Orans vs. Handholding

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Oh John. You do understand that according to the Rubics nothing can be added to the liturgy, right?

As much as you would like to be the final word and authority here in spite of the Church taking no official position, there is nothing being added to the liturgy, any more than Charismatics raising and waving their hands in prayer are changing the rubrics. I personally find that uncomfortable as I am a more reserved person, but I recognize that different people express themselves differently and just bear with it when I end up at a Charismatic mass.

As I’ve said, I’m not sure what about this upsets you so as it usually takes a deep experience of being personally hurt to generate this level of condescension and antagonism. That you are so determined to prevent someone else from experiencing God in a way that is meaningful to them and does not hurt you in any way is very disconcerting. I will pray for you to come to peace with whatever might be so troubling you and will discontinue my discussion here as there is obviously nothing to be gained, and the last thing I want to do is bring anyone further discomfort.

Peace be with you,
John

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

As much as you would like to be the final word and authority here in spite of the Church taking no official position, there is nothing being added to the liturgy, any more than Charismatics raising and waving their hands in prayer are changing the rubrics. I personally find that uncomfortable as I am a more reserved person, but I recognize that different people express themselves differently and just bear with it when I end up at a Charismatic mass.

As I’ve said, I’m not sure what about this upsets you so as it usually takes a deep experience of being personally hurt to generate this level of condescension and antagonism. That you are so determined to prevent someone else from experiencing God in a way that is meaningful to them and does not hurt you in any way is very disconcerting. I will pray for you to come to peace with whatever might be so troubling you and will discontinue my discussion here as there is obviously nothing to be gained, and the last thing I want to do is bring anyone further discomfort.

Peace be with you,
John

I’m sorry that you find my posts to be condescening and antagonistic. I have tried to be very nice. Giving quotes from websites is neither. In the meantime you have given no facts to back your position.
I have no need to have a last word on the situation. A call to your Bishop’s office should clear it up for you.
BTW, if you read through my posts you will see how my old parish was destroyed by those who brought in those innovations. (yes, destroyed. So many left that my Archdiocese will close or cluster it within the next year) How our seniors who had no way to mass except by the church bus, felt no sense of community by the holding hand innovation, yet went along in pain.
If you read also through many of these posts, you will see that tons of people don’t like it. So, should their comfort level not be considered as well?

 

[Mom_of_5]

My hubby and I toured Italy with the AD Lumina pilgrimage from our diocese a year ago. Mass every morning. The bishop, three priests, one deacon and his wife were in our group. We held hands and sang. We held hands and prayed. The most beautiful Mass was at the altar of St. Peter’s Chair at St. Peter’s in Rome. I cannot tell you the magnificance of this Mass. We held hands, hugged. No one from the vatican came and told us not to. My husband and I are anxious to return someday soon. We left a bit of our hearts there. We went to celebrate my husbands Catholic conversion and our marriage blessing.

When a parish loses members, it is usually because it has NOT shown love to its membership, not because of too much warmth. False piety and not enough love and understanding of your brothers and sisters can cause a huge exodus of parishioners. My husband converted from LDS because of the love shown him by our parish members, our family, and he says, me too. We must always be respectful of others whether in church or on the road. We show good example, then others want to know about our faith. How do you know that the person who took your had during The Lord’s Prayer is not the next pope, or maybe, just maybe, Jesus Himself. Maybe we would put up with a bit of discomfort if Jesus took our hand, why wouldn’t we put up the same discomfort for the child of God next to you?

I am perhaps too simplistic. I don’t have time to read the “rules”. I just know that I do what the "spirit " moves me to do and I hope it is pleasing to God. No one else, nothing else, really matters, does it? If I please God, I will certainly be treating my fellow man with love and respect, no matter what religion he/she is.

Love and peace,
Mom

 

[netmilsmom]

Mom of 5:

When a parish loses members, it is usually because it has NOT shown love to its membership, not because of too much warmth. False piety and not enough love and understanding of your brothers and sisters can cause a huge exodus of parishioners.

What you say is true to a point, but the love of our neighbor can never replace the love of Our Lord. Fellowship is wonderful but praise and honor of the Holy Eucharist is much more important. It is not for you to judge the piety of another by calling it false. The devil can make one think that a pious person is a less than loving person when one wants to see it that way.
My parish had that exodus not because the people did not feel loved but rather because they were losing their Catholic base. Some went to my new, very traditional parish. Some to the traditional Lutheran church in the area. In this case, the DRE’s idea of “showing love” was not the congregations. They didn’t want to go Charistmatic, but it was all that was offered. Had the staff openned their hearts to the needs and wants of their parishioners, they would have seen that “showing love” was not physical in this case.

