12:31 DRV) Which of course leads to his most wonderful exposition on charity, ending with, “And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13 DRV), which from the context are clearly the better gifts he is refering to.

Yes, we all receive gifts from the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. None of us can follow Christ without that particular gift. What I am saying, which is in line with the quote I provided from Paul earlier is that we do not all receive charismatic gifts. Not all gifts of the Holy Spirit are charismatic gifts. Hence my observation earlier that the charismatic renewal is a specific form of spirituality within the Church, wherein the main charism of the path is that of the charismatic gifts.

This does not mean that those who are not formally part of the charismatic renewal cannot recieve those gifts, nor does it mean that charismatics cannot receive other gifts, obviously.

We all receive various charisms to various degrees in order to live the life God calls us to. We do not all receive charismatic gifts. As I quoted from Paul earlier:

1Corinthians 12:4-7(DRV):

This shows that Paul’s command to seek the higher gifts is nota command to ask for tongues. What Paul is saying is that things like faith, hope, and charity are the greatest gifts of the Spirit, far greater than tongues or prophesy. We are to desire these gifts with earnestness. This is a great parallel to Paul’s list of the way the Spirit assigns gifts from chapter 12 in which tongues and interpretation of tongues is last.

 

[TobyLue]

If TobyLue has experienced something negative from some self professed “charismatics”, that does not mean that Catholics are free to think the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are something that Catholic Church can do without.

The thing is that it was not just one group that I belonged to. I dont think I said that the Church I attended a few others. We had visits by many other groups and I even attended some at different cities. I’m not going to sit here and judge the individuals hearts because I made many friends and saw the joy and love that people had in their hearts and their love for God. I’m thankful that it got me to read more scripture, or shall I say reading scripture as I was doing none at all. But there was some smugness about many and as I said doing their own thing. Too much emphasis was placed on “what gifts do you have?, WHAT? You dont speak in tongues!?” and “You need to ask God and demand that he give you the gift of tongues” Believe me it was not only in the CM but also in some Pentecostal Churches. To the point that we (and I will admit that I was among them) that we identified ourselves as being “Pentecostal Catholics”. We had it all because we not only were Catholics, but** we **had the “gifts”.

CCC 2003 … charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not belong only to the Charismatic Movement. These gifts are very evident in my parish in the Church today. Our sermons are full of Wisdom. I have made a remark to our pastor at times that his homily felt like I was hit on the head with a 2x4. The is conseling and understanding our needs and the needs of others. The parish strives through thick and thin. The school, CCD, Bible study, etc., teaches with great knowledge and it is stressed that ALL knowledge comes from God. There are great many devotions and the mass celebrations are with great piety. Fear of the Lord is evident by the many confessions that are heard every week. If we just step back and look at our parishes I bet you will find, under the many abuses, the Lord working and the HS giving these gifts to many in our mist. I think we tend to focus too much in trying to correct some abuses and that we all must get that “great feeling of jumping, hand clapping and shouting ‘halleluja’, brother” that we loose sight of Our Lord because we give in to our “feelings”.

 

[steve_b]

Matt16_18:

We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the Sacrament of Baptism.

The charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are NOT sacramentally bestowed graces, they are actual graces that the Spirit gives as the Spirit wills. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a release of the power from on high, not an infusion of the seven sanctifying gifts.

The difference between sanctifying grace and actual grace is standard Baltimore Catechism stuff. Were you ever exposed to the Baltimore Catechism?

Yep, I’m from the pre Vatican II days. I was trained on the Baltimore Catechism. I also was trained as an altar boy by a wonderful Polish priest who was one of the few fortunate survivors of a Nazi concentration camp during WWII. As training, we had to genuflect at least 100 times with no wobbles before we could go on the altar. Our Latin had to be perfect and black shoes only, perfectly polished.

I miss those days in a way. But I wouldn’t go back. I like looking forward.

 

[steve_b]

Lapsed:

Lapsed no more as of Jan 3, 2006!

Congradulations and blessings.