Order, Order! Order in the Universe!

[Linusthe2nd]

Another gem by Msgr. Charles Pope. The order of the universe, things great and small, living and inanimate shout, " God exists, How do you think we came to be, how do you think everything moves and acts with such order and purpose? " Give it a read, very inspiring.

blog.adw.org/2015/03/order-order-in-the-universe-a-meditation-on-the-wisdom-that-creation-reflects/

Linus2nd

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Atheists like Stephen Hawking always have an answer to Order in the universe.

The answer is called Multiverse. In other words, an infinity of universes.

Out of that infinity there is bound to be at least one universe that cries out Order!

Another universe might even cry out Chaos!

Unfortunately for the atheist, there is no material; evidence, and never will be, that other universes have always existed, continue to exist, or will forever come into existence.

 

[wcknight]

why does it even matter IF there is or is not another universe. Our universe is so vast that no one will ever reach its end or its middle or even the next galaxy. Heck it is very unlikely anyone will ever reach the next closest star in the next generation or next 1000 generations. It is far more likely that God will say time is up, it is judgement day than it is for us humans to travel to the stars. I would think true space travel is still thousands of years away,

 

[Oreoracle]

The “atheist answer” depends on what you mean by “order”. If by order you are referring to the laws of physics, I would argue that the laws of physics don’t need to be caused to exist; their existence is a consequence of the existence of the material universe.

For an analogy, let’s say I have a set S of numbers, containing only 2,4, and 6. It is a “law” that all elements of S are even. Note that the law is determined solely by the elements of S. It comes with the package, and needn’t be caused apart from stipulating the existence of S.

 

[Oreoracle]

why does it even matter IF there is or is not another universe. Our universe is so vast that no one will ever reach its end or its middle or even the next galaxy.

The concern isn’t the ability to travel to other universes. The argument some atheists use (though I don’t feel inclined to use it) goes like this: The Fine-Tuning Argument holds that it is so incredibly unlikely that our universe’s set of laws would allow life to exist that they appear to have been fine-tuned by a creator. But if Multiverse Theory is correct, there could be infinitely many universes with different sets of laws, most of which are not hospitable to life. So it isn’t remarkable at all that some universe allows for life, because the Multiverse essentially got to roll the dice infinitely many times–a few rolls were bound to work out.

 

[tonyrey]

The concern isn’t the ability to travel to other universes. The argument some atheists use (though I don’t feel inclined to use it) goes like this: The Fine-Tuning Argument holds that it is so incredibly unlikely that our universe’s set of laws would allow life to exist that they appear to have been fine-tuned by a creator. But if Multiverse Theory is correct, there could be infinitely many universes with different sets of laws, most of which are not hospitable to life. So it isn’t remarkable at all that some universe allows for life, because the Multiverse essentially got to roll the dice infinitely many times–a few rolls were bound to work out.

You are wise to be disinclined to use that argument because it is based on the assumption that mindless particles can produce rational activity…

 

[tonyrey]

Atheists like Stephen Hawking always have an answer to Order in the universe.

The answer is called Multiverse. In other words, an infinity of universes.

Out of that infinity there is bound to be at least one universe that cries out Order!

Another universe might even cry out Chaos!

Unfortunately for the atheist, there is no material; evidence, and never will be, that other universes have always existed, continue to exist, or will forever come into existence.

It wouldn’t make any difference if they did, Charlie! The abyss between mind and matter would still remain…

 

[Oreoracle]

You are wise to be disinclined to use that argument because it is based on the assumption that mindless particles can produce rational activity…

In all seriousness, the reason I dislike the argument is that it’s more defensive than necessary. The Fine-Tuning Argument purports to solve some problem, namely the problem of accounting for life when life is so unlikely in the first place. But it doesn’t follow that some metaphysical explanation is warranted just because a scenario is unlikely. Loads of mundane things are unlikely, but we needn’t invoke fine-tuning to make ourselves feel more comfortable with their existence.

Imagine someone taking a fistful of sand, tossing it into the wind, and after observing the resulting mess, exclaiming, “Look at how improbable it is that these grains of sand would fall on the ground in this exact configuration! How do you explain that?” You would think that person was loony. Of course we think of life as being more special than sand, but that’s because we are alive; anthropocentrism at its finest.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It wouldn’t make any difference if they did, Charlie! The abyss between mind and matter would still remain…

That is, for the materialist, an abysmal abyss.

 

[tonyrey]

In all seriousness, the reason I dislike the argument is that it’s more defensive than necessary. The Fine-Tuning Argument purports to solve some problem, namely the problem of accounting for life when life is so unlikely in the first place. But it doesn’t follow that some metaphysical explanation is warranted just because a scenario is unlikely. Loads of mundane things are unlikely, but we needn’t invoke fine-tuning to make ourselves feel more comfortable with their existence.

Imagine someone taking a fistful of sand, tossing it into the wind, and after observing the resulting mess, exclaiming, “Look at how improbable it is that these grains of sand would fall on the ground in this exact configuration! How do you explain that?” You would think that person was loony. Of course we think of life as being more special than sand, but that’s because we are alive; anthropocentrism at its finest.