How do you know that the person who took your had during The Lord’s Prayer is not the next pope, or maybe, just maybe, Jesus Himself.

Jesus Himself would understand a human being’s comfort zone. He made us this way, afterall. Charity goes both ways. Please read this quote from the St. Louis diocese, maybe you will understand…
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?

BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989

No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

 

[fix]

No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

Amen

 

[netmilsmom]

fix:

Amen

And Amen again.
It’s amazing to me that some people “feel” but have no sympathy for the other side of the coin.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Education of the people who commit either of these acts is needed.

First – orans is the priestly gesture. He makes that gesture because it has meaning other than only “offering.” He is offering ON BEHALF of us all… in the room… in the world… with the saints and angels.

Anybody else who decides to hold their hands up that way is redundant. My question is… since the entire Mass is a prayer (a meal, a sacrifice, a remembrance)… why don’t those people hold their hands up the entire 55 minutes of the Mass?

That’s because it has a meaning other than “offering.”

And laypeople holding their hands up that way in Mass is pretty new, too. It’s certainly NOT in the GIRM for laypeople to take it upon themselves to commit the orans posture.

Only when it is in the GIRM will I do it. I’m an obedient Catholic.

Second - handholding during Mass is pretty new. Been being committed as far as my experience goes for only the last dozen years or so. Doesn’t mean it’s RIGHT. It just means it’s been committed only that long.

Ya see anybody at the Masses held at the Vatican holding hands? …

… I didn’t think so.

Holding hands is something that boyfriend and girfriend… or husband and wife… do. It’s a romantic gesture.

Oh. A parent holds a child’s hand to cross the street for their safety.

Last time I looked… there’s no traffic in the church during Mass.

Thanks for asking.

 

[EA_Man]

Mot Juste:

There are a lot of people on this forum who don’t like handholding during the Our Father, yet handholding is an entrenched practice in many many American parishes. I’ve also seen many people here who are outspoken against the “orans” posture (hands held out to either side at chest level, palms up). I’m posting this poll to find out if the people who don’t like handholding are the same people who don’t like orans. The reason I am interested is because the orans seems like the most charitable “starting” posture for a handholder during the Our Father. If your neighbor is also a handholder, then, of course, you hold hands. If your neighbor is a non-handholder, then you remain in orans. (The recommended starting posture for non-handholders would be hands clasped in front.)

Would this make non-handholders feel less pressured? Or would they still be steamed about laypeople assuming a priestly pose?

–Bill

I don’t see any problem with either of these or hand shaking. Frankly I don’t understand why people are so adamant against these practices - it’s between the worshippers and God.

Peace

 

[palmas85]

Mom of 5:

When a parish loses members, it is usually because it has NOT shown love to its membership, not because of too much warmth. False piety and not enough love and understanding of your brothers and sisters can cause a huge exodus of parishioners. My husband converted from LDS because of the love shown him by our parish members, our family, and he says, me too. We must always be respectful of others whether in church or on the road. We show good example, then others want to know about our faith. How do you know that the person who took your had during The Lord’s Prayer is not the next pope, or maybe, just maybe, Jesus Himself. Maybe we would put up with a bit of discomfort if Jesus took our hand, why wouldn’t we put up the same discomfort for the child of God next to you?

I am perhaps too simplistic. I don’t have time to read the “rules”. I just know that I do what the "spirit " moves me to do and I hope it is pleasing to God. No one else, nothing else, really matters, does it? If I please God, I will certainly be treating my fellow man with love and respect, no matter what religion he/she is.

Love and peace,
Mom

I am glad that your husband converted, especially from something as extreme and non-Christian as LDS. But I do have to ask one question. Pleses do not take offense. I mean none but your response troubles me deeply. If the reason for his conversion was the love shown by the community and not the devotion and love HE felt for God, was the conversion real and sincere or was he simply looking for a comfortable place to be? Many people join religions for reasons other than to praise and worship God. Many do it as an attempt to find something lacking in their lives, for acceptance, to impress someone or for any variety of reasons. And to go a bit further, if someone leaves a Parish or a Church for that matter, because he doesn’t feel the “love” of the community, maybe he was looking for something other than the glorification and worship of God in the first place.

You say you don’t have time to read the rules, and apparently follow your own feelings towards God and feel that is enough. I don’t believe it is enough however. To the best of my knowledge Catholics have never felt that way towards the faith. But it is exactly the way most Protestants feel about theirs. The Catholic Church actually has rules that need to be followed and adhered to. And as far as I know, Catholics are not excused from that even if they think that they move as the Spirit moves them.

 

[otm]

Veronica Anne:

Second - handholding during Mass is pretty new. Been being committed as far as my experience goes for only the last dozen years or so. Doesn’t mean it’s RIGHT. It just means it’s been committed only that long.

I have a picture that was taken of a Mass in the mid 1960’s in which everyone was holding hands during the Our Father. It may not have been as wide spread then as it is now - it is approaching ubiquitous - but it is certainly not of recent vintage. The issue was widespread enough that the GIRM released in the 1970’s was seen (by those who opposed it) as a potential for causing it to cease. It didn’t, because the issue was not addressed therein, in spite of the fact that the bishops generally knew it was occuring. It was also not addressed in the most recent re-write of the GIRM, and that after many years of protest by those who opposed it.

To say that it is not permitted because it is not addressed is to misunderstand how liturgical laws are decided and written.
Veronica Anne:

Ya see anybody at the Masses held at the Vatican holding hands? …

… I didn’t think so.

Nor would I necessarily expect to, as it is more an issue within the United States. I also don’t see anyone at Masses held at the Vatican kneeling as long as we do in the United States, as that, too, is intrinsic to the United States.
Veronica Anne:

Holding hands is something that boyfriend and girfriend… or husband and wife… do. It’s a romantic gesture.

Oh. A parent holds a child’s hand to cross the street for their safety.

Last time I looked… there’s no traffic in the church during Mass.

Thanks for asking.

It is also a sign of unity in thought and word. Some like it. Some don’t. And some, like Archbishop Chaput of Denver, see it as something in which charity should reign - those that like to hold hands should be allowed, and those that don’t should not be required to do so.

 

[otm]

palmas85:

I am glad that your husband converted, especially from something as extreme and non-Christian as LDS. But I do have to ask one question. Pleses do not take offense. I mean none but your response troubles me deeply. If the reason for his conversion was the love shown by the community and not the devotion and love HE felt for God, was the conversion real and sincere or was he simply looking for a comfortable place to be? Many people join religions for reasons other than to praise and worship God. Many do it as an attempt to find something lacking in their lives, for acceptance, to impress someone or for any variety of reasons. And to go a bit further, if someone leaves a Parish or a Church for that matter, because he doesn’t feel the “love” of the community, maybe he was looking for something other than the glorification and worship of God in the first place.

You say you don’t have time to read the rules, and apparently follow your own feelings towards God and feel that is enough. I don’t believe it is enough however. To the best of my knowledge Catholics have never felt that way towards the faith. But it is exactly the way most Protestants feel about theirs. The Catholic Church actually has rules that need to be followed and adhered to. And as far as I know, Catholics are not excused from that even if they think that they move as the Spirit moves them.

I seem to remember a quote that might put your heart at ease: “God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him”.

I, too read the statement by Mom of 5, and noticed the same thing. However, I also know a number of fervent Mormons, and while I would not disagree with your characterization of the LDS Church, their heartfelt devotion to God and to Christ as they know him would often put those who profess to follow the Christ of the Gospels to shame, and quickly. From her posts I see someone who is a fairly devout and strong Catholic Christian. If the Holy Spirit lead him to the Catholic Church because of the love shown by other Catholics, I am willing to trust that same Holy Spirit to lead him to a love of Christ, one that he may well have had already, albeit to a truly distorted understanding of who Christ is, as an LDS member.

It may be that he saw the exclusivness that is inbred to the LDS faith, and found the Gospel message of “Love one another as I have loved you” to be more truly expressed by the Catholics he came in contact with through his wife. I am not unaware of the multitude of reasons that people may join the Catholic Church, but I am also aware of how members of the LDS Church are treated at times should they quit and join, for example, the Catholic Church. While the LDS amy not be as facile at shunning as, say, Jehova’s Witnesses, there are ample stories around of how they do in practice. Further, it has been my long observation that one who is active in the LDS faith is close to consumed by it; their entire social world is pretty much contained within the confines of their church. To quit the Church is to break off from almost anyone and everyone that you know as friends and associates; for that reason alone, it is very hard for one to convert.