We don’t even come into the picture! The difference between animals and inanimate objects is obvious even to a child. It is a genetic fallacy to attribute the belief in fine tuning to a desire to “make ourselves feel more comfortable” with the existence of mundane objects". Without further investigation life is not obviously desirable or valuable. Schopenhauer for one believed it would have been better if life had never existed on this planet. Its drawbacks have to be taken into account as well as its advantages.

The outstanding feature of life is that it is purposeful and the attempt to reduce it to mechanistic processes is doomed to self-contradiction. Its most powerful aspect is the human mind. Is a biological machine capable of understanding itself - or anything else? If so precisely how does it perform that miracle?

 

[tonyrey]

That is, for the materialist, an abysmal abyss.

Very neat! It is not for nothing that materialism leads to despair - and in some cases suicide.

 

[Partinobodycula]

…how do you think everything moves and acts with such order and purpose?

PURPOSE!!!

What purpose?? I don’t see any purpose. The universe seems to be headed toward heat death, or a Big Freeze, or a Big Rip, or a Big Crunch, or any number of other very unpleasant fates. And the amazing thing called life seems to be nothing more than an exercise in futility. Everything dies. Eventually every life form that has ever existed on this planet will be unceremoniously snuffed out. If there’s a purpose to creation then it seems to be a cruel one. It seems to be for things to struggle, suffer, and die. Galaxies, stars, planets, and people, they all pass away. They exist but for a short while, and then they’re forever forgotten. Where’s the purpose in that?

You see a purpose, because you want to see a purpose. People see what they want to see. But the hardest thing to see, is the truth. You’re going to die, and there will have been no purpose in your life beyond that which you chose to give it. Your life is meaningless, other than the fact that it’s your life, and that alone makes it precious. If you’re looking for a purpose, beyond the fact that you’re alive, then you’re overlooking the greatest purpose of all, to live.

Don’t live in anticipation of something. Live in appreciation of something. Life. Just live it well.

 

[Oreoracle]

Without further investigation life is not obviously desirable or valuable.

That would make for a great topic, but I don’t think the moral value of life is relevant to this thread. My point was that the Fine-Tuning Argument asserts that life requires some explanation beyond what physics could offer because the conditions for life are improbable. I will grant for the sake of argument that the conditions for life are improbable, but it doesn’t follow that it must have some profound metaphysical explanation anymore than the configuration of sand grains requires such an explanation, improbable or not.

The outstanding feature of life is that it is purposeful and the attempt to reduce it to mechanistic processes is doomed to self-contradiction.

It could be that we may never have a fully mechanical explanation for, say, the mind, but that doesn’t directly support the Fine-Tuning argument or even a more general position that the universe is in some way ordered. It could be that the mind is just weird and the universe is chaotic. In fact, if things were chaotic, the inability to explain the mind and other complicated phenomena would be expected, no?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It is far more likely that God will say time is up, it is judgement day than it is for us humans to travel to the stars. . ,

Maybe they are not mutually exclusive. God’s garden is quite big, I would think that it may take a very long time to make it all flower, even as persons with glorious bodies.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

PURPOSE!!!
You see a purpose, because you want to see a purpose. People see what they want to see. But the hardest thing to see, is the truth. You’re going to die, and there will have been no purpose in your life beyond that which you chose to give it. Your life is meaningless, other than the fact that it’s your life, and that alone makes it precious. If you’re looking for a purpose, beyond the fact that you’re alive, then you’re overlooking the greatest purpose of all, to live.

Don’t live in anticipation of something. Live in appreciation of something. Life. Just live it well.

Is it possible that you don’t want to see a purpose in life?

There is no purpose in just being alive.

That’s equivalent to saying that the purpose of a stone is to be a stone.

A purpose implies design, intention, end to be achieved, reason for existing.

You apparently see nothing but universal death.

Others see eternal life.

If we exist for a purpose, it is not merely to die.

If we exist for a purpose, it is far more reasonable to believe that our purpose is directed to an end other than death.

A purposeless existence mandates atheism, since atheism alone guarantees a purposeless existence.

And since atheism cannot be proven, what purpose do you achieve in subscribing to it?

Atheism certainly does not promote any purpose because there is no one to promote it.

Don’t expect others to gleefully follow you down that black brick road to nowhere.

 

[Partinobodycula]

Is it possible that you don’t want to see a purpose in life?

What I don’t want to do is to live life as if it’s something to be endured. When it’s not about enduring life, it’s about embracing life. It’s about appreciating the wonders of the world, and not worrying about earning rewards in the next one. Live life as if you love it, as if it’s precious, as if it’s fleeting, as if it’s a gift.

There is no purpose in just being alive.

There’s no greater purpose than being alive. To love, and hope, and marvel, and dream. And yes even to struggle, and persevere, and grow old, and die. But to do so with an honor and a glory that befits the wondrous gift that is life. The purpose of life is to live it with the passion that such an unwarranted gift deserves.

You apparently see nothing but universal death.

I see life. I don’t see death. Things come, and they go, and that’s part of life, and we marvel at what has come before us, and we wonder at what shall come after us, and each in their own way contributes to the beauty that is us. Life is precious precisely because it ends, not in spite of its end. Life is a gift. How great of a gift it is, is up to you.