I suspect that she was simply providing a few minor details of a very long story, most of which would not be relevant to her post. I wouldn’t worry too much about him.

 

[ncjohn]

otm:

It is also a sign of unity in thought and word. Some like it. Some don’t. And some, like Archbishop Chaput of Denver, see it as something in which charity should reign - those that like to hold hands should be allowed, and those that don’t should not be required to do so.

Exactly! While I have no problem with those who prefer not to, I just have not been able to figure out why it is that some people so vehemently favor forbidding it for those who find it deeply meaningful.

I have also been told, although I don’t have a copy of the GIRM to personally verify it, that the beating of the breast during the Confiteor, at the consecration, and during the “Lord I am not worthy…” is also no longer present in the GIRM. Yet I have not heard anyone making the claim that doing so is “adding to the liturgy”. Quite the opposite, in my experience although I’ve not surveyed it scientifically, the very people opposed to the holding of hands are usually actively beating their breasts. This could be an indicator that the opposition to the handholding is really more related to opposition to the “new mass” or the changes in general from V2, or a preference for the old Tridentine mass. Again, I have no problem with that, but again it is a preference and we need to stop imputing evil motives to those who may not share our preferences.

Peace,
John

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

It is also a sign of unity in thought and word. Some like it. Some don’t. And some, like Archbishop Chaput of Denver, see it as something in which charity should reign - those that like to hold hands should be allowed, and those that don’t should not be required to do so.

Charity goes both ways.

And some like the Bishop of St. Louis (and Charlotte, I might add) are discouraging it…

Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?

BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989

No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

I have also been told, although I don’t have a copy of the GIRM to personally verify it, that the beating of the breast during the Confiteor, at the consecration, and during the “Lord I am not worthy…” is also no longer present in the GIRM.

1. QUERY: During the recitation of certain formularies, for example, the Confiteor, Agnus Dei, Domine, non sum dignus, the accompanying gestures on the part of both priest and people are not always the same: some strike their breast three times; others, once during such formularies. What is the lawful practice to be followed? REPLY: In this case it is helpful to recall: 1. gestures and words usually complement each other; 2. in this matter as in others the liturgical reform has sought authenticity and simplicity, in keeping with SC art. 34: “The rites should be marked by a noble simplicity.” Whereas in the Roman Missal promulgated by authority of the Council of Trent meticulous gestures usually accompanied the words, the rubrics of the Roman Missal as reformed by authority of Vatican Council II are marked by their restraint with regard to gestures. This being said: a. The words, Through my own fault in the Confiteor are annotated in the reformed Roman Missal with the rubric: “Thy strike their breast” (Ordo Missae no. 3). In the former Missal at the same place the rubric read this way: “He strikes his breast three times.” Therefore, it seems that the breast is not to be struck three times by anyone in reciting the words, whether in Latin or another language, even if the tripled formulary is said (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa). One striking of the breast is enough. Clearly, also, one gesture is enough in those languages in which the words expressing fault are translated in a simpler form, for example in English, I have sinned through my own fault; in French Oui, j’ai vraiment peche’. b. The special restraint of the reformed Roman Missal is also clear regarding the other texts mentioned, the Agnus Dei and Domine, non sum dignus, expressions of repentance and humility accompanying the breaking of the bread and the call of the faithful to communion.
   
   As noted in the Reply no. 2 of the comments in Not 14 (1978) 301, when the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI say nothing, it is not to be thereby inferred that the former rubrics must be followed (see no. 51 above). The reformed Missal does not supplement but supplants the former Missal. The old Missal at the Agnus Dei had the directive “striking his breast three times” and the same for the Domine, non sum dignus. But because the new Missal says nothing on this point (Ordo Missae, nos. 131 and 133), there is no reason for requiring any gesture to be added to these invocations: Not 14 (1978) 534-535, no. 10.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And some like the Bishop of St. Louis (and Charlotte, I might add) are discouraging it…

And here you sum it up. They might be “discouraging it” but they are not banning it, nor do I believe they have the ability to without the Church taking that position. While the Bishop of St. L (or the Bishop of Charlotte) are entitled to their opinions, that is all they are here–they have no force of law at the current time. As such, continuing to demonize people who find it meaningful and who are doing nothing wrong is divisive and uncharitable.

Nobody is being forced to participate. I have never in the 20 years or so I’ve seen this practice seen anyone pressure anybody else to hold their hand if they didn’t want to. If you don’t like it, don’t do it, but PLEASE stop telling me I’m doing something wrong because I do want to. This is nothing more than a matter of personal preference, just as the beating of the breast or the raising of the hands at a Charismatic mass.

I dislike Country music, but I don’t leave someone’s home in protest if they have it on, or go change the radio channel. I detest green bean casserole, but I don’t feel pressured to take any as it’s passed around at Thanksgiving dinner, or feel offended because other people like it and want to eat it. Life is full of things that people do for their own reasons, and as long as they are not morally or legally wrong it is not up to me or you to sit in judgment and take those away from them. We have to respect and cherish our diversity and be willing to bear our crosses patiently for each other. I realize that for whatever reason this is a heavy cross for you, and I wish I could help you bear it, but for now I can only continue to pray for you to come to peace with it.

Peace,
John

 

[ncjohn]

palmas85:

If the reason for his conversion was the love shown by the community and not the devotion and love HE felt for God, was the conversion real and sincere or was he simply looking for a comfortable place to be? Many people join religions for reasons other than to praise and worship God. Many do it as an attempt to find something lacking in their lives, for acceptance, to impress someone or for any variety of reasons. And to go a bit further, if someone leaves a Parish or a Church for that matter, because he doesn’t feel the “love” of the community, maybe he was looking for something other than the glorification and worship of God in the first place.

The Catholic Church actually has rules that need to be followed and adhered to. And as far as I know, Catholics are not excused from that even if they think that they move as the Spirit moves them.

You have tried to be gentle and charitable here in your concerns for Mom of 5 and her husband, and I am going to try to do the same, although much here concerns me. Like you, I mean no offense.

First, as to following the Spirit or the rules, IMHO, our primary responsibility in life is to discern the workings of the Spirit and follow them faithfully. Rules, no matter how well intentioned, or how much thought and prayer was given to them, are still man-made and cannot overrule what our consciences tell us, as our conscience is considered to be God talking to us through the Spirit. In a perfect world there would be no conflict between rules and “movement of the Spirit” as the rules would be perfectly thought out and our discernment of the Spirit would never be in errror. Unfortunately, we were not created with perfect knowledge and can only do our best to discern the Spirit. While we are to give great weight to the “rules” in our discernment, we are still obligated at the end to act within the dictates of our conscience, always aware that it can be improperly formed and that we must be ready to repent if we find it in error. Slavishness to the rules without concern for the forming of the heart is also dangerous, as both Jesus and Paul made clear in numerous places, as we are saved by our love, not by the rules and “works of the law.”

As to Mom of 5’s husband and his reasons for converting, I agree that some may intellectually come to a conclusion of where they believe God is truly to be found. I believe though that many or most come to a change of faith tradition (or the stirrings of a call to faith) based on what they see in a faith community. I would tend to disagree about that necessarily being a bad thing. I recently left our home parish because it has been totally transformed by the priest, who is part of the new breed of young priests coming out of the seminary glorifying the “old Church” and totally rejecting Vatican 2. We now travel 45 minutes over the mountains to another parish where the call to gospel life as a result of prayer and discernment of God’s will is abundantly reflected in the community.

The highest praise we can give God is to love Him through His creation. The “final exam” is the parable of the sheep and goats, where Jesus makes clear that it is not those who are praying “Lord, Lord” who will enter the kingdom, but those who are feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, etc. In other words, we will enter the kingdom if we praise him by tending to his presence in each other. It is seeing his presence in a loving and welcoming community that will draw people to the Catholic faith. Without that loving community, I would suggest that the Catholic faith is not truly present.

While I agree that joining, or changing parishes, for the “warm, fuzzy” boost to our self-esteem cannot be the goal or the purpose, nor can doing so for coercive reasons such as a future spouse’s demands, God works slowly and patiently however in bringing us to Himself. I know I was a “pew potato” for years after coming back to the Church as God slowly put people in my path to model the life I was being called to. You have to get them to the table before you can feed them, and if the table isn’t attractive, who is going to come? It’s God’s work to “set the hook” when it’s time. It’s our job to “throw out the bait” by being the loving, welcoming people He made us to be. As John said, “you cannot claim to love the God you cannot see if you don’t love the neighbor you can see.” James makes it even clearer that it isn’t faith unless it’s taking action. People are converted and transformed by the loving example of God’s people, so it is only natural that they will be drawn to those who display that. Over time, transformation deepens as we learn to live that love ourselves.