If we exist for a purpose, it is not merely to die.

The purpose isn’t merely to die, the purpose is to live. Not forever, but for today, and in honor of that which came before us, and in the hope of that which shall come after us. We live, and we die, and hopefully we do so with the same fortitude, and passion, and grace, that we admire in those who have come before us.

A purposeless existence mandates atheism, since atheism alone guarantees a purposeless existence.

I don’t advocate a purposeless existence, I advocate an impassioned one.

And since atheism cannot be proven, what purpose do you achieve in subscribing to it?

I’m not an atheist.

Atheism certainly does not promote any purpose because there is no one to promote it.

God has given me life, what greater purpose can there be but to live it well. I don’t get to determine its length. But I do perhaps, get to determine its worth.

Don’t expect others to gleefully follow you down that black brick road to nowhere.

What others choose to do is up to them. I expect to be ridiculed and dismissed, but in that I find no shame. The value of my life isn’t to be judged by the opinions of others.

 

[oldcelt]

PURPOSE!!!

What purpose?? I don’t see any purpose. The universe seems to be headed toward heat death, or a Big Freeze, or a Big Rip, or a Big Crunch, or any number of other very unpleasant fates. And the amazing thing called life seems to be nothing more than an exercise in futility. Everything dies. Eventually every life form that has ever existed on this planet will be unceremoniously snuffed out. If there’s a purpose to creation then it seems to be a cruel one. It seems to be for things to struggle, suffer, and die. Galaxies, stars, planets, and people, they all pass away. They exist but for a short while, and then they’re forever forgotten. Where’s the purpose in that?

You see a purpose, because you want to see a purpose. People see what they want to see. But the hardest thing to see, is the truth. You’re going to die, and there will have been no purpose in your life beyond that which you chose to give it. Your life is meaningless, other than the fact that it’s your life, and that alone makes it precious. If you’re looking for a purpose, beyond the fact that you’re alive, then you’re overlooking the greatest purpose of all, to live.

Don’t live in anticipation of something. Live in appreciation of something. Life. Just live it well.

Agreed…nor is it orderly…it is chaotic in the extreme. All one need do is look at the craters on the moon and the remnants of the same, right here at home.

John

 

[tonyrey]

Agreed…nor is it orderly…it is chaotic in the extreme. All one need do is look at the craters on the moon and the remnants of the same, right here at home.

John

If the basic structure of the universe were chaotic in the extreme not only would it be impossible for life to survive for billions of years it would be impossible to know anything, let alone surmise that chaos is supreme…

 

[tonyrey]

That would make for a great topic, but I don’t think the moral value of life is relevant to this thread.

If morality is irrelevant there is no reason to be reasonable! Obligations would be illusions…

My point was that the Fine-Tuning Argument asserts that life requires some explanation beyond what physics could offer because the conditions for life are improbable. I will grant for the sake of argument that the conditions for life are improbable, but it doesn’t follow that it must have some profound metaphysical explanation anymore than the configuration of sand grains requires such an explanation, improbable or not.

To exalt physics as the final explanation is itself a metaphysical explanation! Materialism is self-refuting…

It could be that we may never have a fully mechanical explanation for, say, the mind, but that doesn’t directly support the Fine-Tuning argument or even a more general position that the universe is in some way ordered. It could be that the mind is just weird and the universe is chaotic. In fact, if things were chaotic, the inability to explain the mind and other complicated phenomena would be expected, no?

If things were predominantly chaotic it would be impossible for rational beings to exist, let alone explain anything…

 

[tonyrey]

What I don’t want to do is to live life as if it’s something to be endured. When it’s not about enduring life, it’s about embracing life. It’s about appreciating the wonders of the world, and not worrying about earning rewards in the next one. Live life as if you love it, as if it’s precious, as if it’s fleeting, as if it’s a gift.

There’s no greater purpose than being alive. To love, and hope, and marvel, and dream. And yes even to struggle, and persevere, and grow old, and die. But to do so with an honor and a glory that befits the wondrous gift that is life. The purpose of life is to live it with the passion that such an unwarranted gift deserves.

I see life. I don’t see death. Things come, and they go, and that’s part of life, and we marvel at what has come before us, and we wonder at what shall come after us, and each in their own way contributes to the beauty that is us. Life is precious precisely because it ends, not in spite of its end. Life is a gift. How great of a gift it is, is up to you.

The purpose isn’t merely to die, the purpose is to live. Not forever, but for today, and in honor of that which came before us, and in the hope of that which shall come after us. We live, and we die, and hopefully we do so with the same fortitude, and passion, and grace, that we admire in those who have come before us.

I don’t advocate a purposeless existence, I advocate an impassioned one.

I’m not an atheist.

God has given me life, what greater purpose can there be but to live it well. I don’t get to determine its length. But I do perhaps, get to determine its worth.

What others choose to do is up to them. I expect to be ridiculed and dismissed, but in that I find no shame. The value of my life isn’t to be judged by the opinions of others.

:clapping: An eloquent eulogy of life, order, value and purpose.