As OTM commented, I think there is a long and still devloping story here and we can safely leave these two people in God’s loving hands.

Peace,
John

 

[fix]

ncjohn:

Exactly! While I have no problem with those who prefer not to, I just have not been able to figure out why it is that some people so vehemently favor forbidding it for those who find it deeply meaningful.

I have also been told, although I don’t have a copy of the GIRM to personally verify it, that the beating of the breast during the Confiteor, at the consecration, and during the “Lord I am not worthy…” is also no longer present in the GIRM. Yet I have not heard anyone making the claim that doing so is “adding to the liturgy”. Quite the opposite, in my experience although I’ve not surveyed it scientifically, the very people opposed to the holding of hands are usually actively beating their breasts. This could be an indicator that the opposition to the handholding is really more related to opposition to the “new mass” or the changes in general from V2, or a preference for the old Tridentine mass. Again, I have no problem with that, but again it is a preference and we need to stop imputing evil motives to those who may not share our preferences.

Peace,
John

I have a few observations about this post. Many who oppose this innovation do so because they believe they are compelled to participate. This is very true in my parish. It is no longer one’s private “option”, but almost mandated by the people and the priest. In my parish everyone up on the altar holds hands, too.

These novelties beget other novelties, once we start thinking the mass is our private property we begin to add more and more.

There should be a spirit of obedience and unity in the Latin rite, but for too long in many places it has become an experiment and those who want to be faithful are called mean spirited.

All many ask for is authentic unity and obedience to the mind of the Church.

 

[ncjohn]

ncjohn:

as we are saved by our love, not by the rules and “works of the law.”

Before anyone comes after me thinking I am saying that we are “saved by works” of our own will, that is not what I meant when I wrote this. We are saved only by the grace and mercy of God, but in cooperation with our acceptance of that grace through our loving actions springing from faith.

Peace,
John

 

[ncjohn]

fix:

I have a few observations about this post. Many who oppose this innovation do so because they believe they are compelled to participate. This is very true in my parish. It is no longer one’s private “option”, but almost mandated by the people and the priest. In my parish everyone up on the altar holds hands, too.

These novelties beget other novelties, once we start thinking the mass is our private property we begin to add more and more.

There should be a spirit of obedience and unity in the Latin rite, but for too long in many places it has become an experiment and those who want to be faithful are called mean spirited.

All many ask for is authentic unity and obedience to the mind of the Church.

If there is truly a “mandate” in your church, I sympathize with you and would be in agreement that that goes beyond being charitable. I have never personally encountered that in any of the many parishes where I have attended mass throughout the country, and in a few places out of the country.

I would disagree though that whether or not one holds hands makes one more or less “faithful.” To me, it’s when we start imputing motives to those with other preferences that the division and trouble starts and the unity disappears. “Authentic unity” must paradoxically recognize diversity since God did not make us all the same. I personally don’t consider anyone mean-spirited until they try to imply that I am not faithful or devoted to God.

We have to continually focus on seeing Jesus in each other, despite his many “distressing disguises.”

Peace,
John

 

[fix]

ncjohn:

If there is truly a “mandate” in your church, I sympathize with you and would be in agreement that that goes beyond being charitable. I have never personally encountered that in any of the many parishes where I have attended mass throughout the country, and in a few places out of the country.

I live in a very heterodox diocese. I know many others face similar chanllenges.

I would disagree though that whether or not one holds hands makes one more or less “faithful.”

That was not my intention. I was intending to mean faithful to the mind of the Church in how we ought to act during the mass. I have seen no evidence that the Church encourages hand holding, but have seen evidence the church discouarges it.

To me, it’s when we start imputing motives to those with other preferences that the division and trouble starts and the unity disappears.

I agree. It has to be a case by case example. In many ways I think it is done out of ignorance or not to feel excluded because everyone is doing it.

“Authentic unity” must paradoxically recognize diversity since God did not make us all the same.

Authentic unity is thinking and acting with the mind of the Church. We are not congregationalists.

We have to continually focus on seeing Jesus in each other, despite his many “distressing disguises.”

Very true, but that in no way means we must minimize what is correct.